What do we do when there are too many people on the planet?

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Rau said:
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Vonsalza:
The act of creating life?
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No, the act of sexual intercourse. It is not a mandatory act. It is discrete and chosen.
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Yes, specifically scheduled when the odds of creating life are at their lowest - for that reason.

Which is fine! Just don’t call this “open to life”.
 
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Rau said:
No, the act of sexual intercourse. It is not a mandatory act. It is chosen.
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What he is saying is just the intent of taking a candy bar from a store would be stealing then. Once you intend it, you basically did the same as stealing.

Only its not candy its contraception… not that you stole… but you used.
 
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anon65111186 said:
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Rau:
No, the act of sexual intercourse. It is not a mandatory act. It is chosen.
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What he is saying is just the intent of taking a candy bar from a store would be stealing then. Once you intend it, you basically did the same as stealing.
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I’m not sure your straw man here is accurate, but on that separate sentiment Jesus was pretty “ok” with it.

“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
 
Vonsalza said:
Yes, specifically scheduled when the odds of creating life are at their lowest - for that reason.
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Yes. No moral teaching opposes that.
Vonsalza said:
Which is fine! Just don’t call this “open to life”.
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Only because you require the phrase to mean what it does not mean.🤷‍♂️ There is no obligation to have lots of sex, to do so ignorant of fertility, to keep having children,… yet you speak as though “open to life” means all these things.
 
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Very interesting. I have heard a little bit about porn causing ED but I think the bigger problem right now is that men are losing their sperm.
 
Vonsalza said:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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So beware, anyone looking at a woman with thoughts of abstinence, has already committed abstinence with her.
 
Rau said:
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Vonsalza:
Yes, specifically scheduled when the odds of creating life are at their lowest - for that reason.
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Yes. No moral teaching opposes that.
Vonsalza said:
Which is fine! Just don’t call this “open to life”.
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Only because you require the phrase to mean what it does not mean.🤷‍♂️
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Hey, that’s fine Rau.

“Open to life” per that Catholic understanding apparently allows the use of non-artificial means to deliberately frustrate its creation.

For non-Catholics, this appears dubious. But by all means, run your own show.
 
Vonsalza said:
“Open to life” per that Catholic understanding apparently allows the use of non-artificial means to deliberately frustrate its creation.
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To defer or space conceptions - yes. Since it’s a Catholic teaching, that might be the place to look for meaning and understanding.
Vonsalza said:
For non-Catholics, this appears dubious. But by all means, run your own show.
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Do you mean those with minimal awareness of Catholic teachings might misunderstand? Yes, I agree.
 
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Vonsalza said:
“Open to life” per that Catholic understanding apparently allows the use of non-artificial means to deliberately frustrate its creation.
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What is being frustrated? That’s like saying the fisherman is frustrated from a catch when no fish are in the sea, and he knew it!
 
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anon65111186 said:
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Vonsalza:
“Open to life” per that Catholic understanding apparently allows the use of non-artificial means to deliberately frustrate its creation.
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What is being frustrated? That’s like saying the fisherman is frustrated from a catch when no fish are in the sea.
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The issue here with NFP is that the fisherman is being very selective about when he decides to go fishing based on his probability of getting a catch.

This is a critical difference you’re simply unwilling to accept. And I understand completely.
 
Rau said:
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Vonsalza:
“Open to life” per that Catholic understanding apparently allows the use of non-artificial means to deliberately frustrate its creation.
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To defer or space conceptions - yes. Since it’s a Catholic teaching, that might be the place to look for meaning and understanding.
Vonsalza said:
For non-Catholics, this appears dubious. But by all means, run your own show.
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Do you mean those with minimal awareness of Catholic teachings might misunderstand? Yes, I agree.
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Sure. When “open to life” means something very different in a Catholic context, they’ll certainly need the Church to interpret it for them because it’s a fairly clear departure from that would be naturally assumed.

You’re right about that.
 
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I see 2 key points in the teaching HV and similar:
  1. children are a good. Be positively disposed to having children;
  2. there are times when not becoming pregnant is wise and /or responsible (and it for each couple to discern). Do not use contraception, but there is no wrong in coming together during the natural infertile times.
 
Vonsalza said:
The issue here with NFP is that the fisherman is being very selective about when he decides to go fishing based on his probability of getting a catch.
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The Fisher of men tells the fisherman that’s okay, but only for good reason, and he obeys his master and all is well.

At least he is not cutting his hooks off or cutting his nets to go out whenever he feels. His master doesn’t like that, and told him not to.
 
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Rau said:
I see 2 key points in the teaching HV and similar:
  1. children are a good. Be positively disposed to having children;
  2. there are times when not becoming pregnant is wise and /or responsible (and it for each couple to discern). Do not use contraception, but there is no wrong in coming together during the natural infertile times.
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I get this too. We all back up to a redoubt of some sort when our opposition makes a semi-decent point.

I’ve done it a billion times.
 
Rau said:
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Vonsalza:
When “open to life” means something very different in a Catholic context,
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Different than what? The expression is inherently non-specific.
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As I explained, “open to life” in the Catholic understanding clearly allows for the use of deliberate non-artificial means to frustrate conception.

This runs contrary to what most would consider “open to life” to mean. But as you stated, the Church will have to explain it to them.
 
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