What do you tell someone who accuses you of worshipping statues?

[Truthstalker]

A few randomized thoughts:

I think that if you, prior to conversion, were in a lifestyle of idol worship, statues could be a snare to you. If I recall correctly, Augustine expressed some reservations along those lines.

You might also look at why the Orthodox use icons but not statues, and why the West seems to reverse this.

I think some application for Romans 14 may apply here - you should not make your brother stumble. And if you are in a situation that idol-worshipers may interpret your behavior as worshiping the statue, you should consider altering your behavior so as to provide a clear witness.

But there is also a lot of Christian liberty in how we express ourselves in prayer, also seen in Romans 14, which you could direct these people to.

For my part, I have never seen anyone acting in a manner that made me think they were worshipping statues in Catholic churches. And I had never heard anyone discuss the subject before I started looking at CAF, and I don’t ever recall any mention of it at a Protestant church by anyone.

Howver, if you are actually worshipping statues and they are pointing it out, you might consider changing your behavior. Just a thought. I certainly hope that is not the case.

Pink lawn flamingoes, however, seem to demand attention, worship even.

 

[petite_foireuse]

@Truthstalker: It’s really nice to find a balanced point of view by a Protestant Like I said earlier, even though I am Catholic, I admit there is a risk with pictures and statues, but I think as Christians, it’s everyone’s job to act responsibly as “adults” in the Faith: Statues & images are ok if their role/place is well-understood, but veneration of Our Lady and the Saints should never take the place of the worship we owe God - they are only a form of “help” along the way, never the final goal.

You might also look at why the Orthodox use icons but not statues, and why the West seems to reverse this.

Now that’s an interesting aspect I had never thought of. Any pointers?

 

[Truthstalker]

@Truthstalker: It’s really nice to find a balanced point of view by a Protestant Like I said earlier, even though I am Catholic, I admit there is a risk with pictures and statues, but I think as Christians, it’s everyone’s job to act responsibly as “adults” in the Faith: Statues & images are ok if their role/place is well-understood, but veneration of Our Lady and the Saints should never take the place of the worship we owe God - they are only a form of “help” along the way, never the final goal.

Now that’s an interesting aspect I had never thought of. Any pointers?

Sort of an answer:
Iconoclasm has a long and complex history in Christianity that predates the Reformation by a long, long time. You might even dig into why some of the Reformers went into statue-smashing in a big way, but there had been a lot of that centuries earlier, and iconoclasm had quite a history. You could bore the challenger to death by citing some of that history, particularly Church Council proceedings at which it was discussed. I think one of the councils at Ephesus had significant discussion.

You could also stun some Protestants by asking them why they would never put a statue of the Virgin Mary in their church as a decoration. This would stun them long enough that you could escape.

 

[VoiceOfBible]

Indeed.

And through that comment we have disposed of the objection you had to Catholicism regarding praying before statues, yes?

Started to dispose.

Can anyone tell the reason for the presence of statues in a Catholic church in one statement?
I like to know from you.
If its already there in this forum please quote that for me.

 

[PRmerger]

Started to dispose.

Can anyone tell the reason for the presence of statues in a Catholic church in one statement?
I like to know from you.
If its already there in this forum please quote that for me.

They serve the same purpose as pictures of our family members do in our homes.

 

[VoiceOfBible]

For my part, I have never seen anyone acting in a manner that made me think they were worshipping statues in Catholic churches.

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

 

[PRmerger]

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

Then why don’t you think that those folks who are kneeling in front of a kleenex box are worshipping the kleenex box?

Also, do you think this person is worshipping the other person?

 

[PRmerger]

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

And do you think this person is worshipping his bible?

 

[leondaus]

The phrase “graven image” comes from the King James Version and is first found in Exodus 20:4 in the first of the Ten Commandments. The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally an idol. A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole. It is differentiated from a molten image which is melted metal poured into a cast. Abstract Asherah poles, carved wooden Ba’als covered in gold leaf, and etchings of gods accompanying Egyptian hieroglyphics are all graven images.

The progression of idolatry in a pagan religion generally starts with the acknowledgement of a power that controls natural forces. The presence of the force is then thought to indwell an object, like a stone, or a place, like a mountain. The next step is altering a naturally-occurring object, like a standing stone, a deliberately planted tree, or a carved Asherah pole, and asking the force to indwell it. When the idolatrous culture has had time to contemplate the personality of the god, they then make corresponding physical images—a statue that looks like a woman or a relief carving that looks like an animal. Graven images can be either of the last two steps.

The spiritual progression is similar. People start with wanting something (Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 3:5), often children or prosperity or good crops. They observe the circumstances (circumstances some acknowledge are God-ordained, and others think are independent) that lead to these things and begin to ascribe the causal forces using human characteristics—thus creating gods. Places are set aside to commune with these false gods. For convenience sake, smaller items, thought to hold the power or the communication line of the gods, are brought into homes. Before long, the people are ensnared by the compulsion to give homage to a thing of their own definition instead of the God of the universe.

The second commandment, recorded in Exodus 20:4-5, reads, “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them…” Likely, this refers back to the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before Me,” and specifically forbids the creation of idols. But it is equally dangerous to create an image of God Himself. God has given us reminders enough of His power and glory (Romans 1:20) without man attempting to use created things to represent the Creator.

Functionally, there is no difference between a “graven” image (Deuteronomy 4:16) and a “molten” image (Exodus 34:17). Both are man’s attempt to define and confine the power of God who works over creation. Both are the result of greed and covetousness, along with the fear that God does not have the worshipers’ best interests at heart. Graven images, whether an idol, a crystal, or a charm, are attempts to limit the power of God and reduce it to a small package which we can control. As with any kind of worship, the object of adoration inevitably controls us.

 

[leondaus]

Hi. If you consider what the Bible says by going in context and history (not cursory), what God forbids is the worship of the images in place of Him (as if the image itself is “god” and needs to be worshipped) and carved images of false gods like Baal and the golden calf . Both falls under the sin of idolatry.This is because during the time of Exodus and Deuteronomy (even the time of Jesus), many Jews who were following the neighboring countries worship pagan gods carved in the form of man, woman, animals, etc. And yeah, God Himself instructed Moses to carve images: Ex25:17-22 “Make two cherubims (angels)…shall have their wings spread out above…with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.” Nm21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a seraph (bronze serpent) and mount it on a pole.” Hope that helps.

The Bible is absolutely clear that we are to worship God alone. The only instances of anyone other than God receiving worship in the Bible are false gods, which are Satan and his demons. All followers of the Lord God refuse worship. Peter and the apostles refused to be worshipped (Acts 10:25-26; 14:13-14). The holy angels refuse to be worshipped (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). The response is always the same, “Worship God!”

Roman Catholics attempt to “bypass” these clear Scriptural principles by claiming they do not “worship” Mary or saints, but rather that they only “venerate” Mary and the saints. Using a different word does not change the essence of what is being done. A definition of “venerate” is “to regard with respect or reverence.” Nowhere in the Bible are we told to revere anyone but God alone. There is nothing wrong with respecting those faithful Christians who have gone before us (see Hebrews chapter 11). There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. The Bible describes Mary as “highly favored” by God (Luke 1:28). At the same time, there is no instruction in the Bible to revere those whom have gone to Heaven. We are to follow their example, yes, but worship, revere, or venerate, no!

When forced to admit that they do, in fact, worship Mary, Catholics will claim that they worship God through her, by praising the wonderful creation that God has made. Mary, in their minds, is the most beautiful and wonderful creation of God, and by praising her, they are praising her Creator. For Catholics, this is analogous to directing praise to an artist by praising his sculpture or painting. The problem with this is that God explicitly commands against worshipping Him through created things. We are not to bow down and worship anything in the form of heaven above or earth below (Exodus 20:4-5). Romans 1:25 could not be more clear, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.” Yes, God has created wonderful and amazing things. Yes, Mary was a godly woman who is worthy of our respect. No, we absolutely are not to worship God “vicariously” by praising things (or people) He has created. Doing so is blatant idolatry.

The major way Catholics “venerate” Mary and the saints is by praying to them. As the following article demonstrates, prayer to anyone other than God alone is anti-Biblical – praying to saints and Mary. Whether Mary and/or the saints are prayed to, or whether they are petitioned for their prayers – neither practice is Biblical. Prayer is an act of worship. When we pray to God, we are admitting that we need His help. Directing our prayers to anyone other than God is robbing God of the glory that is His alone.

Another way Catholics “venerate” Mary and the saints is by creating statues and images of them. Many Catholics use images of Mary and/or the saints as “good luck charms.” Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal this practice as blatant idolatry (Exodus 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 1 John 5:21). Rubbing rosary beads is idolatry. Lighting candles before a statue or portrayal of a saint is idolatry. Burying a Joseph statue in hopes of selling your home (and countless other Catholic practices) is idolatry.

The terminology is not the issue. Whether the practice is described as “worship” or “veneration,” or any other term, the problem is the same. Any time we ascribe something that belongs to God, to someone else, it is idolatry. The Bible nowhere instructs us to revere, pray to, rely on, or “idolize” anyone other than God. We are to worship God alone. Glory, praise, and honor belong to God alone. Only God is worthy to “…receive glory and honor and power…” (Revelation 4:11). God alone is worthy to receive our worship, adoration, and praise (Nehemiah 9:6; Revelation 15:4).

 

[Cat_Herder]

Roman Catholics attempt to “bypass” these clear Scriptural principles by claiming they do not “worship” Mary or saints, but rather that they only “venerate” Mary and the saints. Using a different word does not change the essence of what is being done. A definition of “venerate” is “to regard with respect or reverence.” Nowhere in the Bible are we told to revere anyone but God alone.

Wrong.

Jos. 5.14 (NRSV)
He replied, ‘Neither; but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped, and he said to him, ‘What do you command your servant, my lord?’
Dan. 8:16-17 (NRSV)
and I heard a human voice by the Ulai, calling, ‘Gabriel, help this man understand the vision.’ So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I became frightened and fell prostrate. But he said to me, ‘Understand, O*mortal, that the vision is for the time of the end.’
So there you have two great OT prophets venerating angels. (Edited)

 

[PRmerger]

Any time we ascribe something that belongs to God, to someone else, it is idolatry. The Bible nowhere instructs us to revere, pray to, rely on, or “idolize” anyone other than God. We are to worship God alone. Glory, praise, and honor belong to God alone. Only God is worthy to “…receive glory and honor and power…” (Revelation 4:11). God alone is worthy to receive our worship, adoration, and praise (Nehemiah 9:6; Revelation 15:4).

This is very Catholic of you to say, leondaus!

 

[Truthstalker]

One of the things I like about the Mass is the incredible, intense focus on God and away from everyone else, including the choir, human personalities - anything and anyone that would distract us from God. I think part of the critique Protestants make is that it is like someone is taking family pictures out to look over in a sanctuary that is reserved for one focused purpose. If all you do is veneration, you never get to real worship. Someone COULD spend all their time focused on saints, praying to saints, noting their days, etc., and sort of push God out of their thinking, focus and lives. We only have so much room, after all, and God demands our all.

I get uncomfortable sometimes when someone is recognized for an achievement during the service, or gets a round of applause, etc., or when it seems the worship team is getting attention that should go to God. The time is His and He is a jealous God.

Not that there is not a time and a place for family pictures. But it’s not during a worship service. And I think we all agree that giving a statue reverence that is due to God alone is wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

Someone COULD spend all their time focused on saints, praying to saints, noting their days, etc., and sort of push God out of their thinking, focus and lives. We only have so much room, after all, and God demands our all.

Only if they have divorced themselves from the teachings of the Church.

Not that there is not a time and a place for family pictures. But it’s not during a worship service.

Have you ever been present at the Divine Liturgy that had the congregation kneel before a statue of a saint?

 

[Truthstalker]

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

I guess I am in trouble. I have kissed my dog. I am not dyslexic; I do not think I am then kissing my God. It’s affection. People kiss pictures of loved ones.

I garland the Christmas tree. I don’t worship the thing. Usually people hate what I did to the tree and ask me to stop, anyway.

I don’t know about the “lighting candles to it” - I’ve seen candles lit, but I don’t think the people think the statue has some innate spiritual force that runs on candle-power. I haven’t looked into the candle business, but that does not mean that I condemn what I do not understand.

Showing incense to it? Not sure what this means. Incensing the statue? I THINK that is a form of respect - not to the statue in and of itself but the statue as a symbol.

Soldiers salute the flag. They guard it. They honor it. They do not think it is God.

 

[JonNC]

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

To be honest, if you were a “cradle” protestant, my advice would have been to simply ask Catholics what they’re doing, rather than allow your perception of appearance “make you think” in this way. Since you are a former Catholic, my frank reaction is ISTM you would know differently. Alas, Lutherans also have a share of poor catechesis among our members.

Jon

 

[Truthstalker]

On the other hand…

A friend of mine is a missionary in a rural central American village, nominally Catholic. She tells me that on Good Friday there is a huge procession in which they carry Aztec or Mayan-looking statues down the street while people dance and wail. The spiritual darkness is palpable and it is the creepiest thing she has ever seen. It seems that when the Spanish came, the people were told they could not worship the jaguar god and carry his image down the street. So they simply renamed it Jesus and renamed their other idols with Christian names, moved the date of their festival, and everything was fine with the authorities. After the parade in the village they take the idols into the hills and do things with them the old way. My friend has been told she is not welcome there, and neither is the priest. On Easter morning there is not even a service.

I do not think that if you came into your church on Sunday morning and found what appeared to be such an idol that you would tolerate it. You might take a mallet to it yourself, without asking permission.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

Let me relieve your mind of its erroneous impression.

We Catholics do not worship statues. We do not think a statue is a god. We do not treat it as a god. When you light a candle on your birthday cake, are you worshipping the cake???

 

[Cat_Herder]

On the other hand…

A friend of mine is a missionary in a rural central American village, nominally Catholic. She tells me that on Good Friday there is a huge procession in which they carry Aztec or Mayan-looking statues down the street while people dance and wail. The spiritual darkness is palpable and it is the creepiest thing she has ever seen.

Abortion is creepier, darker, even more idolatrous and a lot closer to home.

 

[Truthstalker]

Kissing the statue, garlanding it, lighting candle to it, showing incense to it makes me think like catholics are worshiping statues.

I would appreciate it if you would base your position on something more substantial than your personal opinion. Right now it seems to be personal opinion versus personal opinion.