What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Peter_J]

Peter J:

I am a non-Catholic Christian. By default, I fall into the Protestant sector.

I have never said to myself or any one else: “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.” Where did you get this idea?

Please do not lump all Protestants together.

Hi Anna. Sorry if I offended you. I certainly didn’t mean that every single Catholic and every single Protestant say to themselves, “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.” (I’m Catholic myself, BTW.)

If I can accomplish one thing on this Thread, it would be to stress the fact that Protestantism, in and of itself, is not a religion.

I agree 100%. I believe that Christianity is one religion. (See my profile.)

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Hi Anna,
I think their have been points of confusion over faith & works. It should not be a point of polarization between Catholics & Protestants as long as we understand the Scriptural context that the work of God truly is in terms of faith. I’m pretty sure you have the same understanding Anna, so tell me if I mis-speak, but I truly believe that the works that James speaks of is not our works but the works of the **Holy Spirit **through us.
WORKS
The Spirit of the Lord works through us only when we are in one accord with His will.

Isa 26:12 O Lord , you will ordain peace for us; you have done for us all our works.

Without Him what work could we do that is not hay and stubble for the fire?

John 15:5 "I am the vine, you [are] the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Not by our own deeds are we crowned but by the deeds of God that He works through us. Not by any deeds are we made worthy but by the deeds Christ works through us on mission with Him

Rev 4:10-11 And the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

As Moses said it is His work that we do by faith

Num 16:28 And Moses said, "Hereby you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Exd 4:12 “Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.”
Exd 4:15 "You shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth and will teach you both what to do.

So God prepares those who believe for good works that we may be on mission with Christ to our own generation

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

I believe our works are not about us at all they are all about Him!

Phl 2:10-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

True submission to God allows the power of God to work through each of us.

Col 1:29 For this I toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works within me.

This we can rest assured of:

Hbr 4:4,10 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” … for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from His.
Hbr 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Faith in Christ will produce works when we submit to the Spirit of God in obedience. Whose works do we keep? It is not by our striving but by our submission to the Holy Spirit. Who is “My” in “My works”

Rev 2:26 "'The one who conquers and who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Who then is our light that shines withing but the very true Light that has come into the world. That isn’t me or you– that’s Jesus!

Mat 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:21-22 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

May God’s will be done in each of us by His Holy Spirit,
Gloria in altissimis Deo, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Bob,

When the Schism occurred, Peter was with the West.

No, Peter was in heaven looking at the mess two Cardinals***** made of Christian unity. These two “ministers without portfolio” caused the schism in 1054AD, removing their church from the communion.

But we cannot return to a church like it was in 1053AD, God spare us from that! Because we were on the cusp of schism, and we would be right back at it once again. We need to return to the First Millennium church.

***** It may also be of interest to you to know that there was no bishop in the Apostolic See of Rome at the time Cardinals Frederic and Humbert ran amuck in Constantinople and started the schism, in the west no one was in charge!

The East claims that no council has been valid since the Schism and therefore the Church has been hamstrung ever since while the West has acted like the Church acted before the Schism.

What you are referring to are local Councils of the west. These are not like the Seven Councils for several important reasons:

First of all, the western church claims only a Pope can call a Council. In reality the Popes never called any of the original Councils and did not chair them.

Secondly, the Pope claims a “line item” veto power over the findings of Councils, and can declare entire sessions invalid. In the Seven Councils everyone got just one vote, that includes the legates of the see of Rome.

Thirdly, western local Councils have too often been used as platforms to introduce new theology. That was not the focus of intent of the Seven Councils.

Please remember that the Seven Ecumenical Councils were called primarily to meet the challenge of new heresies, and the work of these councils was not of building new dogmas, but paring back and trimming out heretical ideas. The whole focus was different, the Seven Councils were conservative affairs, dominated by apophatic reasoning. The intent was to preserve the faith once received, to keep it inviolate.

The local western Councils of the second millennium have been primarily cataphatic affairs, introducing new concepts with eagerness. The western church in more recent centuries has an entirely different way of looking at theology than the early Fathers, convinced that some how they can learn more things about God than was left to us through the Apostles.

Sometimes westerners look with hopefulness to the declaration of new dogmas. The early church defined doctrine only with extreme reluctance, used negative reasoning and put most of it’s energy into restraining the innovators.

Even today, there are Roman Catholic factions lobbying for new dogmas, and they cannot see a problem with it!

The East doesn’t seem to be as concerned as the West about Unity.

Of course it is!

The question of Unity is vital!!!

I agree.

"That they may be one as We are One so the WORLD WILL KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SENT ME!!! The World doesn’t know that Christ is sent by the Father because we are no longer ONE!! God help us, PLEASE!! bob mck

I appreciate your sentiments and earnest plea, I really do!

What does unity mean to you?

To different people it means different things. One cannot have a RE-union until one knows what the union was originally like. The answer to that may surprise you.

There are different models to the concept of “church”. The model that has evolved is the one from the west. The early church was structured differently than the modern Roman Catholic church. It was based upon intercommunion between local autocephalic churches which shared a common theology. That is still the model followed by the Orthodox today.

All that is necessary for reconciliation between us is for the Papacy to return to the original model.

To quote (once again) Cardinal Ratzinger:
Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.
[Joseph Ratzinger, *Principles of Catholic Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press]

I see the Pope really understands this but it will take a lot, perhaps even intervention of the Holy Ghost, for the rank and file Roman Catholics to come to understand this as well.

Pax et Bonum,

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Bob,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In the Creed we say, “We believe in the Holy Spirit Who has spoken through the Prophets, etc.” Could it be that the Pope and the Bishops are those Prophets through whom the Holy Spirit speaks? Could it be that the Church(RC) is the “Mouth of God”? I’m on your side!! bob mck

I hope you are not suggesting that the Pope and bishops are oracles of God.

The Age of Revelation is closed! Your own church teaches that it ended with the death of the last Apostle.

The Montanists were condemned by the church (yours and mine together at the time) for claiming the Holy Spirit was speaking to them. This is the reason that, even today, your church will not bind anyone to the Marian apparitions, it is far too dangerous a concept to introduce into the church (although I see that in the case of Marian apparitions people have been trying to wriggle around that prohibition for the last three hundred years).
*
Michael*

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Hello Bob,

Glory to Jesus Christ! I hope you are not suggesting that the Pope and bishops are oracles of God.

The Age of Revelation is closed! Your own church teaches that it ended with the death of the last Apostle.

The Montanists were condemned by the church (yours and mine together at the time) for claiming the Holy Spirit was speaking to them. This is the reason that, even today, your church will not bind anyone to the Marian apparitions, it is far too dangerous a concept to introduce into the church (although I see that in the case of Marian apparitions people have been trying to wriggle around that prohibition for the last three hundred years).
*
Michael*

The faith as given by Christ is complete but the understanding of it continues to grow with the passage of time. The Holy Spirit guides the Church through the office of St. Peter and his successors. Prophesy is a gift of the Holy Spirit who guides the Pope so he can not teach error in matters of faith and morals when speaking ex cathedra for all the Church. The Marian apparitions are not binding but recognized as worthy of belief. I for one would not be opposed to her being recognized as Co-redemptrix. bob
bob

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna. Sorry if I offended you. I certainly didn’t mean that every single Catholic and every single Protestant say to themselves, “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.” (I’m Catholic myself, BTW.)

I agree 100%. I believe that Christianity is one religion. (See my profile.)

Peter J:

You did not offend me in any way. I am just expressing my views in this very lively discussion. I welcome all your comments.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna,
I think their have been points of confusion over faith & works. It should not be a point of polarization between Catholics & Protestants as long as we understand the Scriptural context that the work of God truly is in terms of faith. I’m pretty sure you have the same understanding Anna, so tell me if I mis-speak, but I truly believe that the works that James speaks of is not our works but the works of the **Holy Spirit **through us.
WORKS
The Spirit of the Lord works through us only when we are in one accord with His will.
Without Him what work could we do that is not hay and stubble for the fire?

Not by our own deeds are we crowned but by the deeds of God that He works through us. Not by any deeds are we made worthy but by the deeds Christ works through us on mission with Him

As Moses said it is His work that we do by faith

So God prepares those who believe for good works that we may be on mission with Christ to our own generation

I believe our works are not about us at all they are all about Him!

True submission to God allows the power of God to work through each of us.

This we can rest assured of:

Faith in Christ will produce works when we submit to the Spirit of God in obedience. Whose works do we keep? It is not by our striving but by our submission to the Holy Spirit. Who is “My” in “My works”
Who then is our light that shines withing but the very true Light that has come into the world. That isn’t me or you– that’s Jesus!

May God’s will be done in each of us by His Holy Spirit,
Gloria in altissimis Deo, Erchomai Kyrios

Erchomai Kyrios:

Great Scriptures. I agree with you on every point. It is by faith that we are saved and any good that comes from us is indeed from God.

I wanted to emphasize “faith without works is dead.” I have found that sometimes people misunderstand this issue.

I have had non-Christians say to me, Christians think once they are “saved” that can do anything they want and just show up at church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness.

I have become acutely aware of the fact that if people cannot see Christ at work in us, we would do well to keep our mouths closed.

Thank you for clarifying this important issue.

Anna

 

[jpaul1953]

Jpaul1953:

Do you believe there has ever been a point in history when the doctrines/dogmas of the RCC were in error?

Or do you believe every word of Catholic doctrines/dogmas have traveled through history with total infallibility?

Anna

Hey Anna,

Please understand that Matt 16:13-20 states about one church, and the right for Jesus’ appointed chief on earth, Simon Peter (peter is the english for petras which is the Greek for Keifaswich is the Aramaic-Christ’s language on earth- for great rock) the keys to the kingdom of Heaven (knowledge on how to get to Heaven). The gates of Hell with never prevail against my Church states Jesus, who also tells Simon Peter that whatever Simon Peter holds bound on earth will be held bound in Heaven and whatever Simon Peter holds loosed on earth will be held loosed in Heaven ( which simply means whatever Simon Peter says with regards to Jesus’ Church is accepted by Jesus and the rest of heaven, along with the guarantee that Jesus’ Church will survive no matter what Hell tries to do (eg. sicko priests, power-hungry bishops, etc.).

Now I ask you if Jesus says it, why do some many people doubt it. Man does not make the earthly word infallible. Jesus does. Jesus will not allow His Church to lie to His people.

The Church has made many many mistakes, but when it comes to dogma, the Church can’t make a mistake because Jesus won’t allow it. Please try to understand this.

Respectfully,

jpaul1953

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Erchomai Kyrios:

Great Scriptures. I agree with you on every point. It is by faith that we are saved and any good that comes from us is indeed from God.

I wanted to emphasize “faith without works is dead.” I have found that sometimes people misunderstand this issue.

I have had non-Christians say to me, Christians think once they are “saved” that can do anything they want and just show up at church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness.

I have become acutely aware of the fact that if people cannot see Christ at work in us, we would do well to keep our mouths closed.

Thank you for clarifying this important issue.

Anna

Hi Anna,
I would certainly agree with you and James on that point, “faith without works is dead.” Because if we are not displaying the works of God in our lives we must question, 'Is God truly working in us?" Sometimes I think there are things in our lives, such as unconfessed sin, blocking our relationship with God and the work of the Holy Spirit within us. Sometimes, however, we just desire that more fruit would be springing from our lives. In this case “We should not despise the day of small things”.

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel [with] those seven; they [are] the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

There is a Catholic teen on this forum who signs all her posts, “I’m just a little girl doing little acts of love, but my Father thinks I’m big! Jesus I trust in You!”. Hearing that just makes me want to praise God, for to me this is the real essence of whom each of us are in Christ. We are certainly people from all walks of life, in all different situations, and capacities but we all have something to learn from the youngest to the oldest, from educated and uneducated, and from every circumstance we find ourselves, if we truly walk with the Lord. We also learn from the enemies of Christ as well and we have nothing to fear from them. After all we already know by faith that God is the Truth and that there is really nothing that can change the Truth of what God has spoken. But as you said, we really can do nothing unless we are a branch in the True Vine of Christ. We need to be about the unfinished work of the Lord - which in eternity is already completed - but with respect to the domain of our temporality, bounded by time, will only be completed when Christ returns for His Church - “capital C”. I think when we reflect on the work that God calls us to and the evidences that He is working in our life to do this work through us that we constantly need to examine ourselves if we are walking in His truth.

2Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves [as to] whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you are disqualified.

Our walk is a daily walk and it is always a walk towards the cross of Christ.

1Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Most of all I have found God’s work to be one of pure love. We need to pass that on to other, first and foremost through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Bring as many as we can to Him and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I do not know where God will place a person, nor am I qualified to say where He will grow you. I can only say in all things trust Him with all your heart, mind & strength for He loves us, wants all to come to repentance, as has gone to prepare a place for all who will come.

1Cr 2:9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
1Cr 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
2Cr 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have so abundantly for you.
Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not [use] liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another

May God Bless You and all who love Him,
Erchomai Kyrios.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hey Anna,

Please understand that Matt 16:13-20 states about one church, and the right for Jesus’ appointed chief on earth, Simon Peter (peter is the english for petras which is the Greek for Keifaswich is the Aramaic-Christ’s language on earth- for great rock) the keys to the kingdom of Heaven (knowledge on how to get to Heaven). The gates of Hell with never prevail against my Church states Jesus, who also tells Simon Peter that whatever Simon Peter holds bound on earth will be held bound in Heaven and whatever Simon Peter holds loosed on earth will be held loosed in Heaven ( which simply means whatever Simon Peter says with regards to Jesus’ Church is accepted by Jesus and the rest of heaven, along with the guarantee that Jesus’ Church will survive no matter what Hell tries to do (eg. sicko priests, power-hungry bishops, etc.).

Now I ask you if Jesus says it, why do some many people doubt it. Man does not make the earthly word infallible. Jesus does. Jesus will not allow His Church to lie to His people.

The Church has made many many mistakes, but when it comes to dogma, the Church can’t make a mistake because Jesus won’t allow it. Please try to understand this.

Respectfully,

jpaul1953

Jpaul:

Before I answer your questions; I do have a question regarding Matthew 15:19: Do you believe that only the Pope has been given the authority to “bind” or “loose”?

Matthew 16:19 (ESV) 19 I will give you(A) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and(B) whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[a] in heaven."

Footnotes: 1. Matthew 16:19 Or shall have been bound . . . shall have been loosed

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads!

Anna

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads!

Anna

Thank you, Anna!! bobmck

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads!

Anna

**Thank you so much Anna! **

I had a really great father’s day with my wife Paula, my son Patrick, daughter Kerrie Lynn and her husband Tony and especially with my 1 year old grandson Kelton Patrick. All the girls, though all over the map this year, sent me very beautiful & heartwarming cards and each one called me so I have been greatly blessed as a father and I am so thankful!
I just want to remind everyone, if they have not done so already, to give our Father who art in Heaven, from whom resides all the wisdom of fatherhood, all our thanks on Father’s Day. May we all bless His Name who is the One who was, is & will be forever blessed and who blesses each of us!

May the Lord be with You,
Erchomai Kyrios

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna,
I would certainly agree with you and James on that point, “faith without works is dead.” Because if we are not displaying the works of God in our lives we must question, 'Is God truly working in us?" Sometimes I think there are things in our lives, such as unconfessed sin, blocking our relationship with God and the work of the Holy Spirit within us. Sometimes, however, we just desire that more fruit would be springing from our lives. In this case “We should not despise the day of small things”.
There is a Catholic teen on this forum who signs all her posts, “I’m just a little girl doing little acts of love, but my Father thinks I’m big! Jesus I trust in You!”. Hearing that just makes me want to praise God, for to me this is the real essence of whom each of us are in Christ. We are certainly people from all walks of life, in all different situations, and capacities but we all have something to learn from the youngest to the oldest, from educated and uneducated, and from every circumstance we find ourselves, if we truly walk with the Lord. We also learn from the enemies of Christ as well and we have nothing to fear from them. After all we already know by faith that God is the Truth and that there is really nothing that can change the Truth of what God has spoken. But as you said, we really can do nothing unless we are a branch in the True Vine of Christ. We need to be about the unfinished work of the Lord - which in eternity is already completed - but with respect to the domain of our temporality, bounded by time, will only be completed when Christ returns for His Church - “capital C”. I think when we reflect on the work that God calls us to and the evidences that He is working in our life to do this work through us that we constantly need to examine ourselves if we are walking in His truth.

Our walk is a daily walk and it is always a walk towards the cross of Christ.

Most of all I have found God’s work to be one of pure love. We need to pass that on to other, first and foremost through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Bring as many as we can to Him and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I do not know where God will place a person, nor am I qualified to say where He will grow you. I can only say in all things trust Him with all your heart, mind & strength for He loves us, wants all to come to repentance, as has gone to prepare a place for all who will come.

May God Bless You and all who love Him,
Erchomai Kyrios.

Erchomai Kyrios:

I read this post again this morning. It is my devotional for today. Your words are true and uplifting.

My God continue to bless you,
Anna

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi Anna,
I would certainly agree with you and James on that point, “faith without works is dead.” Because if we are not displaying the works of God in our lives we must question, 'Is God truly working in us?" Sometimes I think there are things in our lives, such as unconfessed sin, blocking our relationship with God and the work of the Holy Spirit within us. Sometimes, however, we just desire that more fruit would be springing from our lives. In this case “We should not despise the day of small things”.
There is a Catholic teen on this forum who signs all her posts, “I’m just a little girl doing little acts of love, but my Father thinks I’m big! Jesus I trust in You!”. Hearing that just makes me want to praise God, for to me this is the real essence of whom each of us are in Christ. We are certainly people from all walks of life, in all different situations, and capacities but we all have something to learn from the youngest to the oldest, from educated and uneducated, and from every circumstance we find ourselves, if we truly walk with the Lord. We also learn from the enemies of Christ as well and we have nothing to fear from them. After all we already know by faith that God is the Truth and that there is really nothing that can change the Truth of what God has spoken. But as you said, we really can do nothing unless we are a branch in the True Vine of Christ. We need to be about the unfinished work of the Lord - which in eternity is already completed - but with respect to the domain of our temporality, bounded by time, will only be completed when Christ returns for His Church - “capital C”. I think when we reflect on the work that God calls us to and the evidences that He is working in our life to do this work through us that we constantly need to examine ourselves if we are walking in His truth.

Our walk is a daily walk and it is always a walk towards the cross of Christ.

Most of all I have found God’s work to be one of pure love. We need to pass that on to other, first and foremost through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Bring as many as we can to Him and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I do not know where God will place a person, nor am I qualified to say where He will grow you. I can only say in all things trust Him with all your heart, mind & strength for He loves us, wants all to come to repentance, as has gone to prepare a place for all who will come.

May God Bless You and all who love Him,
Erchomai Kyrios.

hello erchomai.

let me ask you this: do you worry about the different enterpretations of Sacred Scriptures by different people? do you consider to be the Truth that One Spirit gaves different enterpretations of the Word to different peoples? or do you think it should be only one understanding of the Word?

Peace.

 

[Anna_Scott]

jpaul1953;5349212]Hey Anna, Please understand that Matt 16:13-20 states about one church, and the right for Jesus’ appointed chief on earth, Simon Peter (peter is the english for petras which is the Greek for Keifaswich is the Aramaic-Christ’s language on earth- for great rock) the keys to the kingdom of Heaven (knowledge on how to get to Heaven).

I am very familiar with Matthew, Chapter 16 (ESV):
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Where does the Scripture say that Peter and his successors will be infallible?

Jesus does say to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

If you read on to Verse 23, you will find Jesus rebuking Peter, saying, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” So, Peter was still fallible at this point. Granted, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost had not yet occurred

quote by jpaul: The gates of Hell with never prevail against my Church states Jesus, who also tells Simon Peter that whatever Simon Peter holds bound on earth will be held bound in Heaven and whatever Simon Peter holds loosed on earth will be held loosed in Heaven ( which simply means whatever Simon Peter says with regards to Jesus’ Church is accepted by Jesus and the rest of heaven, along with the guarantee that Jesus’ Church will survive no matter what Hell tries to do (eg. sicko priests, power-hungry bishops, etc.).

I agree that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church of Christ. I agree that the true words of Jesus are infallible.

However, I have questions:
Do you believe that every Pope is infallible?
Do you believe that only the Pope has the right to “bind and loose.” (This is a very important question for me, personally.)

quote by jpaul: Now I ask you if Jesus says it, why do some many people doubt it.

What are you referring to here? What is included in “it”? Please indulge me here in restating, what I am sure appears to you to be obvious. I really do want to understand what you are saying.

quote by jpaul:Man does not make the earthly word infallible. Jesus does. Jesus will not allow His Church to lie to His people.

Does this mean the Catholic Church is infallible–incapable of speaking, at any point in history, that which is not truth?

In 2000, POPE JOHN PAUL II gave, what appears to be, an unprecedented apology to the Jewish people. If I have this quote right, Pope John Paul II said, " We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant."

It appears that Pope John Paul II is acknowledging fallibility of the Catholic Church.

quote by jpaul: The Church has made many many mistakes, but when it comes to dogma, the Church can’t make a mistake because Jesus won’t allow it. Please try to understand this.

You say, “the Church has made many mistakes.” You also say, “when it comes to dogma, the Church can’t make a mistake.” I do want to understand what you are saying. This sounds as if the “Catholic Church” and “Catholic Dogma” are not necessarily the same.

I look forward to you comments, jpaul; and I urge others to comment as well.

I think in the spirit of determining those things which prevent unity between non-Catholics and Catholics, we need to be able to ask serious questions.

I believe we can ask and answer respectfully.

May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

The

 

[jmcrae]

I am very familiar with Matthew, Chapter 16 (ESV):
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Where does the Scripture say that Peter and his successors will be infallible?

When it says that the Gates of Hell (that is to say, any statement that is not true, since a statement that is not true is the first step, or “gate” to Hell) will not prevail - it means that whatever the Church formally teaches can never be a false teaching. This is what is meant by “infallible.”

Jesus does say to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

This means that Peter (and his successors) has authority to set the discipline of the Church, and will not be contradicted in Heaven. (ie: rules regarding marriage, fasting, abstinence, penance, the discipline of the Sacraments, and so on.)

If you read on to Verse 23, you will find Jesus rebuking Peter, saying, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” So, Peter was still fallible at this point. Granted, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost had not yet occurred

No, rather, Peter was inserting his personal opinion, at that point. This shows us that we are not required to listen to the personal opinions of the Popes, but only their formal teachings.

However, I have questions:
Do you believe that every Pope is infallible?

Yes, when he is teaching the formal teachings of the Church.

Do you believe that only the Pope has the right to “bind and loose.” (This is a very important question for me, personally.)

He typically does this together with his Bishops, who are in full communion with him. Each Bishop also has authority over his own Diocese.

What are you referring to here? What is included in “it”? Please indulge me here in restating, what I am sure appears to you to be obvious. I really do want to understand what you are saying.

That the Apostles and their Successors have in fact and in reality received the Authority that He gave to them.

(BRB)

 

[DLClark]

We are not saved by works, Eph 2:8-9. Holy communion is a work man does hoping to make himself right with God, Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy
NASU

Isa 64:6-7
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name,
Who arouses himself to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us
And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
NASU

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Erchomai Kyrios:

I read this post again this morning. It is my devotional for today. Your words are true and uplifting.

My God continue to bless you,
Anna

We can do nothing without God? There needs to be an adjective after nothing and that is “Good”. We can do evil without God, if I’m not mistaken. love to all! bobmck