What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Peter_J]

We know this for a fact, because in the time of the Arian Heresy, all Catholics except two - St. Athanasius, and the Pope of that time - believed in the Arian heresy. And yet, it never, ever became Church teaching, and when the Pope was asked to proclaim it as a Dogma, he refused, and then after some time had passed, and after St. Athanasius had written a great many things about it, the other Bishops realized their error, and much was said and done, and ultimately the Arian Heresy was driven out of the Church. So, we know from past events that we can trust the Holy Spirit to protect the Church from error.

Strange that we don’t hear about that more often.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

hello erchomai.
let me ask you this: do you worry about the different enterpretations of Sacred Scriptures by different people? do you consider to be the Truth that One Spirit gaves different enterpretations of the Word to different peoples? or do you think it should be only one understanding of the Word?
Peace.

Hi Wisdomseeker,
I guess I would only be worried if I thought God was worried but since He stated beforehand to all of us that erroneous doctrine would occur and that the Church would be infiltrated I do not worry. I believe God is in control and there are no surprises.

Mat 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

So the Word of God will always do something in our hearts - it is sharper than any two edged sword discerning the intentions of the heart.Heb 4:12 His Word throws light on our darkness that we might repent and confess our sin, yearning for His goodness.

Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.

So we cry out to be taught of God just as the Psalmist

Psa 25:4 Show me Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths.
Psa 25:5 Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day.
Psa 25:12 Who [is] the man that fears the LORD? Him shall He teach in the way He chooses.
Psa 27:11 Teach me Your way, O LORD, And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
Psa 51:13 [Then] I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You.
Psa 86:11 Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psa 94:12 Blessed [is] the man whom You instruct, O LORD, And teach out of Your law,

There are so many of these verses that it is crystal clear the Lord seeks to teach us His Ways through His Holy Word.
As for understanding the Word of God. I certainly don’t propose anyone has all the answers, least of all would I ever propose that I have all the answers. But I can say I feed off the Word of God and I love the Words of Jesus more than my own life for He is my true Life. I accept no other substitues for there is only one Lion of Judah, that being the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world - who took my sin and shame upon Himself, just as He did yours. He did this just as His Father asked Him to and He also did it for love’s sake that through Him we would be all in all “His”. I also believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever Hbr 13:8 and that He gives all who would worship Him in spirit and truth, whether they be a child of God at 5 or 105 understanding.

So I think all who love His Word actually love Him

John 8:42-43 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

In the Old Covenant it was true that the Word of God was entrusted to few. Jesus actually addressed those to whom it was entrusted.

Luk 11:52-54 “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.
However, do I find the twisting of Scripture appalling? Yes, I do but the Word of God can speak for itself and I believe expose any lie. As far as errors are concerned they are manifold but if we are truly seeking the Lord will He not show us His truth? Would He give His children a snake if we ask for a fish? I think not. I think all of us should seek to study His Word, talk about it openly, certainly seek out others who have learned it such as the early church fathers, but especially seek God who provides wisdom to whomever asks of Him to understand and obey.

Gotta go but may God bless you
Erchomai Kyrios

 

[superdave69]

First of all their should be no obstacle, as the real problem is we all need to be open to the word of God,( JESUS CHRIST) one and the same, the Holy Spirit. Christians including Catholic’s want to pick and choose what fits in their life and ignore what the True Church teaches, The bible and tradition of our Church forefathers with the guidance of Our Pope, Bishops, Priest, protects the truth. The biggest problem seems to be we want finite answers and as humans do not want to listen to God with the real mystery of his spirtual being. As humans we will never be capable of understanding God. That why we have Faith, and Christ died for us, so that we would love him more than ourself’s follow his church he established and love our neighbors so we can enter the kingdom of heaven. To sum it up is Non-Catholic Christians have the same problem we do , we go brain dead if it does not agree with what we want in this life, and think the path to the least resistance seems eaiser. The main answer in this world is still THERE AIN’T NO FREE LUNCH PROGRAM PERIOD.

GOD BLESS

 

[lutheran_guest]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

The nature of this question and thought process behind it is the issue. Catholicism is based upon too much detailed legalism that is in fact debatable and based upon interpretations and ?. Since details were the questions instead of the fundamental difference: fundamentals (protestant) vs substitution of fundamentals with complication (Catholic).

Why confuse people with all of the detailed apologetics when “childlike faith” is the necessary part?

Catholic doctrine greatly exceeds the 613 Hebrew laws of the O.T. The exhaustive apologetics seem in spirit contrary to Christ’s commandments to simplify (love God above all else, love thy neighbor as thyself, and on another occasion do this in rememberance of me).
The culture of Ritual has clouded the essential issues causing people to believe that repetitive prayers (which aren’t even the words/thoughts of the person praying), ritual and trusting that their own actions directed by the church will provide salvation.

a few of the cases where “God’s Unchanging Truth” has been revised or “reinterprated?”: usery; fish on friday; no water before mass/communion (maybe skip brushing teeth b4 mass to avoid that potential ride to hell); indulgences which have just been reinstated; Earth centered universe; The Assumption; no C-sections; basing natural law on an acceptable subset of observations; temporal barriers not a barrier in NFP (we should believe that 1% of contraceptive failures are God’s active will), Mass on Sunday counts and other days don’t count; An amazing progression of rules governing sexual behavior through history. Were any of these correct? If they were correct, why change? If they aren’t believed to have been correct, why is the current thinking correct? Maybe thinking in place of believing is the problem.

Conversely, Ignoring of those things given by God : “In the beginning … each after their own kind” somehow leads to “evolution not necessarily in disagreement with church teachings”. Regarding the Torah as “poetic” (sorry, God’s work through Moses trumps anything in the post Constantine Catholic history)…, Clear cut definitions for clergy listed in Timothy and yet we have the Church policy …, No graven images (a lot of people pray to those works of art). “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father” yet we constantly call the Proests “Father” … lots and lots of these, I’m sure we have all heard them from the occasional Protestant/Catholic discussions.

Instead of teaching complicated doctrine and dogma and reinforcement of performance based salvation, donate some time to homeless people as commanded, feed the poor as commanded, Tell them Christ died for their sins as commanded, believe as commanded that Christ died for your sins, Take Communiion as commanded, love your wife as commanded, pray for our leaders (and clergy) …

Mortal sin? venial sin? Purgatory? is there a point to these?

Is it that one instance of un-Reconciled sin ( except if you would have gone to confession before dying… and if you would have gone before dying that you would be perfectly contrite … unless the priest granted absolution even though you wouldn’t have been perfectly contrite…)? I have no idea how many reversing exceptions can be written into man trying to control or define God’s province of granting forgiveness and salvation. Christ decides who is saved which is “by faith through grace”. Our sinful nature is enough to invalidate our salvation unless Christ reedems us out of our sinful nature which is 100% an act of GRACE BY CHRIST. A sinful instance not covered in the confessional cannot come close to overcoming God’s grace (sorry to shoot down the premise of so many horror flicks).

To protestants, faith is simple with explanation,evidence and backup in God’s word and visible action in our lives. In Catholicism, religion is at best intricate with complicated and questionable substantiation that robs it’s followers of the understanding that could help evangelize the world. Much easier to say “Christ taught” than “Church teaching … based upon authority … natural law … Augustine … tradition …”

Exactly when does tradition begin anyway?. Traditionally, tradition begins by superseding the prior tradition when convenient for the governing authority.

God Bless all of you from my heart.

 

[SSTeacher]

The nature of this question and thought process behind it is the issue. Catholicism is based upon too much detailed legalism that is in fact debatable and based upon interpretations and ?. Since details were the questions instead of the fundamental difference: fundamentals (protestant) vs substitution of fundamentals with complication (Catholic).

Why confuse people with all of the detailed apologetics when “childlike faith” is the necessary part?

Catholic doctrine greatly exceeds the 613 Hebrew laws of the O.T. The exhaustive apologetics seem in spirit contrary to Christ’s commandments to simplify (love God above all else, love thy neighbor as thyself, and on another occasion do this in rememberance of me).
The culture of Ritual has clouded the essential issues causing people to believe that repetitive prayers (which aren’t even the words/thoughts of the person praying), ritual and trusting that their own actions directed by the church will provide salvation.

a few of the cases where “God’s Unchanging Truth” has been revised or “reinterprated?”: usery; fish on friday; no water before mass/communion (maybe skip brushing teeth b4 mass to avoid that potential ride to hell); indulgences which have just been reinstated; Earth centered universe; The Assumption; no C-sections; basing natural law on an acceptable subset of observations; temporal barriers not a barrier in NFP (we should believe that 1% of contraceptive failures are God’s active will), Mass on Sunday counts and other days don’t count; An amazing progression of rules governing sexual behavior through history. Were any of these correct? If they were correct, why change? If they aren’t believed to have been correct, why is the current thinking correct? Maybe thinking in place of believing is the problem.

Conversely, Ignoring of those things given by God : “In the beginning … each after their own kind” somehow leads to “evolution not necessarily in disagreement with church teachings”. Regarding the Torah as “poetic” (sorry, God’s work through Moses trumps anything in the post Constantine Catholic history)…, Clear cut definitions for clergy listed in Timothy and yet we have the Church policy …, No graven images (a lot of people pray to those works of art). “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father” yet we constantly call the Proests “Father” … lots and lots of these, I’m sure we have all heard them from the occasional Protestant/Catholic discussions.

Instead of teaching complicated doctrine and dogma and reinforcement of performance based salvation, donate some time to homeless people as commanded, feed the poor as commanded, Tell them Christ died for their sins as commanded, believe as commanded that Christ died for your sins, Take Communiion as commanded, love your wife as commanded, pray for our leaders (and clergy) …

Mortal sin? venial sin? Purgatory? is there a point to these?

Is it that one instance of un-Reconciled sin ( except if you would have gone to confession before dying… and if you would have gone before dying that you would be perfectly contrite … unless the priest granted absolution even though you wouldn’t have been perfectly contrite…)? I have no idea how many reversing exceptions can be written into man trying to control or define God’s province of granting forgiveness and salvation. Christ decides who is saved which is “by faith through grace”. Our sinful nature is enough to invalidate our salvation unless Christ reedems us out of our sinful nature which is 100% an act of GRACE BY CHRIST. A sinful instance not covered in the confessional cannot come close to overcoming God’s grace (sorry to shoot down the premise of so many horror flicks).

To protestants, faith is simple with explanation,evidence and backup in God’s word and visible action in our lives. In Catholicism, religion is at best intricate with complicated and questionable substantiation that robs it’s followers of the understanding that could help evangelize the world. Much easier to say “Christ taught” than “Church teaching … based upon authority … natural law … Augustine … tradition …”

Exactly when does tradition begin anyway?. Traditionally, tradition begins by superseding the prior tradition when convenient for the governing authority.

God Bless all of you from my heart.

An interesting and perceptive piece. You should post more often.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Erchomai Kyrios:

Your words are true and uplifting.

May God continue to bless you,
Anna

Hi Anna,
He blesses me every day if I will but just listen and obey. It is the Word of God that is Truth and uplifts us both. What words could we choose to better serve than to echo His own? I just thank God He is teaching me every day in His infinite patience and keep praying that my heart would be like a sponge to soak up all He has to say. Sometimes the hearts of those who are praying just spill over. The human heart is not a big enough container for our hope in His truth and with it the inexpressible joy that we have in the Lord Jesus. I see this in many people on this forum and that encourages me in my own walk. God is true and so He calls us to truth. May we grow ever truer and faithful to Him everyday putting away all false things and those things in our lives that would encumber us from following the Lord with all our hearts.

Jhn 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Jhn 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
Jhn 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

PS: My friend lost his wife to cancer, after a very long battle, Sunday night. Please pray for their family that they might rest all their grief in their firm hope they have in our Savior, Jesus Christ. I spoke with her a couple of weeks back and her faith was completely strong in the Lord - she was a real soldier to the end in spite of her suffering and I thank God for her calm and assuring witness. She knew where she was going. I remember my mom telling me about my uncle, her brother, whom she went to in order to help take care of him in his final days at home. He was unconscious and groaning pretty much the whole time but in his final moments he opened his eyes and stretched out his hands as if he were seeing a wonderful vision and began expressing the Lord’s Name’s name preceeded by O’s. Then his arms fell away and he gave up his spirit. It left everyone in the room awestruck that they had witnessed the presence of the Lord. It made that room around his deathbed like holy ground and totally vanquished any fear of death they may have had.

I’m reminded of these verses this morning.

2Cr 5:4-9 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. **Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. **

May God bless your day today,
Erchomai Kyrios

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna

,
He blesses me every day if I will but just listen and obey. It is the Word of God that is Truth and uplifts us both. What words could we choose to better serve than to echo His own? I just thank God He is teaching me every day in His infinite patience and keep praying that my heart would be like a sponge to soak up all He has to say. Sometimes the hearts of those who are praying just spill over. The human heart is not a big enough container for our hope in His truth and with it the inexpressible joy that we have in the Lord Jesus. I see this in many people on this forum and that encourages me in my own walk. God is true and so He calls us to truth. May we grow ever truer and faithful to Him everyday putting away all false things and those things in our lives that would encumber us from following the Lord with all our hearts.

Erchomai Kyrios: Every time I read your posts, I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit hovering over all these thousands and thousands of words written on this Forum. Suddenly, things become clear and disagreements fade. My heart is softened and humbled; and I am reminded to listen to the voice of God. You are right in saying, “He blesses me every day if I will but just listen and obey. It is the Word of God that is Truth and uplifts us both. What words could we choose to better serve than to echo His own?”

Qoted by Erchomai Kyrios:
Jhn 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

 

[Anna_Scott]

Over the years I have found quite a lot of stuff on the internet. I was talking more about books that one could wander into a bookstore and buy and sit down with. Back then I didn’t have a computer or access to the internet except at the library.

These days I find that I am much more interested in going ever deeper into my Catholic faith. My curiosity about other traditions was long ago sated. My survey of other religions and traditions over and my decision made, now I’m interested in learning all I can about the path I have chosen and following that path as far as it will take me.

Disciple96:

I am glad to see that you are on this path, my friend.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Disciple 96 and Anna Scott,

I felt compelled to tell the both of you your dialogue is very interesting and I really appreciate how well the two of you handle your points. Its too often that we find hurtfull post in forums. I can tell by reading both of your post that you are educated and committed to following Christ. God bless both of you. NMHS

NMHS:

What a kind thing to say. It is good to hear from you.

I will say that the participants on this particular Thread are very respectful; and I find the discussions challenging, informative, and uplifting. I do believe that most, regardless of religious affiliation, are committed to following Christ.

Though I will say that I have been “pounded” pretty hard on some other Threads. But, at least we are talking, and that’s a start.

In Pursuit of God’s Truth,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

By jmcrae:For example, there was a headline some years back that “The United Church of Canada no longer believes in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ,” and how they arrived at that was that they took a poll of the membership and realized that more than half of the members of the United Church of Canada don’t believe in the Virgin Birth.

By jmcrae: You said “my”, rather than “our.” Does everyone in your whole Church look to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed as the standard for their belief system, or is it just yourself who does this, or you and perhaps a few others, but it’s not required for everyone?

Should I take a poll like the church in Canada.

by jmcrae: And if it is a requirement for everyone to believe in it, what is your church’s official interpretation of the phrase, “We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”?

Christianity really isn’t that complicated. You see, my friend, I have no need or inclination to defend my/a church. My beliefs and experiences with Christ are intensely spiritual and intensely personal. I look to the Holy Scriptures and ask for interpretation through the Holy Spirit. I do not need a church doctrine to dictate my beliefs. I do not put my salvation in the hands of any human being, because I do not believe that doctrine or dogma can save me. Christ is my Salvation. His words sustain me and direct my life. I press forward each day, with humility, knowing that I miss the mark so often. Time and time again, God has picked me up and carried me back to His flock.

When I come face to face with Christ, do you think He will ask me what my church believed or required? or Do you think I will be accountable for my own beliefs and my own actions in this lifetime? Did I walk in the footsteps of Christ? Did I follow His Commandments? Did I love God with all my heart and soul? Did I love my neighbor as myself?

In Mark, Chapter 12, Jesus tells us what is most important:

Mark 12:28-31 (ESV): 28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

jmcrae;5361715]Do you also believe that there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

I see that you asked this question with a wink. So, I will ask, did you read the definition of Catholic in the Catholic Encyclopedia on this website as I suggested?

In Pursuit of God’s Truth,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

The nature of this question and thought process behind it is the issue. Catholicism is based upon too much detailed legalism that is in fact debatable and based upon interpretations and ?. Since details were the questions instead of the fundamental difference: fundamentals (protestant) vs substitution of fundamentals with complication (Catholic).

Why confuse people with all of the detailed apologetics when “childlike faith” is the necessary part?

Catholic doctrine greatly exceeds the 613 Hebrew laws of the O.T. The exhaustive apologetics seem in spirit contrary to Christ’s commandments to simplify (love God above all else, love thy neighbor as thyself, and on another occasion do this in rememberance of me).
The culture of Ritual has clouded the essential issues causing people to believe that repetitive prayers (which aren’t even the words/thoughts of the person praying), ritual and trusting that their own actions directed by the church will provide salvation.

a few of the cases where “God’s Unchanging Truth” has been revised or “reinterprated?”: usery; fish on friday; no water before mass/communion (maybe skip brushing teeth b4 mass to avoid that potential ride to hell); indulgences which have just been reinstated; Earth centered universe; The Assumption; no C-sections; basing natural law on an acceptable subset of observations; temporal barriers not a barrier in NFP (we should believe that 1% of contraceptive failures are God’s active will), Mass on Sunday counts and other days don’t count; An amazing progression of rules governing sexual behavior through history. Were any of these correct? If they were correct, why change? If they aren’t believed to have been correct, why is the current thinking correct? Maybe thinking in place of believing is the problem.

Conversely, Ignoring of those things given by God : “In the beginning … each after their own kind” somehow leads to “evolution not necessarily in disagreement with church teachings”. Regarding the Torah as “poetic” (sorry, God’s work through Moses trumps anything in the post Constantine Catholic history)…, Clear cut definitions for clergy listed in Timothy and yet we have the Church policy …, No graven images (a lot of people pray to those works of art). “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father” yet we constantly call the Proests “Father” … lots and lots of these, I’m sure we have all heard them from the occasional Protestant/Catholic discussions.

Instead of teaching complicated doctrine and dogma and reinforcement of performance based salvation, donate some time to homeless people as commanded, feed the poor as commanded, Tell them Christ died for their sins as commanded, believe as commanded that Christ died for your sins, Take Communiion as commanded, love your wife as commanded, pray for our leaders (and clergy) …

Mortal sin? venial sin? Purgatory? is there a point to these?

Is it that one instance of un-Reconciled sin ( except if you would have gone to confession before dying… and if you would have gone before dying that you would be perfectly contrite … unless the priest granted absolution even though you wouldn’t have been perfectly contrite…)? I have no idea how many reversing exceptions can be written into man trying to control or define God’s province of granting forgiveness and salvation. Christ decides who is saved which is “by faith through grace”. Our sinful nature is enough to invalidate our salvation unless Christ reedems us out of our sinful nature which is 100% an act of GRACE BY CHRIST. A sinful instance not covered in the confessional cannot come close to overcoming God’s grace (sorry to shoot down the premise of so many horror flicks).

To protestants, faith is simple with explanation,evidence and backup in God’s word and visible action in our lives. In Catholicism, religion is at best intricate with complicated and questionable substantiation that robs it’s followers of the understanding that could help evangelize the world. Much easier to say “Christ taught” than “Church teaching … based upon authority … natural law … Augustine … tradition …”

Exactly when does tradition begin anyway?. Traditionally, tradition begins by superseding the prior tradition when convenient for the governing authority.

God Bless all of you from my heart.

Very interesting perspective. Hope you will stick around.

Anna

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Disciple96: It is really very easy to find Statements of Faith for just about any religion. Here are a few links to get you started:

Confession of Faith of the
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
from the Constitution of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
archive.elca.org/communication/faith.html

The Baptist Faith and Message (Southern Baptist Convention)
sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

Methodist Beliefs: Wesleyan Essentials
student.sun.ac.za/methsoc/wes.htm

Presbyterian
The Brief Statement of Faith
pcusa.org/101/101-faith.htm

Resurrection
Statement of Faith; Nicene Creed
resurrectiontexas.com/beliefs.asp

A BRIEF STATEMENT OF OUR FAITH
By the Right Reverend Dean E. Wolfe
IX Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Kansas
episcopal-ks.org/news/StatementofFaith.html

In Pursuit of God’s Truth,
Anna

Dear Anna: In the early 30’s, 1932 I believe, the Lambreth Confrence of the Church of England declared that artificial birth control was acceptable. This despite the fact that all christian churches to that time had declared artificial birth control to be a sin. Artificial birth control swept the Protestant world. I remember when the Methodist church announced that it no longer held the Apostle’s Creed to be of use. The Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church teaches that it and it alone to be the true church founded by Christ. The other Lutheran churches are not. The disintergration of Protestantism from the beginning is well documented throughout history. From Luther on down Protestantism has split time after time until the last I heard there are more than 35,000 different Protestant churches in the U.S… This is, I think, a sign of the truth of the Catholic Church. She is still headed by Christ and His Vicar, the Pope. The signs of the Church are:

1. Unity - one in faith
2. Holy - guided by the Holy Spirit
3. Catholic - Greek for universal - for all mankind
4. Apostolic - from the apostles sent by Christ
   and a fifth which is not usually stated but true - persecuted - not accepted and violently rejected by the world. Prayers. bobmck

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Very interesting perspective. Hope you will stick around.

Anna

By their works you shall know them!! Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is the largest supplier of hospitals, orphanages, old age homes, shelters for homosexuals, colleges, universities, elementary and secondary schools, etc. in the world. Blessed Mother Theresa is just one example. bobmck

 

[jmcrae]

Should I take a poll like the church in Canada.

If you don’t know already what your Church teaches you to believe, then perhaps it is, in fact, just like that Church here in Canada, and it’s up to the individual members, what they believe in, without any external standards?

Christianity really isn’t that complicated. You see, my friend, I have no need or inclination to defend my/a church. My beliefs and experiences with Christ are intensely spiritual and intensely personal. I look to the Holy Scriptures and ask for interpretation through the Holy Spirit. I do not need a church doctrine to dictate my beliefs.

So, it sounds to me here like you are saying that you are the arbiter of your beliefs; not your Church. Right?

When I come face to face with Christ, do you think He will ask me what my church believed or required?

Yes, and He will want to know how well you obeyed it, especially if you sincerely believed that it was His Church.

or Do you think I will be accountable for my own beliefs and my own actions in this lifetime?

There is no contradiction. If you believe what your Church teaches, then these are your beliefs. But if you are making it up as you go along, for yourself, then what you are doing is putting yourself ahead of your Church, exactly like those people in that Church here in Canada - and there is no accountability there, is there?

 

[distracted]

Catholic doctrine greatly exceeds the 613 Hebrew laws of the O.T. The exhaustive apologetics seem in spirit contrary to Christ’s commandments to simplify (love God above all else, love thy neighbor as thyself, and on another occasion do this in rememberance of me).
The culture of Ritual has clouded the essential issues causing people to believe that repetitive prayers (which aren’t even the words/thoughts of the person praying), ritual and trusting that their own actions directed by the church will provide salvation.

.

why do you call yourself Catholic???

a Catholic is someone who accepts the teachings of the Catholic Church…

 

[Anna_Scott]

If you don’t know already what your Church teaches you to believe, then perhaps it is, in fact, just like that Church here in Canada, and it’s up to the individual members, what they believe in, without any external standards?

So, it sounds to me here like you are saying that you are the arbiter of your beliefs; not your Church. Right?

Yes, and He will want to know how well you obeyed it, especially if you sincerely believed that it was His Church.

There is no contradiction. If you believe what your Church teaches, then these are your beliefs. But if you are making it up as you go along, for yourself, then what you are doing is putting yourself ahead of your Church, exactly like those people in that Church here in Canada - and there is no accountability there, is there?

My dear friend, I think the dialogue between us is demonstrating a core difference in our beliefs; and at this point in time, this difference does indeed prevent unity.

If I understand you correctly, you are receiving your beliefs, your interpretation of Holy Scripture, and your very salvation from the Roman Catholic Church.

I believe that Christ is the author of our salvation. The Holy Scripture, contains truth–illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

And no: “I am not making it up as I go along.” Surely, you can see this in the many Scriptures that I have quoted on this Thread.

The big question is this: Do you doubt that the Word of God is sufficient to accomplish salvation and reveal truth?

The Word of God is more powerful than human comprehension. Hebrews gives us a glimpse of that power:

Hebrews 4:12-13 (ESV): 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

If any church teaches that which contradicts Holy Scripture, should we accept it?

When we look back through the history of Christianity, we find leaders and teachers espousing ideas that are clearly false doctrines. False doctrines led to persecutions, slaughter of innocent people, torture, forced conversions, imprisonment, suppression of knowledge, marginalization of the Jewish people, and so much more evil.

False doctrines in different world religions continue to bring about terrible fruits, today.

This can be found in both Catholic and non-Catholic history. So, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. God knows Martin Luther had plenty of blood on his hands, as did other “reformers.”

I am saying all this to emphasize the importance of yielding to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who reveals truth and intercedes on our behalf.

Also to say that we need to follow 1 Thessalonians 5 and test everything: 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

The Scriptures have much to say about the Holy Spirit. These are only a few verses:

Romans 8:26-27 (ESV): 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[a] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Footnotes: a. Romans 8:27

Luke, Chapter 2, speaks of the Holy Spirit’s revelation to Simeon: 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

Luke 11:13 (ESV): 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

John 14:25-26 (ESV): 25 "These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Acts 1:6-8 (ESV): So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 5:31-32 (ESV): 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

I will write more later.

In Pursuit of God’s Truth,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

By their works you shall know them!! Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is the largest supplier of hospitals, orphanages, old age homes, shelters for homosexuals, colleges, universities, elementary and secondary schools, etc. in the world. Blessed Mother Theresa is just one example. bobmck

Bob:

I agree. As you said, “By their works you shall know them.” The Catholic Church has done many wonderful things. As I said in an earlier post, I have great respect for Pope John Paul II.

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

My dear friend, I think the dialogue between us is demonstrating a core difference in our beliefs; and at this point in time, this difference does indeed prevent unity.

If I understand you correctly, you are receiving your beliefs, your interpretation of Holy Scripture, and your very salvation from the Roman Catholic Church.

I receive my salvation from Christ, through His Church. The Church is His vehicle of communication.

I believe that Christ is the author of our salvation. The Holy Scripture, contains truth–illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I receive my salvation from Christ, through His Church. The Church is His vehicle of communication.

And the Scriptures were given to us by the Church, by means of the infallible declaration of Pope Innocent I, in 405 AD. So, → Christ, → Church, → Scriptures.

Christ generated the Church, and the Church generated the Scriptures.

Okay, so then who is your Authority, here on the earth? Are you your own authority (“I go directly to God” makes you to be your own authority, since God’s voice cannot be heard with the ears.)

Certainly not. God’s Word is the Person of Jesus Christ, and we receive that Word by means of the Catholic Church, which brings it to us in the Holy Tradition, in the Sacraments, and in the Scriptures.

If any Church teaches what contradicts the Holy Tradition, we should not accept that, either. But if someone says that the Holy Tradition contradicts the Scriptures, then they are misunderstanding either the Scriptures, or the Holy Tradition, or else both.

The Word of God established a Church and gave us a Holy Tradition; He did not write a book. The book came nearly 400 years later.

Arius, Nestorius, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Mennos, Zwingli, Smythe, King Henry VIII, and the list goes on.

First, I need to know a couple of things:

Who is your Priest?
Who is the mediator between you and God?
Must we have an earthly authority to pray to God?

 

[jmcrae]

First, I need to know a couple of things:

Who is your Priest?

I have several priests.

Who is the mediator between you and God?

Jesus Christ is. However, His death on the Cross does not automatically make me a Christian, and doesn’t teach me everything I need to know about His requirements in this life.

My priests are my teachers - they teach me the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition, and this is how I know that Jesus died for my sins in the first place (since I wasn’t there, at the time - I didn’t personally witness it) - and what it means to me, and how I am supposed to respond, etc.

Must we have an earthly authority to pray to God?

We aren’t talking about praying - anybody can pray, even heretics, and even people who know absolutely nothing about God at all.

We are talking about learning what is true about God, and what is not true (because I think hopefully you would agree that we have to believe what is true about God, and reject whatever is false), and about learning right from wrong (because we have to obey God, but if we don’t know what He has commanded, it’s kind of hard to obey Him), and how we are supposed to live out our faith day to day, so as to be a pleasing offering to God at the moment of our death.