What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Peter_J]

Hello Peter

Thanks for reading it, and thanks to the others reading also!

The opening index page of the encyclopedia states 1907-1912 and then the 1913 edition and an index followed as volume 16 in 1914.

On the opening page of forums.catholic-questions.org/ there are tabs at the top which may be selected. reading them from left to right : faith, forums (this thread is in forums), groups, ENCYCLOPEDIA, chastity, pilgrimages, shop.

The encyclopedia url is oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Home

Thank you for clarifying.

That encyclopedia has a fairly well-established fan base (btw, it can be found on a number of Catholics websites, e.g. newadvent) – which is not terribly surprising, seeing as it comes from the time period in between Vatican I and Vatican II. (Whenever I meet a fellow Catholic for the first time, I always ask him/her what he/she thinks of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. Well, not really “always”, more like “often” or “on occasion”. But you get the idea. )

click on “C” to open a list containing “Catholic” which is a link to the url:

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Catholic

Computers and the internet are tremendously enabling, aren’t they? Now if I could only learn to type.

Yes, very enabling. Those poor Amish …

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Of course it was always God-breathed - just as the world has always been round, even when people believed it to be disk-shaped or flat. However, the knowledge of which books were the ones that were God-breathed did not come to the human race until 405 AD, through the infallible declaration from Pope Innocent I.

Good morning J,
You stated formerly that, “it was not until 405 AD that that word became considered to be God-breathed.” forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5372717&highlight=God+Breathed#post5372717 One might construe that as quite a loosey goosey implication. It almost seems the 405AD implication is:
:shrug:Hey you know what? After we’ve carefully deliberated over these texts these last 362 years I’ve now decided that it is time that the 4 Gospels handed down to us by apostolic authority and the early church fathers really is Scripture after all! O’ yes and furthermore, about those books of Moses, that Jesus Himself actually quoted, I just had a revelation that they just might be Scripture too, as well as the prophets that Christ read from when He opened the books in the synagoges and said, “This day are the Scriptures fulfilled in your hearing”. Lk4:21.
We also see Jesus describing the extent of the canon (Mt.23:34-35; Lk.11:49-51) and our Lord also even quotes the 3 part division of the Old Testament in the same way that Philo did.
Even saying the human race (which is too broad a class, since not everyone derived from Adam’s race believes but only those born of the Spirit of God) did not have knowledge that these books were Scripture miscontrues the reality of the Christ’s Church during the first 4 centuries. It is simply untrue and misleading to say so.

Obviously, some books had already been suspected to be, notably the 46 books of the Old Testament and the four Gospels, But the complete list was not known for certain until 405 AD, and not until the full list was known, did it become possible to translate and promulgate Bibles.

When you say some books were just “suspected” to be “God Breathed” I believe you greatly err from the truth. You may want to read some of the extant works of the earlier period. There are also pretty good compilations where you can get that in brief. One I’d highly recommend is The Age of Martyrs by Abbot Giuseppe Ricciotti. It is sufficient to say, however, that Christians, both East and West and all around the Med, as well as across the Channel, believed these texts were “God Breathed”. As I’ve already mentioned, one of the reasons why Marcion was excommunicated was for extricating the texts that didn’t line up with his self made gnostic doctrine. The only Gospel he accepted was Luke’s and even that he cut up and renamed it to his own. It would seem that Jefferson then took his que from Marcion. During the Christian persecutions between the reigns of Diocletian and Constantine we know that bishops, pastors, deacons, subdeacons and lectors hid their codices from the Roman authorities and were executed or were tortured and imprisioned as a result. The Church at large considered anyone who turned over the Scriptures to the soldiers to be traitors - they were expected to lead by their willingness to suffer for the word of God. Does that sound like they were just ‘considering’ if their codices might just be Scripture or that they knew they were? The loss of our early codices is incalculable by the widespread ordered destruction of Christian texts. It is very probable that all our 1rst Century copies of the Scriptures were destroyed or lost as a result of the emperor’s edict. However, we do have a fragment from John’s Gospel from approximately 120AD and the Magdalen papyrus some would argue is first century. We do also have other manuscripts that are early but the earliest codex we have is Sinaiticus which contained the entire New testament and is dated almost a century prior to Pope Innocent I. I would kindly ask you to re-examine your statement in light of what is known to be true. Perhaps we could discuss this further on another thread, since it really is derivative to the identification of obstacles to unity that we are discussing in this thread. The most compelling reason for stamping the texts as Canon was not to newly introduce them as God Breathed but to prevent later counterfeits from adultering the Church, as well as to prevent heretics such as Marcion from cutting up the Scriptures handed down to them at blood cost by the early Christian Church.
Totus verum adveho ex Deus,
Maranantha, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

knowledge is power but ignorance is bliss

Which one is freedom? I guess it depends on what you believe enslaves you

Hey Hum, not sure I understand what point you are trying to make here. Could you please clarify? Is there something you want to add to the discussion for consideration?
Thanks, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hey Anna. I’m curious what you believe. I understand, of course, that you don’t agree with the Catholic teaching of Papal Infallibility; but, specifically, do you believe that the Pope cannot ever speak infallibly? Or do you believe that he can under some circumstances (but not the circumstances that we Catholics say)?

Peter:

You asked me this question days ago, and I never got back to you. I apologize for taking so long.

To answer your question regarding Papal Infallibility: I would not say that I believe the Pope is never infallible.

I believe that God can work through whomever He chooses, through the power of the Holy Spirit. I do believe that we are all known by our fruits, as we are told in Holy Scripture.

I will say that I have a great respect for Pope John Paul II. He is the first Pope who really caught my attention. I think the love of Christ was demonstrated in Pope John Paul’s tireless effort and prayers for human rights and in showing us how we should treat one another. He embraced the Jewish people in a way that made so many, myself included, look at the history of Christianity, and ask forgiveness for the sins that were committed by some who called themselves Christian.

I have read Christian writers, who speak with great respect for this Pope. In one of the books about Pope John Paul II, Billy Graham wrote the forward.

When I look back through the history of the last 2,000 years, and then consider all that is happening today; I would not put complete faith in any human being. I believe that we must always guard our hearts and pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I also believe that failure to confess our sins, and failure to truly repent, when asking forgiveness, can lead to a hindrance in our ability to receive the work of the Holy Spirit in us. I do believe that we can hear that “still small voice” of God, without going through an earthly hierarchy.

I think one of the things that baffles me about the RCC is the complicated hierarchy. Christ abolished the Levitical Priesthood and became our High Priest and the only Mediator between God and mankind. If you can shed some light on this, I would welcome your comments.

1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV): 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus. . . .

Hebrews 7:11-28 (ESV): 11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is witnessed of him,

"You are a priest forever,

after the order of Melchizedek."

18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

"The Lord has sworn

and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’"

22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost[a] those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Humbly,
Anna

 

[superdave69]

Erchomai Kyrios:
Thank you for your post, My 20 year career in the U.S. Navy was the best experience in my life. Yes we all want to follow Christ and be filled with the Holy Spirit. In my life after many years, I find that Prayer has been my biggest helper. I have had to learn to find and practice Un-conditional Love for all people, even the one’s that are my enemies. Have not got that part perfected 100% but working on it. People do have problems with thinking they own things, such as cars, houses ECT. The real answer is we own nothing, not even our own life. (I will let you think on that one) Without Christ and the Holly Spirit we are nothing. As Super Dave I am nothing, unless I submit myself, not physical self, but my mind, heart and soul completely with un-conditional Love, I will not receive the full grace of Jesus Christ. Will I fail as a sinner, yes, yes, that is why Christ died for us. We have 100 % responsibility to strive in asking for his forgiveness, and fall on our knee’s and pray with open hearts and souls to our last days. The greatest gift is given when we pray for wisdom, and then in silence listen for God to answer. Preach and teach so others can, receive the wonderful gift we have. Do not put a log in our brothers eye, but show him Love and he will listen.

God Bless
Super Dave (I got that nickname as I always say instead of good bye, Have a super day!)

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Hi J,
It would seem that you are in disagreement with St Paul, who said in his teaching of the young pastor Timothy,

There are so many places in Scripture that the Lord’s prophets, His apostles and saints and even Jesus Himself refer to Scripture that I find it hard to believe that anyone could dismiss it as not being God breathed. It did not become God breathed in 405AD but was always God breathed. In fact the Catholic church excommunicated Marcion for saying that the Hebrew Scriptures and all other Books of the Testament of Christ, except Paul’s epistle were not from the Holy Spirit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope
Jesus said

St Peter - speaking and teaching highprayer: ex Cathedra of course) **by the Holy Spirit **

The Apostles and leaders of the Church Christ founded

So my question is if Jesus Himself stated Scripture cannot be brokenand & if Peter apostle & first pope stated Scripture was of the Holy Spirit, why do you state that the RCC only came to this conclusion in 405 AD? Am I missing something?

Pacis quod spes ut est ex Sarcalogos exsisto nobis totus,
in Christo Iesu, Erchomai Kyrios.
:bible1:

The Scripture refered to in 2 Tim which Timothy was aware of from his youth was the Old Testament. The New Testament was in the process of being written but not finished at that time. bobmck

 

[SSTeacher]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

So, after fifty pages, I propose that the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians seems to be disagreement over the question of Authority.

Anybody disagree?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Anna_Scott]

Originally Posted by SSTeacher View Post
Is it,

Mick:

I think “authority” is a huge obstacle. My post, from yesterday, gives you an idea of the view of Papal infallibility, from outside Catholicism looking in.

Regarding the other issues:

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
I believe you could call it an “event,” in that there is a moment when we realized that we are sinners, in need of reconciliation to God; we acknowledge that Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world and atoned for those sins with the sacrifice of His precious body and blood; we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ, the one mediator between God and mankind; we are Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit; and with a repentant heart and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we begin to follow in the footsteps of Christ-though we fail again an again.

Salvation is also a process as the fruits of our faith grow over time, according to the work that is done in us through the Holy Spirit, acknowledging that any good thought, intention, or deed comes from God alone. Though we are saved by faith alone and cannot receive salvation through our own works, we are also refined by the Holy Spirit as we continue our journey. If Christ truly abides in us, and we in Him; then our works and deeds will testify to that-as “faith without works is dead.” Our journey or “process” can be deeply hindered by unconfessed sins in our lives, and also by the lack of true repentance when we do confess our sins and ask forgiveness.

b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? A point of disagreement, but not high on the list of obstacles to unity.

c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
I have never heard of this practice in a Protestant church, but I do pray for the salvation of the departed. Perhaps it is the urging of the Holy Spirit.

d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
A point of disagreement, but not high on the list of obstacles to unity.

e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
I do not see this as an obstacle to unity.

f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
This is a huge issue. First, I think we do have some common elements such as belief that we must have confessed our sins with a repentant heart to prepare for the Holy Sacrament.

I believe the Holy Communion is symbolic and Christ is present in Spirit. When I began to study the history of Christianity, I was rather shocked to find the idea of consuming the “body and blood of Christ” was viewed by some as “cannibalism.” As you know the Jewish people were never to consume the blood of any food or sacrifice.

g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
I confess my sins to God, through Jesus Christ, our High Priest and one Mediator.

h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
A point of disagreement, but not high on the list of obstacles to unity.

Anna

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

The Scripture refered to in 2 Tim which Timothy was aware of from his youth was the Old Testament. The New Testament was in the process of being written but not finished at that time. bobmck

**Hi Bob, **
Yes, I agree that for the most part Paul was speaking of the Old Testament, this is especially true when he was speaking with the Bereans and they searched the Scriptures. There was no doubt on the Bereans part that they considered the Old Testament to be ‘God Breathed’ and that their search for Christ was to be found in the those older texts and not the recent ones. It is also apparent that at least 3 of the 4 Gospels, as well as parchments containing the Lord’s words, were also in circulation at the time. So it is not not a foregone conclusion that Paul was only speaking only of the Old Testament but also possibly at least the Words of our Lord. For by the time Paul was beheaded by Nero we estimate that over 90% of the New Testament had already been written.
The below quote could infer either a verbal or a written gospel - if written it was probably incorporated by Luke into his own…

Rom 2:15-16 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

… since we know that there is no Gospel bearing Paul’s name ever mentioned by the ECF. Of course we do know there is one bearing Luke’s name and we also know that he was a missionary companion of Paul and, according to Eusebius and even earlier witnesses and even Paul himself describes him as a coworker in the Gospel. We know Mark was a scribe for Peter. Luke is described by Paul as a dear friend as well educated in his epistle to the Colossians 4:14. With regard to the Synoptic Gospels Luke has more unique verse that both Matthew and Mark combine. 520 out of 1149. Matthew only has 300 and Mark a mere 31. The Augustinian theory is Luke consulted both Mark and Matthew’s gospel, this may indeed have been helped in compilation with Paul who he ministered with. At any rate we’d be amiss if we did not say Luke was at least heavily influenced by Paul. One only has to read the Book of Acts to see that is true. There may also be some hints from Paul’s epistles.

2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry. And Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus. Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come–and the books, especially the parchments.

2Ti 2:7-8 Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel

There is extrabiblical sources that mention how the New Testament was created. I usually quote Eusebius of Caesarea but this one is even earlier.

In the History of the Patriarchs, Theonas (300 AD) it states
Then the Gospel of Mark, which he wrote in Greek, while Peter, chief of the apostles, was with him, and which was read in the assembly of the princes. Then the Gospel of Luke, the disciple of Paul, which he wrote in Greek at Antioch. The Gospel of John, the son of Zebedee, whom his disciples, after he had grown old, frequently solicited until he wrote it in Greek at Ephesus. The book of the Acts of the Apostles and Disciples, called Praxeis. The book of the Epistles of Paul the Elect, which contains fourteen epistles. The book of the Revelation of John the Evangelist, or the Apocalypse». There is also the book of the Didascalia, or Teaching of the Apostles, and Canons of the Church, written by the apostles before they dispersed to preach the gospel. These are the books delivered to the Catholic and Apostolic Church. After them come the books of the Fathers and Doctors, which they composed through the instruction of the Holy Ghost, such as the homilies and other writings; for they added nothing to the Scriptures, and took nothing away from them.

The point I was originally trying to establish, however, was that the church didn’t need to wait until 405 AD to both Old Testament Literature as well New Testament was God breathed. I already brought out the fact that during Diocletian’s reign that people were going to their death rather than surrender the Scriptures. I was also trying to rebut the notion that the Codices containing the New Testament came together after the Pope Innocent the first. Their were first century codices as well. The earliest full New Testament Codex we have is Sinaiticus, from St Catherines which is dated to 325 AD or earlier. The importance of Scripture is indeed critical our faith . Jesus said:

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that comes from the mouth of God.

Ignatius stated to those who stated they would not believe the Gospels unless they find it in the Old Testament.

“It is written!” They answered me, “That remains to be proved.” However to me Jesus Christ is all over the ancient texts. - ECF:;1.84 AD 105

(cont’d)

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

(cont’d)
Irenaeus stated:

"We have learned the plan of salvation from no one else other than from those who the gospel has come down to us. For they did at one time proclaim the gospel in public. And at a later period, by the Will of God, they handed the Gospel down to us in the Scriptures - to be the ground and the pillar of our Faith. c. 165 AD ECF W/W 1.414
“Since therefore the tradition from the apostles does exist in the Church and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by the apostles who did also write the gospels.” ECF E/W 1.497

Hippolytus stated:

Brethren, there is one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures and from no other source… Even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them. c. 195AD ECF: W; 5.227

There are dozens of these quotes that should substantiate therefore that both the Old Testament and the New Testament Scriptures were indeed considered God breathed - which can only mean that they believed, as Peter himself stated - endowed to them by the
Pneuma Hagios. Certainly the Church in making the Canon official was to seal what they already knew to be God Breathed.

Sorry have to run - maybe more later
May God Bless. Erchomai Kyrios

 

[Anna_Scott]

By Erchomai Kyrios-Irenaeus stated:
"We have learned the plan of salvation from no one else other than from those who the gospel has come down to us. For they did at one time proclaim the gospel in public. And at a later period, by the Will of God, they handed the Gospel down to us in the Scriptures - to be the ground and the pillar of our Faith. c. 165 AD ECF W/W 1.414
“Since therefore the tradition from the apostles does exist in the Church and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by the apostles who did also write the gospels.” ECF E/W 1.497

By Erchomai Kyrios-Hippolytus stated:
Brethren, there is one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures and from no other source… Even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them. c. 195AD ECF: W; 5.227

By Erchomai Kyrios
There are dozens of these quotes that should substantiate therefore that both the Old Testament and the New Testament Scriptures were indeed considered God breathed - which can only mean that they believed, as Peter himself stated - endowed to them by the
Pneuma Hagios. Certainly the Church in making the Canon official was to seal what they already knew to be God Breathed.

Erchomai Kyrios:

Excellent Post. I always enjoy your reference to the Church Fathers as well as the Scripture.

One of the many reasons I enjoy this Catholic Forum, is the knowledge of the history of Christianity discussed here. That is one area which I have found to be lacking in the Protestant sector, where I reside. I have been reading and researching for the last few years, but there is so much to cover.

Thank you for sharing your views and your knowledge,
Anna

 

[Bob_McKissick]

knowledge is power but ignorance is bliss

Which one is freedom? I guess it depends on what you believe enslaves you

The Nietzsche quote brings my response, “He who exalts himself is wishing to get his butt kicked!” bobmck

 

[jmcrae]

**Hi Bob, **
Yes, I agree that for the most part Paul was speaking of the Old Testament, this is especially true when he was speaking with the Bereans and they searched the Scriptures. There was no doubt on the Bereans part that they considered the Old Testament to be ‘God Breathed’ and that their search for Christ was to be found in the those older texts and not the recent ones. It is also apparent that at least 3 of the 4 Gospels, as well as parchments containing the Lord’s words, were also in circulation at the time.

The Gospels were written between 70 and 95 AD. St. Paul was beheaded in 67 AD.

So it is not not a foregone conclusion that Paul was only speaking only of the Old Testament but also possibly at least the Words of our Lord. For by the time Paul was beheaded by Nero we estimate that over 90% of the New Testament had already been written.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

The Scripture refered to in 2 Tim which Timothy was aware of from his youth was the Old Testament. The New Testament was in the process of being written but not finished at that time. bobmck

You make the point for the Church in that the Church excommunicated one who attack the Scriptures. By what authority did the Church do this if Solo Scriptura is true. The attacker has the same right to his interpretation as any one else so where did the Church get the authority to excommunicate some one for saying what he believed to be what the Scripture said? bobmck

 

[greggy53]

It is undeniable that there is hatred in some circles of protestantism and Orthodoxy towards the Catholic Church. Of course, that hatred is equally matched in some circles of Catholicism towards Orthodoxy and protestantism. Sad, isn’t it?

Jon

When we were young my wife and I attended a couple different Protestant churches. Having been raised Catholic time and time again we found ourselves defending the Catholic faith against all sorts of crazy and baselss claims. Now a days in the Catholic faith from time to time I find my self defending the Protestant faiths against the same kind of ignorance, and prejudice. People love to repeat nasty things about people they don’t know. I’m guilty of it myself sometimes…Lord have Mercy.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

The Scripture refered to in 2 Tim which Timothy was aware of from his youth was the Old Testament. The New Testament was in the process of being written but not finished at that time. bobmck

As I understand it, the Scripture wasn’t made Cannon until that time. There were a lot of “scriptures” that were not inspired that had to be weeded out. That is what I believe you may have missed. My prayers and good wishes to you. bobmck

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

SuperDave:

Erchomai Kyrios:
Thank you for your post, My 20 year career in the U.S. Navy was the best experience in my life. Yes we all want to follow Christ and be filled with the Holy Spirit. In my life after many years, I find that Prayer has been my biggest helper. I have had to learn to find and practice Un-conditional Love for all people, even the one’s that are my enemies. Have not got that part perfected 100% but working on it. People do have problems with thinking they own things, such as cars, houses ECT. The real answer is we own nothing, not even our own life. (I will let you think on that one) Without Christ and the Holly Spirit we are nothing. As Super Dave I am nothing, unless I submit myself, not physical self, but my mind, heart and soul completely with un-conditional Love, I will not receive the full grace of Jesus Christ. Will I fail as a sinner, yes, yes, that is why Christ died for us. We have 100 % responsibility to strive in asking for his forgiveness, and fall on our knee’s and pray with open hearts and souls to our last days. The greatest gift is given when we pray for wisdom, and then in silence listen for God to answer. Preach and teach so others can, receive the wonderful gift we have. Do not put a log in our brothers eye, but show him Love and he will listen.

God Bless
Super Dave (I got that nickname as I always say instead of good bye, Have a super day!)

Hi Dave,
Of course there are good men and women in every branch of the service but I will always be partial to the United States Navy. I worked on the flight deck, mostly night ops until my last year in, and I experienced alot of good teamwork. It was also the first time I read the Bible clear through as well with alot of help from the Chaplain and one of our pilots.
I would absolutely agree that one can feel God presence in their walk by fervent prayers. I also believe that to be true in our devotional readings from the Bible. I’m a musician and from experience I will also say He brings us ever closer when we are worshipping Him in song as well. Just look at those Psalms! One particular study our music team did was especially poignant to me. We were doing some of Old Testament studies and talking about how when the Israelites went into battle the musicians they were always out in front of the army worshipping God. We also talked about how when David came back from the victory that the Lord had given them over their enemies that He danced to the Lord with all of His might. Worshipping God whether in song, in prayer or in studying His Word and reflecting upon it brings us many precious “God moments”. I would top that list with holy communion.
I agree also that we cannot walk with Christ unless our hearts are submitted to Him and we place our conscience before Him confessing our sin. He said to take up our cross daily and follow Him. This is a continual walk and not a one time event. It doesn’t matter how many times we have walked under the influence of His Holy Spirit we must be aware we can fall and fail God if our hearts are not right before Him. You and I are in agreement that “we can do nothing without Him”. I agree also that not even our life is our own but that we live and breathe through Him who IS Life. If we live in Christ and partake of the cross then we shall also be raised with Him and “will be” though we all die a first death. When I look at the counterpoint, the anti-christ “that was, and is not” (Rev 17:8,11) I also see the contrast between eternal life and eternal death. I believe all Scripture and so too the Book of Daniel 12:2, without reservation,

“many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

We are all given the opportunity to know God and everyone of us will see the Truth of God one day.
Certainly I hope never to put even a splinter into my brother’s eye without looking first at the log in my own. And If you see me do so please hold me accountable and send me a private message. All sin is blinding to he who initiates sin, especially when it is the sin of pride.
Although I realize it may be a point of contention, I do hold to Scripture being “God Breathed” as our Early Church fathers did, and believe there is tons of empirical evidence to establish that as a truth. I also wnat to say that I certainly am not here for the sake of winning arguments. Winning arguments for the sake of winning arguments is a fools errand that will not win unbelievers to Christ, nor will it exhort believers forward in His grace. I do, however, believe Truth and love are related, seeing that both originate in God Himself, and so believe we should pursue truth. Sometimes truth can be as a garderner’s spade in the heart but without it where can the Holy Spirit plant fruit producing seed? So while I do not want to be insensitive to people I do not care if pride, mine or anyone elses, is a casuality within the pursuit of truths. After all I think we can all agree that pride is one of the deadliest, if not the #1, of all the 7 deadly sins. I actually stated in a previous post that I believe it is pride that is one of the biggest obstacles in any union; that goes within the RCC itself, any denomination, any family, or at the individual level. Being a student of Christian history I see firsthand that one of the things that has plagued the Church from her true course in Christ has been human pride. In my life it has been an obstacle to my obedience to God whom I love and so I accept that persoanl struggle to lay it all down upon the cross of Jesus. The Lord is still teaching me and I am still listening. It must be so if I am to live to the Savior.

May God Bless, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[superdave69]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
556 On the threshold of the public life: the baptism; on the threshold of the Passover: the Transfiguration. Jesus’ baptism proclaimed “the mystery of the first regeneration”, namely, our Baptism; the Transfiguration “is the sacrament of the second regeneration”: our own Resurrection. (see note 300) From now on we share in the Lord’s Resurrection through the Spirit who acts in the sacraments of the Body of Christ. The Transfiguration gives us a foretaste of Christ’s glorious coming, when he “will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body.” (see note 301) But it also recalls that “it is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God”: (see note 302) Peter did not yet understand this when he wanted to remain with Christ on the mountain. It has been reserved for you, Peter, but for after death. For now, Jesus says: “Go down to toil on earth, to serve on earth, to be scorned and crucified on earth. Life goes down to be killed; Bread goes down to suffer hunger; the Way goes down to be exhausted on his journey; the Spring goes down to suffer thirst; and you refuse to suffer?” (see note 303)784 On entering the People of God through faith and Baptism, one receives a share in this people’s unique, priestly vocation: “Christ the Lord, high priest taken from among men, has made this new people ‘a kingdom of priests to God, his Father.’ The baptized, by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood.” (see note 209)1141 The celebrating assembly is the community of the baptized who, “by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, that through all the works of Christian men they may offer spiritual sacrifices.” (see note 9) This “common priesthood” is that of Christ the sole priest, in which all his members participate: (see note 10) Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy, and to which the Christian people, “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people,” have a right and an obligation by reason of their Baptism. (see note 11)
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), (see note 4) and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.” (see note 5)Read More
1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.” (see note 7)Read More
1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit. (see note 65)

Supporting Bible Passages

Matthew Chapter 3
16: And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; 17: and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."Matthew Chapter 28
19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,Read More
John Chapter 1
33: I myself did not know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, `He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
John Chapter 3
5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Acts Chapter 2
38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
Acts Chapter 22
16: And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
Galatians Chapter 3
27: For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.Read More
Titus Chapter 3
4: but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5: he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6: which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7: so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
1 Peter Chapter 3
18: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19: in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20: who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

As I understand it, the Scripture wasn’t made Cannon until that time. There were a lot of “scriptures” that were not inspired that had to be weeded out. That is what I believe you may have missed. My prayers and good wishes to you. bobmck

Hi Bob,
You didn’t quote me but I’m guessing the message was meant for me. I really didn’t miss the canonization of Scripture, if we want to be technical it wasn’t until the Council of Trent that it actually became canon. In 382 during the Council of Rome Pope Damascus listed the same books that would be named in th Council of Trent. Saint Jerome at that time argued for the Hebre Bible and not the Septuagint but under the Popes direction included them as apocrypha. But it wasn’t until 1545, when the Council of Trent was convened to stop the tide of Protestantism that the Roman Catholic canon became official and both the Old Testament (the former) and New Testament received finality. By this time Wycliffe and Hus had already translated the Latin versions into the language of the people, which was outlawed by the Church. Jan Hus was tried during the council of Constance, during the perioid where there were multiple Popes, and he was burned at the stake for it. A little more than a decade back Pope John Paul II absolved Jan Hus of any crime against the Church. During Luther’s period Erasmus had pulled together the Textus Receptus, which he compiled from the earliest Greek manuscripts (the original language of the New Testament) that he could find. A man named William Tyndale translated the New Testament from Greek to English. He was also burned at the stake. The earliest and most reliable copies of the Bible that have been translated into the vernacular really come from the Greek sources and not the Latin, which arrived centuries later. The oldest copy of the New Testament is said to be Sinaiticus, which is believed to have been commisioned during the reign of Constantine who we know commision several copies of codices. We do have large portions of the Greek New Testament that are earlier than this but they are incomplete works, however they are all used in the present vernacular translations that we have today. At the Council of Trent the canonization of Scripture finally was adopted with the proclamation,

“Henceforth the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament, protocanonical and deuterocanonical alike, in their entirety and with all their parts, comprise the canon and are held to be of equal authority,” And so with this the 5th century Latin Vulgate then became the authoritative edition of the Bible.

This, however, has nothing to do with my statement, which was that both the churches in the East as well as the West had already accepted the Hebrew Bible (some the Septuagint) and the New Testament works as “God breathed”. This is attested to by the reliable witness of our early church fathers, of whom we base our Christian heritage and earliest traditions. They also attested they had received them directly from the apostles themselves (see my former post on this forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5381004#post5381004). To say that these Scriptures were not from the Holy Spirit is to counter their witness as well as the apostles including Saint Peter himself. Furthermore to say that the Old Testament - the Hebrew Scriptures, which Jesus quoted and related to all that they spoke of Him - was not God Breathed until 1545 is just nonsense. This should not be a point of contention for us but a simple matter of telling the truth. Quite frankly I’m shocked that this is not well known on this forum. If there are points anyone has on saying this is incorrect I’d like to hear them as this should be very easy to clear up.
May God Bless, Ercomai Kyrios

 

[superdave69]

Part 2 on Baptism
Early Church Fathers
The Letter of Barnabas [70-90 AD] Epistle of Barnabas
“Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls” (Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 [A.D. 74]).Second Epistle
"For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey his commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7–9 [A.D. 150]).
Recognitions (Book VI)
“But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).Read More
Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] Epistle to Polycarp
“Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply” (Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]).
Hermas [60-120 AD] The Shepherd of Hermas (Book II, Commandment 4)
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).Justin Martyr [100-165 AD] First Apology
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD] Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Theophilus of Antioch [150-200 AD] To Autolycus (Book II)
“Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration-all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).
Clement of Alexandria [150-215 AD] The Paedagogus (Book I)
“When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191]).
Hippolytus [170-236 AD] Discourse on the Holy Theophany
“The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
Hippolytus [170-236 AD] Refutation of All Heresies (Book VIII)
“And the bishop shall lay his hand upon them [the newly baptized], invoking and saying: ‘O Lord God, who did count these worthy of deserving the forgiveness of sins by the laver of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit and send upon them thy grace [in confirmation], that they may serve you according to your will” (The Apostolic Tradition 22:1 [A.D. 215]).