St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Christ told His Apostles that when they hear you, they hear Me and when they hear Me, they hear Him Who Sent Me! To recognize the Church with the office of Peter at His head and Christ in the world to teach us DOGMA (the teachings of the Church) is to be in union with Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit. bobmck
It’s the underlying cause of the disagreement with all the issues you’ve mentioned: an ignorance of the truth and a false belief in equating emotion with belief. When you stop seeking the truth, you become rooted in whatever beliefs you currently have, and they’ve been teaching themselves incorrect ideas since the 1500’s, and are either unable to search for or see no need to search for the truth.j) Some other doctrine or factor?
Curiously,
Mick
I guess that’s a possibility.SSTeacher;5150912:
It’s the underlying cause of the disagreement with all the issues you’ve mentioned: an ignorance of the truth and a false belief in equating emotion with belief.j) Some other doctrine or factor?
Curiously,
Mick
I assume you are here attributing the incorrect ideas to non–Catholic western Christians who in turn presuppose that the Catholic Church has been teaching incorrect ideas. Both Catholics and non–Catholic western Christians declare that they have the truth based upon their different presuppositions. How is it possible for an objective seeker of truth to know who (if anybody) has the correct presuppositions?
They can just as easily say the same thing about your motives.
Evangelicals might reasonably suggest that it is the Catholics who don’t think since Catholics just do as they’re told by the Magisterium. How much thought is involved in that exercise?
By which ideas can be found in literature, sermons, hymns, plays, poetry, and art going back to the time of Christ, and which ones have a rather later start.
Sounds almost infallible.SSTeacher;5460265:
By which ideas can be found in literature, sermons, hymns, plays, poetry, and art going back to the time of Christ, and which ones have a rather later start.
Wow Brother you are surely a deep thinker and I apreciate that and respect you greatly for it!! The Trinity is wonderful, 3 Distinct Persons yet 1 God, for many this is hard to understand and truly our finite minds have to wrestle with the concept and maybe at the end of the day, just accept this wonderful Truth.I just wanted to respond to a couple of your points, Roy5. Howdy, by the way.
Now as to the Trinity being the creator, sustainer, messenger and spirit of life, or something close to that…What an amazingly Hindu-New Agey idea. Of course, these might be said to be things that the Trinity does, but the whole point of Christ’s message is that the Trinity is not a what (as in, creator, sustainer) but a Who. A family consisting of Father, Son and the Love between the Two, giving us the Three Divine Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity. And this very Holy Family is precisely the Family of which we are invited to become members by adoption. By entering into covenant with God, we become children in His Family. Through the sacraments we actually enter into covenant with God. He’s not some silly concept to be dispensed with. He’s our God and Father to be loved and communed with.
- As for not being interested in the Trinity. I read this yesterday but I didn’t even try to respond to it then. I was speechless. Not interested in the Trinity? Not interested? The Trinity Who Christ revealed? Hmm…Christ seemed to think it was important enough to mention, so that seems to be a hint that it’s important enough to ponder, don’t you think?
So…not being interested in the Trinity…completely boggles my mind. The Most Blessed and Holy Trinity is beautiful, mysterious, stunning, exciting, and I haven’t even scratched the surface about this here. Or in my personal reflections either. I look forward to spending eternity in the presence of the Trinity but I don’t have to wait until then. The Trinity lives in my soul already and I give thanks to God for this precious gift.
But as to the charge of authoritarianism, this is surely unjustified. That the Church has authority, I accept. That this makes her authoritarian, I do not accept. The implication is that she pretends to authority that she has no right to claim. But her authority she received from her Lord and this is in the text of the Bible which all Christians profess to accept. If she were merely throwing her weight around, willy nilly, then she could be rightly called authoritarian. But she is certainly not merely throwing her weight around when she speaks the truth in the name of that Truth Who founded her and commissioned her to speak that same truth throughout the world.
- As far as a “set” way of interpreting creation…And calling the Catholic Church “authoritarian”… Our understanding of scripture and revelation has certainly not remained as it was in the beginning. We have grown and our understanding has grown too, as would be expected. The more we understand, the more the Holy Spirit can teach us and the more He teaches us, the more we can understand.
Christ Himself insitituted the Church, her ministerial priesthood, her sacraments, and told His apostles to go make disciples of all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that He had commanded them. And that is what she does in every place and in every time: she speaks the truth that she has received, whether people are interested or not, whether they are receptive or not. She speaks and she teaches. Always has. Always will. And the discovery of Christ and His Church is the most interesting and exciting thing that has ever happened to me. Thirteen years and I’m more in love now than I was then with both of them.
This bring to mind a poem I(?) wrote some years ago that no one seems to be interested in. So please bear with me.Wow Brother you are surely a deep thinker and I apreciate that and respect you greatly for it!! The Trinity is wonderful, 3 Distinct Persons yet 1 God, for many this is hard to understand and truly our finite minds have to wrestle with the concept and maybe at the end of the day, just accept this wonderful Truth.
That such a powerful Being, Creator of the universe should even be interested in us a speck in His universe. Yet He not only is interested in us He actually came down and became One of us! Lived as we live, the hardships, the abuse, debating with people who would not accept who He was and is! He loved them so much that He took time to debate and preach the Truth to them, as He loves us and accepts us as we are, Saving us from our sins and offering us the Gift of Eternal Life which will be given to us at His second coming, when the graves are opened and those who have died in the Lord will rise to a new life to live forever, the gift of eternal youth…Praise His Name!!
This Forum has maybe gone of track a little bit but it is nice to speak about what we agree on as well as what we debate on!! I believe many of the Roman Catholic beliefs although just to spoil the moment a bit I could never unite with the ‘one true church’ but that does not stop us working together, and agreeing on what we agree on and maybe agreeing to disagree on other things.
So, nice talking to you and ha ha and like the Christmas day truce in the first world war ha …
Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.
Happy Lord’s Day,
Here’s a video about some of those so called over emotional type evangelicals, who by the way also include priests. Aren’t we all called to evangelize or have we forgotten the command of the Lord?
Dogmas are sets of principles set down by authority as absolutely true. Christ sent the apostles to teach whatsoever He had commanded and He said, “Lo, I am with you until the end of time.” Therefore, His teaching is still being given to us by the successors of the apostles to this day. You seem to discount His teaching authority given to His Church… His teachings are dogmas and absolutely true since He is Truth Incarnate. love! bobmck
Hi bobmck, yes thanks for the poem tis good!! I apreciate all the discussions and debates on the Forum, um especially being a heretic cat amongst the pigeons…
With all due respect, which Jesus do you want? Not wanting dogma but just Jesus is like wanting the dictionary but not wanting the definitions to all those words or wanting math but not being interested in those pesky formulas and numbers. “Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life!” is dogma as is "The Father, Son and Holy Spirit!"and “Give reason for the faith that is in you!” The Bible is dogma, Tradition is dogma and the Teaching Authority of the Church, the Magisterium, is dogma. There are false teachers who teach error as dogma but that does not devalue the Truth that is dogma. Blessings to you, bobmck
OH Bob OH Bob…such a mouthful< ‘Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life!’ ‘Father, Son and Holy Spirit!’ ‘Give reason for the faith that is in you!’ I agree with you wholeheartedly there!!! If you just left it at that it would be so wonderful rather than adding the rest! All man made ideas in dogma…sorry, but the Bible is enough on its own, the Scriptures interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit, we must look for all the Bible says on a certain subject and put it all together and that is Truth.
If His Church has been infiltrated by the father of lies then we can’t know if the same father of lies hasn’t infiltrated the Bible too!! All so, if the father of lies has infiltrated His Church then the Gates of Hell have prevailed over Christ and His Church which He said, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. The Church is the only assurance that we have, protected by the Holy Spirit, to tell us when we are in error. best to you, bobmckOH Bob OH Bob…such a mouthful< ‘Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life!’ ‘Father, Son and Holy Spirit!’ ‘Give reason for the faith that is in you!’ I agree with you wholeheartedly there!!! If you just left it at that it would be so wonderful rather than adding the rest! All man made ideas in dogma…sorry, but the Bible is enough on its own, the Scriptures interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit, we must look for all the Bible says on a certain subject and put it all together and that is Truth.
I explain so imperfectly I agree but the basics are there!! Surely there are false teachers, there always have been, the devil likes to get his oar in in every age and time…his work is now a science it is that organized!! The fragmentation of the Christian Church…nearly everything God does Satan has a counterfeit and no wonder we have problems knowing which is which…ha sorry, even having the ‘one true church’ doesn’t solve the problem because it has been infiltrated to by the father of lies too…
Praise God for His Word, the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us!! Praise God we have an Advocate with the Father, the Man Christ Jesus!! Even though we are weak and imperfect He covers us with His shed Blood when we believe and confess our sins…he accepts us when we live up to the light that we have…and that includes most on this Forum I think…
Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.
The father of lies has infiltrated the Bible or we can’t know that? Sorry Bob but you’ll have to show me where the Catholic Church ever said such a thing! I listented to EWTN Sunday night and heard a Bishop praising the Word of God and the blessing that it provides us with so I’m not sure your really behind a very Catholic position.
Logically If we have the Dead Sea Scrolls from 200BC and they don’t contradict the Scriptures that are in our hands today am I to understand from you that they cannot be trusted and that you believe they are altered? That is very sad if you truly believe that
Oh really? Just look at what happens when the interpertation of scripture is left to the individual. We have preachers who use the bible to support their position and CLAIM that they are being guided by the Holy Spirit but have completely different views on such things as:
* Infant or Adult baptism?
* Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will?
* Once Saved Always Saved?
* Can You Lose Your Salvation?
* Is there Assurance of Salvation?
* Divorce
* Abortion
* Is prophecy still given?
* Are there still Miracles?
* Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith?
* Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians?
* Premillenialism or Postmillenialism?
* Will there even be a millennium?
* Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not?
* Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?
* Are demons real?
* Is Jesus physically present in Communion?
* Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation?
* What form of Authority should exist in the Church?
* Need a Church have Bishops?
* Can Women be Pastors?
* Can homosexuals be admitted to Church?
* Does God promise Christians material prosperity?
* Should all Images be banned in Worship?
* How do you become a Christian?Dear Friend: You miss the point. I surely believe that the Scripture has not been infiltrated by the father of lies! Nor do I believe that the Church has been infiltrated by the father of lies! Which came first, the Church or the Scriptures? The Old Testament or the Synagog? If “Sola Scriptura” were true, Christ would have said so and immediately brought forth the printing press. Best to you and yours, bobmckThe father of lies has infiltrated the Bible or we can’t know that? Sorry Bob but you’ll have to show me where the Catholic Church ever said such a thing! I listented to EWTN Sunday night and heard a Bishop praising the Word of God and the blessing that it provides us with so I’m not sure your really behind a very Catholic position.
My Jesus said this: John 10:35b-36
Logically If we have the Dead Sea Scrolls from 200BC and they don’t contradict the Scriptures that are in our hands today am I to understand from you that they cannot be trusted and that you believe they are altered? That is very sad if you truly believe that
Fair comment. If one took away the Bible, the Non–Catholic Western Christians would be struggling to find an identity. That’s not to say that without the Bible the Wesleyans would be less winsome or that the Methodists would be less magnanimous or that the Charismatics would be less convivial or that the Presbyterians (USA) would be less purpose–driven or that the Baptists would be less benevolent or that the Non–Denominational Christians would be less non–committal – just that they’d no longer have any good reason for continuing to be that way. Protestantism was founded on a truncated version of the Bible and without that truncated Bible elevated to a level unimagined by any Christian prior to the Reformation the Protestant movement would lose its raison d’être.