What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[wisdomseeker]

The doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic one and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Respectfully,
Mick

what does the OC teaches concerning this matter?

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5476745:

No, it didn’t. However, the reason I asked the question was because after I declared that the doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic doctrine and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity you suggested it wasn’t so and adduced the belief of C.S. Lewis to endorse your opinion. I quite like the writings of C.S. Lewis but perhaps you’ll agree that he was his own man and believed whatever he wanted – which practice I understand is allowed within the Anglican communion as evidenced by the alternative beliefs that Bishop Spong has declared he endorses. So it seems to me that if a non–Catholic – even one as notable and brilliant as C. S. Lewis – chooses to believe in purgatory it doesn’t alter the fact that the doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic doctrine.

I enjoyed reading the posts on the thread you directed toward, though. Many thanks.

Appreciatively,
Mick

How many examples does it take to disprove a premise? One?

You supplied only the one example so I didn’t introduce any examples of my own. But I guess I ought to do so.

I suggest that the number of people who believe purgatory is a non–existent place runs into millions and that all those people are non–Catholic Christians who reject the formal teaching of the Catholic Church about purgatory. For all I know there may even be people inside the Catholic Church who reject it. Mind you, if there were and they announced it I daresay they’d be counseled and reminded that a Catholic is required to believe all the doctrines that the Catholic Church formally teaches and that one of those formal teachings is the doctrine of purgatory. I should have thought the fact that Orthodox Church does not embrace this teaching, which was promulgated by the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation, was alone a fairly compelling and possibly even conclusive argument that this doctrine is an obstacle to Christian Unity.

C.S. Lewis was not Catholic, therefore the premise that Purgatory is exclusively a Catholic doctrine is false.

The fact that C.S. Lewis was drawn to the doctrine seems to me to be beside the point. C. S. Lewis did not proclaim formal doctrine to anybody, whether they were Catholic, Orthodox, Reform or Arminian, because he did not have the authority to do so. He wrote very engaging books and there’s little or no doubt that he influenced those who read them but he did not have authority over his readers. The Catholic Church has authority over those who claim to be Catholics and it was the Catholic Church that first promulgated the doctrine of purgatory making it a tenet that Catholics had to believe – that’s the point. That’s what makes the doctrine exclusively Catholic and an obstacle to Christian Unity.

It occurs to me that we’re talking past each other. Perhaps it’s the word “exclusively” I’m using that is causing me to be misunderstood? I’m suggesting that the doctrine of purgatory is a singularly Catholic doctrine; that it is a distinctively Catholic doctrine – and that it is therefore formally exclusive i.e. that it is not the formal teaching of any other Christian body. The formal teachings of the different faith communities are necessarily mutually exclusive. It is the formal teachings that create the disunity and the obstacles to Christian Unity. One can’t believe in purgatory and not believe in purgatory at the same time, if you see what I mean.

C.S. Lewis’ belief in Purgatory didn’t come from Catholicism. That belief he got from the Bible.

I don’t follow how a prominent Anglican’s private interpretation of a verse in Scripture impacts in any significant way formal Catholic teaching that has been in place for centuries. The basic summary of belief of the Church of England is contained in the 39 Articles. Article 22 states what I must suppose is still the formal Anglican teaching about purgatory. It declares:

Of Purgatory.
The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

Check out the above quote here.

It seems, then, that C.S. Lewis by choosing to believe this “Romish Doctrine” had to have rejected formal Anglican teaching.

Purgatory is a Biblical belief.

I respectfully submit that the word “biblical” has been rendered meaningless as a result of the practice of eisegesis so commonly seen these days. Widespread eisegesis is the inevitable result of the Reformation doctrine of Sola Scriptura. However, assuming the word “biblical” does vaguely mean something in isolation it can perhaps be stated within that narrow view that the great majority of the faith communities inside Christendom yet outside of Catholicism formally reject the Catholic doctrine of purgatory and do not endorse the singularly Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:27, John 20:23, 1 Corinthians 3:15, or Revelation 21:27, which are the usual verses in Scripture employed by the Catholic Church to support belief in this singularly Catholic doctrine.

I am glad you enjoyed the thread on C.S. Lewis.

God bless you

God bless you, too. I’ll let you have the last word if you decide to post again.

Ecumenically,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5475898:

The doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic one and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Respectfully,
Mick

what does the OC teaches concerning this matter?

As I’ve been an Orthodox catechumen for less than three months I’ll defer to any Orthodox Christian who posts a reply to your question.

This is a question that has caused me no little difficulty. That difficulty presented itself when I discovered that Orthodox Christians pray for the dead. My immediate reaction was to ask for confirmation that Orthodox Christians were required to believe in purgatory, as did Catholics. I mean, for what reason would one pray for the dead but to “pray them out of purgatory”?

And this was where I came up against what I guess I might now rightly describe as the “Orthodox worldview.” Orthodoxy doesn’t always provide unequivocal answers to certain questions and this is one of those questions. I find it a little frustrating but I think I’m slowly getting the hang of what it is to be Orthodox.

My understanding of the Orthodox position (so far) is that there will be a particular judgment for each of us at death but there will also later be a general judgment. The question as to what happens in between is solved for Catholics by the doctrine of purgatory. It seems to me that the Orthodox Church rejects the Catholic notion of a purging that is necessarily painful i.e. purgatory “hurts like hell but it won’t last forever,” and I think that might be because the notion seems to portray God as indulging in “payback” or as some sort of celestial Shylock. From the Orthodox perspective there is apparently some “purifying” involved (Orthodoxy definitely rejects the Catholic notion of Indulgences) but I don’t think Orthodoxy pictures that “in–between spiritual existence” as necessarily painful. I’ve seen it suggested that the Catholic understanding is that one must be purified before approaching God whereas the Orthodox understanding is that one is purified upon approaching God. I’m not sure that has helped me much, though.

So the answer I’ve received (which I initially found to be more than a little unsatisfactory ) is that Orthodox Christians pray for the dead knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred but not having much of an idea what the effect of their prayers will be other than to ask the Lord to have mercy and then trust that He will. And I’ve accepted that answer. Orthodox Christians have this contentment with mystery, you see. I think that’s going to be the hardest lesson I’m going to have to learn.

However, there has been a benefit for me in that I can in faith now pray for both my late parents that the Lord will have mercy upon them. I couldn’t do that when I was an Evangelical. And if were a Catholic, I could still pray for them but I’d have to imagine them suffering horribly in this temporary hell that has been formally defined as doctrine by the Catholic Church and in which I’d have to believe because there would be no choice in the matter.

So I’m learning contentment in Holy Orthodoxy and I daresay I’ll eventually get to the point where it comes naturally to me. As a former Evangelical, I’m fairly conversant with the Bible and one of the Psalms soon came into my remembrance:

Be still, and know that I am God.

Indeed.

Peace,
Mick

 

[Bob_McKissick]

As I’ve been an Orthodox catechumen for less than three months I’ll defer to any Orthodox Christian who posts a reply to your question.

This is a question that has caused me no little difficulty. That difficulty presented itself when I discovered that Orthodox Christians pray for the dead. My immediate reaction was to ask for confirmation that Orthodox Christians were required to believe in purgatory, as did Catholics. I mean, for what reason would one pray for the dead but to “pray them out of purgatory”?

And this was where I came up against what I guess I might now rightly describe as the “Orthodox worldview.” Orthodoxy doesn’t always provide unequivocal answers to certain questions and this is one of those questions. I find it a little frustrating but I think I’m slowly getting the hang of what it is to be Orthodox.

My understanding of the Orthodox position (so far) is that there will be a particular judgment for each of us at death but there will also later be a general judgment. The question as to what happens in between is solved for Catholics by the doctrine of purgatory. It seems to me that the Orthodox Church rejects the Catholic notion of a purging that is necessarily painful i.e. purgatory “hurts like hell but it won’t last forever,” and I think that might be because the notion seems to portray God as indulging in “payback” or as some sort of celestial Shylock. From the Orthodox perspective there is apparently some “purifying” involved (Orthodoxy definitely rejects the Catholic notion of Indulgences) but I don’t think Orthodoxy pictures that “in–between spiritual existence” as necessarily painful. I’ve seen it suggested that the Catholic understanding is that one must be purified before approaching God whereas the Orthodox understanding is that one is purified upon approaching God. I’m not sure that has helped me much, though.

So the answer I’ve received (which I initially found to be more than a little unsatisfactory ) is that Orthodox Christians pray for the dead knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred but not having much of an idea what the effect of their prayers will be other than to ask the Lord to have mercy and then trust that He will. And I’ve accepted that answer. Orthodox Christians have this contentment with mystery, you see. I think that’s going to be the hardest lesson I’m going to have to learn.

However, there has been a benefit for me in that I can in faith now pray for both my late parents that the Lord will have mercy upon them. I couldn’t do that when I was an Evangelical. And if were a Catholic, I could still pray for them but I’d have to imagine them suffering horribly in this temporary hell that has been formally defined as doctrine by the Catholic Church and in which I’d have to believe because there would be no choice in the matter.

So I’m learning contentment in Holy Orthodoxy and I daresay I’ll eventually get to the point where it comes naturally to me. As a former Evangelical, I’m fairly conversant with the Bible and one of the Psalms soon came into my remembrance:

Be still, and know that I am God.

Indeed.

Peace,
Mick

As I understand the Protestant position, Sola Scriptura allows the believers to search the Bible and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to repeat “What Scripture says!” It seems strange that this allowance does not extend to Catholics who are able to search the Scriptures as well if not better than their Protestant brother(sisters- for the PCs). How can a protestant say that the Catholic read on the Bible is wrong and accept the opinion of any one else who comes down the pike as to what the Bible really says. If you set a Bible on a table before a thousand believers and wait you will find that the Bible doesn’t say anything. The Bible only speaks when some one picks it up and reads it and then says what his or her opinion is. Under these circumstances your opinion is just as valid as mine, which maybe in direct opposition to yours. Christ, if He is God, surely must have foreseen this happening and made accommodation for it. That accommodation is the Teaching Authority of the Church.

As to Purgatory, Mathew: 32 - 35 states; Then the lord called him and said to him Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me. souldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant even as i had compassion on thee? And his lord being angery delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you if you forgive not every one his brother form your hearts.

It seems from this that there is a place of “torture” were unpaid debts are forced paid by the command of the Father. The blessings of God be with you. bobmck

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You supplied only the one example so I didn’t introduce any examples of my own.

How many examples do I need to prove that belief in Purgatory is not exclusively a Catholic belief? C.S. Lewis is one. As evidence by such verses as 2 Macc. 12:41–42 the Jewish people believed in Purgatory predating the birth of our Lord.

I suggest that the number of people who believe purgatory is a non–existent place runs into millions and that all those people are non–Catholic Christians who reject the formal teaching of the Catholic Church about purgatory. For all I know there may even be people inside the Catholic Church who reject it. Mind you, if there were and they announced it I daresay they’d be counseled and reminded that a Catholic is required to believe all the doctrines that the Catholic Church formally teaches and that one of those formal teachings is the doctrine of purgatory.

The Trinity is also a formal doctrine required by the faithful to believe, does this mean that it is an exclusively Catholic belief? There are non-Catholic Christians who reject what they consider to be a, “Catholic invention” much like you have determined Purgatory to be. If a Catholic did not affirm the Trinity he would be counseled and reminded that a Catholic is required top believe it.

I should have thought the fact that Orthodox Church does not embrace this teaching, which was promulgated by the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation, was alone a fairly compelling and possibly even conclusive argument that this doctrine is an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Never said it wasn’t an obstacle to a great many believers, only that it wasn’t an exclusive Catholic belief. However, in the case of C.S. Lewis, Purgatory would not have been an obstacle for unity between him and Catholicism. The authority of the Pope would have, but not Purgatory.

The fact that C.S. Lewis was drawn to the doctrine seems to me to be beside the point.

It is the point. C.S. Lewis was not Catholic yet believed in the doctrine of Purgatory. So how is Purgatory an exclusively Catholic belief where you will only find Catholics who believe it?

The Catholic Church has authority over those who claim to be Catholics and it was the Catholic Church that first promulgated the doctrine of purgatory making it a tenet that Catholics had to believe – that’s the point.

Would a Oneness Pentecostal tell me the Catholic Church did anything different with the doctrine of the Trinity? Would a Baptist tell me that this is how the belief in the Real Presence came about?

Perhaps it’s the word “exclusively” I’m using that is causing me to be misunderstood? I’m suggesting that the doctrine of purgatory is a singularly Catholic doctrine; that it is a distinctively Catholic doctrine – and that it is therefore formally exclusive i.e. that it is not the formal teaching of any other Christian body.

I can see your point here; C.S. Lewis adopted an exclusively Catholic belief in Purgatory. I would argue that his belief in it had nothing to do with Catholicism but I would certainly leave correction to that to those more knowledgeable in Lewis’ faith development.

I don’t follow how a prominent Anglican’s private interpretation of a verse in Scripture impacts in any significant way formal Catholic teaching that has been in place for centuries.

Purgatory is a formal teaching of the Catholic Church. You and I are in agreement with that. However, the Trinity is also a formal Catholic teaching. The Virgin Birth. The Resurrection. However none of these things would be argued to be exclusively Catholic, so why Purgatory?

Of Purgatory.
The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

Yes I am aware of what the Anglican articles say however, as I have learned from discussions with GKC and other Anglicans on this forum, Anglicans are not anything you can pin down. The Articles are not some sort of confession, as I have learned, binding on all Anglicans to believe (case in point C.S. Lewis). Perhaps you would be surprised to learn that there are Anglicans who affirm Transubstantiation? I was. I am sure you know what the Articles say about that?

However, assuming the word “biblical” does vaguely mean something in isolation it can perhaps be stated within that narrow view that** the great majority** of the faith communities inside Christendom yet outside of Catholicism formally reject the Catholic doctrine of purgatory

Bingo. *The great majority * but not all. Hence my reasoning for not believing it is *exclusively *a Catholic belief.

God bless you, too. I’ll let you have the last word if you decide to post again.

Thank you.

God bless you SSTeacher.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

How many examples do I need to prove that belief in Purgatory is not exclusively a Catholic belief? C.S. Lewis is one. As evidence by such verses as 2 Macc. 12:41–42 the Jewish people believed in Purgatory predating the birth of our Lord.

The Trinity is also a formal doctrine required by the faithful to believe, does this mean that it is an exclusively Catholic belief? There are non-Catholic Christians who reject what they consider to be a, “Catholic invention” much like you have determined Purgatory to be. If a Catholic did not affirm the Trinity he would be counseled and reminded that a Catholic is required top believe it.

Never said it wasn’t an obstacle to a great many believers, only that it wasn’t an exclusive Catholic belief. However, in the case of C.S. Lewis, Purgatory would not have been an obstacle for unity between him and Catholicism. The authority of the Pope would have, but not Purgatory.

It is the point. C.S. Lewis was not Catholic yet believed in the doctrine of Purgatory. So how is Purgatory an exclusively Catholic belief where you will only find Catholics who believe it?

Would a Oneness Pentecostal tell me the Catholic Church did anything different with the doctrine of the Trinity? Would a Baptist tell me that this is how the belief in the Real Presence came about?

I can see your point here; C.S. Lewis adopted an exclusively Catholic belief in Purgatory. I would argue that his belief in it had nothing to do with Catholicism but I would certainly leave correction to that to those more knowledgeable in Lewis’ faith development.

Purgatory is a formal teaching of the Catholic Church. You and I are in agreement with that. However, the Trinity is also a formal Catholic teaching. The Virgin Birth. The Resurrection. However none of these things would be argued to be exclusively Catholic, so why Purgatory?

Yes I am aware of what the Anglican articles say however, as I have learned from discussions with GKC and other Anglicans on this forum, Anglicans are not anything you can pin down. The Articles are not some sort of confession, as I have learned, binding on all Anglicans to believe (case in point C.S. Lewis). Perhaps you would be surprised to learn that there are Anglicans who affirm Transubstantiation? I was. I am sure you know what the Articles say about that?

Bingo. *The great majority * but not all. Hence my reasoning for not believing it is *exclusively *a Catholic belief.

Thank you.

God bless you SSTeacher.

Just a general observation. The Catholic is the only Church that claims to teach with the authority of Christ. The Orthodox have claimed that after the Schism no council of the Universal Church has been valid and won’t be until there is reunion of the Orthodox and Rome. This Rome rejects and has continued to have councils since. bobmck

 

[wisdomseeker]

As I’ve been an Orthodox catechumen for less than three months I’ll defer to any Orthodox Christian who posts a reply to your question.

This is a question that has caused me no little difficulty. That difficulty presented itself when I discovered that Orthodox Christians pray for the dead. My immediate reaction was to ask for confirmation that Orthodox Christians were required to believe in purgatory, as did Catholics. I mean, for what reason would one pray for the dead but to “pray them out of purgatory”?

And this was where I came up against what I guess I might now rightly describe as the “Orthodox worldview.” Orthodoxy doesn’t always provide unequivocal answers to certain questions and this is one of those questions. I find it a little frustrating but I think I’m slowly getting the hang of what it is to be Orthodox.

My understanding of the Orthodox position (so far) is that there will be a particular judgment for each of us at death but there will also later be a general judgment. The question as to what happens in between is solved for Catholics by the doctrine of purgatory. It seems to me that the Orthodox Church rejects the Catholic notion of a purging that is necessarily painful i.e. purgatory “hurts like hell but it won’t last forever,” and I think that might be because the notion seems to portray God as indulging in “payback” or as some sort of celestial Shylock. From the Orthodox perspective there is apparently some “purifying” involved (Orthodoxy definitely rejects the Catholic notion of Indulgences) but I don’t think Orthodoxy pictures that “in–between spiritual existence” as necessarily painful. I’ve seen it suggested that the Catholic understanding is that one must be purified before approaching God whereas the Orthodox understanding is that one is purified upon approaching God. I’m not sure that has helped me much, though.

So the answer I’ve received (which I initially found to be more than a little unsatisfactory ) is that Orthodox Christians pray for the dead knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred but not having much of an idea what the effect of their prayers will be other than to ask the Lord to have mercy and then trust that He will. And I’ve accepted that answer. Orthodox Christians have this contentment with mystery, you see. I think that’s going to be the hardest lesson I’m going to have to learn.

However, there has been a benefit for me in that I can in faith now pray for both my late parents that the Lord will have mercy upon them. I couldn’t do that when I was an Evangelical. And if were a Catholic, I could still pray for them but I’d have to imagine them suffering horribly in this temporary hell that has been formally defined as doctrine by the Catholic Church and in which I’d have to believe because there would be no choice in the matter.

So I’m learning contentment in Holy Orthodoxy and I daresay I’ll eventually get to the point where it comes naturally to me. As a former Evangelical, I’m fairly conversant with the Bible and one of the Psalms soon came into my remembrance:

Be still, and know that I am God.

Indeed.

Peace,
Mick

so, we both agree in praying for dead. no problem. the problem is the word purgatory.
like so many have a problem with the holy Mother being called the Mother of God.

how about Eucharistia? i assume no one have a problem with the word.

purgatory is not defined by the CC is a place of suffering in hell. at least as far as i know from the CC. but if it is a place of suffering, who can say we dont deserve it?
by the way the word purgatory doesnt solve the problem of the mystery. it is still a mystery to us. we call the place where God lives Heaven. does this means Heaven is no longer a mystery to us?

 

[SSTeacher]

God bless you SSTeacher.

God bless you, too.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[rinnie]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I thinks it authority. The biggest thing is they do not believe that the Priest have apostolic authority. Which kinda ties in to most of the above. I think the more that Protestants are studying they are comming around with the Blessed Mother.

 

[rinnie]

so, we both agree in praying for dead. no problem. the problem is the word purgatory.
like so many have a problem with the holy Mother being called the Mother of God.

how about Eucharistia? i assume no one have a problem with the word.

purgatory is not defined by the CC is a place of suffering in hell. at least as far as i know from the CC. but if it is a place of suffering, who can say we dont deserve it?
by the way the word purgatory doesnt solve the problem of the mystery. it is still a mystery to us. we call the place where God lives Heaven. does this means Heaven is no longer a mystery to us?

Prugatory is more I believe defined as the final cleasing before we can get to heaven.

 

[SSTeacher]

As I understand the Protestant position, Sola Scriptura allows the believers to search the Bible and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to repeat “What Scripture says!”

I think that’s something of a caricature.

It seems strange that this allowance does not extend to Catholics who are able to search the Scriptures as well if not better than their Protestant brother(sisters- for the PCs). How can a protestant say that the Catholic read on the Bible is wrong and accept the opinion of any one else who comes down the pike as to what the Bible really says.

Perhaps it’s because from the Non–Catholic Western Christian point of view the historical record is interpreted as showing that the Catholic Church, having been trusted with the Bible, betrayed that trust and introduced extra–biblical and false doctrines?

If you set a Bible on a table before a thousand believers and wait you will find that the Bible doesn’t say anything. The Bible only speaks when some one picks it up and reads it and then says what his or her opinion is. Under these circumstances your opinion is just as valid as mine, which maybe in direct opposition to yours.

Right. It’s a complete mess in the West so some Non–Catholic Western Christians blame the Catholic Church for it.

Christ, if He is God, surely must have foreseen this happening and made accommodation for it.

Nice delivery.

That accommodation is the Teaching Authority of the Church.

Not an unexpected conclusion.

As to Purgatory, Mathew: 32 - 35 states; Then the lord called him and said to him Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me. souldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant even as i had compassion on thee? And his lord being angery delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall by heavenly Father do to you if you forgive not every one his brother form your hearts.

It seems from this that there is a place of “torture” were unpaid debts are forced paid by the command of the Father. The blessings of God be with you. bobmck

And also with you.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Bob_McKissick]

I think that’s something of a caricature.

Perhaps it’s because from the Non–Catholic Western Christian point of view the historical record is interpreted as showing that the Catholic Church, having been trusted with the Bible, betrayed that trust and introduced extra–biblical and false doctrines?

Please give several extra-biblical and false doctrines that have been introduced. bobmck

Right. It’s a complete mess in the West so some Non–Catholic Western Christians blame the Catholic Church for it.

Nice delivery.

Not an unexpected conclusion.

And also with you.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Bob_McKissick]

I think that’s something of a caricature.

Perhaps it’s because from the Non–Catholic Western Christian point of view the historical record is interpreted as showing that the Catholic Church, having been trusted with the Bible, betrayed that trust and introduced extra–biblical and false doctrines?

Right. It’s a complete mess in the West so some Non–Catholic Western Christians blame the Catholic Church for it.

Nice delivery.

Not an unexpected conclusion.
BUT IS IT TRUE OR FALSE? bobmck

And also with you.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Bob_McKissick]

As I understand the Protestant position, Sola Scriptura allows the believers to search the Bible and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to repeat “What Scripture says!” It seems strange that this allowance does not extend to Catholics who are able to search the Scriptures as well if not better than their Protestant brother(sisters- for the PCs). How can a protestant say that the Catholic read on the Bible is wrong and accept the opinion of any one else who comes down the pike as to what the Bible really says. If you set a Bible on a table before a thousand believers and wait you will find that the Bible doesn’t say anything. The Bible only speaks when some one picks it up and reads it and then says what his or her opinion is. Under these circumstances your opinion is just as valid as mine, which maybe in direct opposition to yours. Christ, if He is God, surely must have foreseen this happening and made accommodation for it. That accommodation is the Teaching Authority of the Church.

As to Purgatory, Mathew: 32 - 35 states; Then the lord called him and said to him Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me. souldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant even as i had compassion on thee? And his lord being angery delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you if you forgive not every one his brother form your hearts.

It seems from this that there is a place of “torture” were unpaid debts are forced paid by the command of the Father. The blessings of God be with you. bobmck

May I add that Catholics don’t think of their dead loved ones suffering the cleansing of purgatory at all unless they have died with unrepented sins still on their souls that need to be cleaned up before they can approach the Throne of God. bobmck

 

[SSTeacher]

Bob McKissick;5478365:

That accommodation is the Teaching Authority of the Church.

Not an unexpected conclusion.

SSTeacher;5478817:

Not an unexpected conclusion.

BUT IS IT TRUE OR FALSE? bobmck

It’s true. The Orthodox Church has been telling the truth since 33 AD.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Bob McKissick;5478365:

As I understand the Protestant position, Sola Scriptura allows the believers to search the Bible and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to repeat “What Scripture says!” It seems strange that this allowance does not extend to Catholics who are able to search the Scriptures as well if not better than their Protestant brother(sisters- for the PCs). How can a protestant say that the Catholic read on the Bible is wrong and accept the opinion of any one else who comes down the pike as to what the Bible really says. If you set a Bible on a table before a thousand believers and wait you will find that the Bible doesn’t say anything. The Bible only speaks when some one picks it up and reads it and then says what his or her opinion is. Under these circumstances your opinion is just as valid as mine, which maybe in direct opposition to yours. Christ, if He is God, surely must have foreseen this happening and made accommodation for it. That accommodation is the Teaching Authority of the Church.

As to Purgatory, Mathew: 32 - 35 states; Then the lord called him and said to him Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me. souldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant even as i had compassion on thee? And his lord being angery delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you if you forgive not every one his brother form your hearts.

It seems from this that there is a place of “torture” were unpaid debts are forced paid by the command of the Father. The blessings of God be with you. bobmck

May I add that Catholics don’t think of their dead loved ones suffering the cleansing of purgatory at all unless they have died with unrepented sins still on their souls that need to be cleaned up before they can approach the Throne of God. bobmck

Well, then, perhaps the doctrine of purgatory isn’t such an obstacle to Christian Unity as I thought – assuming that the thinking of the Catholics to which you’re referring is commensurate with the formal teaching of the Catholic Church.

The following is my understanding of the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Please feel free to correct me if I’ve made an error. I’ve arranged my considered thoughts inside a quote box and typed them in color in order that they stand out and then if any other Catholics think my analysis is wayward they can counsel me accordingly and show me where I’ve gone wrong and in what way I’ve misunderstood formal Catholic teaching.

The following paragraphs constitute my current understanding of the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, which doctrine I consider to be an obstacle to Christian Unity.**

For Catholics salvation is an ongoing process that takes place gradually over the span of each Catholic’s life. Salvation is contingent upon the performance of the individual in that it depends upon the individual Catholic’s willingness to frequent the sacraments and upon his or her ability to avoid falling into mortal sin with the final outcome being an unknown factor in this life.

Catholicism proposes that Catholics can cooperate with God by working out their salvation in fear and trembling and by doing good they can eventually be saved. However, Catholics can forfeit their salvation by the bad that they do i.e. mortal sin and/or the good that they fail to do as outlined in Matthew 25. That gives rise to a tricky question. Exactly how good does one have to be to enter heaven and exactly how bad does one have be to deserve hell?

I daresay that’s a question Catholic youngsters and RCIA prospects have often asked.

But if I remain within the confines of this belief system and for the moment accept its assumptions I think it’s reasonable for me to suppose that most people who reach the end of their lives on earth would find when all things are considered that they aren’t good enough to go straight to heaven but neither are they bad enough to go to hell. If justice prohibits them from being directly dispatched to either heaven or hell, what’s to be done with them?

The Catholic answer to this dilemma appears to be the doctrine of purgatory. Purgatory, as I understand it, is perhaps best described as a “temporary hell.” It hurts like hell but it won’t last forever, some might say. The Catholic Church insists that hell and purgatory are entirely different but whether that‘s to do with different degrees of pain or the fact that in hell there is no hope isn’t clear to me. What I do know is that pain is a very subjective thing. It hurts. Catholics believe purgatory is a place where people are purged – that is, they are punished/made clean for the bad things that they did while they lived on earth. Purgatory is a very unpleasant place to be because it’s certain that the purging involves at least some** degree of pain. That’s why Catholics have developed their doctrine of Indulgences. When people in purgatory are completely purged they can progress into heaven.

My conclusion is that the best an ordinary sinful Catholic can hope for after death – assuming he or she doesn’t get martyred, which seems to me to be the only route by which a sane adult Catholic may gain direct entry into heaven at the point of his or her death – is to be sent away by God to suffer for an indeterminate but presumably lengthy time in a temporary hell. The whole thing seems to me to be a fairly depressing notion and doesn’t sound much like Good News.

I look forward to reading much corrective wisdom.

Expectantly,
Mick

 

[mpjw2]

Well, the notion that one could (and that it is a good and noble thing to) pray for those who have gone before us is attested to in Maccabees. And the teaching on the final purification, which is what is meant by purgation, comes from Saint Paul: a man’s works will be tried as by fire, referring to the way metal (such as gold) is purified by fire. And also St. John and St. Peter (see below).

Here are some Scriptural verses.

Now it’s clear that this fire is not going to be experienced in Hell, because by the time one gets there, he’s already gone through the Judgment. So where is this fire experienced? Read the verses before and after this one and tell me that Peter and Paul are talking about this life. I don’t think so. And the Church never thought so either. The Church has always taught that this is experienced after death by the soul that is not going to be sent to Hell but to Heaven. It’s like having someone wash your feet or even your whole body off before entering someone’s home or palace. You wouldn’t walk in there with mud all over you.

This is why it helps so much, and really is necessary, to read the Bible with the Church. Remember the Ethiopian in the chariot, reading Isaiah? Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading. And his answer: “How can I, sir, unless someone guides me?” Act 8:30 - Act 8:31 Philp, by the way, was an ordained deacon. And after he instructed the man, the man requested baptism and Philip baptized him. That is not an insignificant story thrown in to fill up space on a scroll.

hi disciple96

i am glad you cited 1Cor 3:13 I agree with you 100 % that the fire is not experienced in this life.

the obstacle in our beliefs relate to the verses surrounding this verse pertaining to our works building on God’s foundation,

the fire is God’s refining fire, and in heaven we will be rewarded for all our works which built on His foundation.

any work we done that did not build on His foundation, will not be rewarded

for example, do you believe one would be rewarded by God because

he spent his life collecting baseball cards

or

he spent his life sharing God’s love and Jesus to those who may not know him.

this is why i believe there is no purgatory.

the split second after we die in this life we will be awaken to our eternal destination…

hell, with no hope of escaping

or

heaven and being rewarded for all the works we did to build on God’s foundation

Another point you made … it good to read the bible.

absolutely

but here lies another difference.
when i was at the funeral mass the other day, i looked around the church and could not find 1 bible.

our church has a supply of bibles in every pew.

I was glad to hear that the family asked the priest to mention that a bible was located in Bob’s car
i am curious, how often does a priest mention the word “bible” while saying a mass??

on a scale of 1 - 10 … 10 being the highest

how high do you rank to bible as a important “tool” to use for your spiritual growth?

thank you and God bless

 

[mpjw2]

hi romancatholic, i responded to you in #862… thoughts are welcomed

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

hi romancatholic, i responded to you in #862… thoughts are welcomed

I didn’t have any thoughts on it:

mpjw:

i agree wih you

I usually shoot for understanding because it is much easier to get than agreement. However in the off chance that I get agreement with someone, like here, I try to keep quiet so I don’t mess it up.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

but here lies another difference.
when i was at the funeral mass the other day, i looked around the church and could not find 1 bible.

Our Scripture readings are found in our Missals. This is interesting though. If you were to look around the gathering of the Church in the Book of Acts how many complete Bibles would you have found… .

What should I conclude about the Christians written about in the Book of Acts by what you are trying to imply here?

our church has a supply of bibles in every pew.

There is a Missal for every Catholic during Mass.

i am curious, how often does a priest mention the word “bible” while saying a mass??

on a scale of 1 - 10 … 10 being the highest

Mention it ? Don’t know It is read from every Mass. Not just one verse either.

how high do you rank to bible as a important “tool” to use for your spiritual growth?

I consider in profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable* for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness… 2 Tim 3:16

God bless