What do you think of the Neocatechumenal Way?

[Walking_Home]

In my old seminaryI use to go to class with some Neo-cats (our short form for them) and they seemed to be pretty good guys. However you could def tell by their actions they were neocats, usually by the way the carried themselves in conversations. So while I knew a few personally, and the few that I knew were pretty good guys, there were others who seemed a little strange to me. This could just be a difference in personality, or could just be a different spirituality. I really think its a case by case basis with neocats, the same with anyother seminarian.

---

I know of many nice people who will go out of their way to help a person in need. These nice people include many protestants. Being nice and helping others does not necessarily mean a person is Catholic. It will do the Church no good when a movement that was to help build up the Church --is instead actually using the Church to build up Kiko Arguello’s religion. The objective of all those men who end up in the Redemptoris Mater Neocatechumenal seminaries or even our own seminaries—is to facilitate and expand the Neocatechumenal religion ----NOT the Catholic Faith.

 

[Melo]

Does it really matter? you act like its a disease… if you dont want to go to it then dont… its not like they are going to force you in it. and you guys are soooooooooooooooo for the church then any church is valid weither it have knights of columbus, rcia, neocatechumenal way, guadalupanas… doesnt matter the church is the church. so why be so threaten by one group. your main concern should be your faith not what group is there.

la paz

Yes, it matters to me which is why I asked the question. My post was very civil so there was really no need for you to take the offensive. I didn’t make a single negative comment about ‘the way’. I simply said it wasn’t something that I want to be involved in or associated with.

 

[Melo]

This could very well mean that the pastor of that parish has allowed an NCW community to hold its Eucharist and Liturgy of the Word services on the parish property. He is probably trying to shed a little light on their workings. However, because of the nature of the NCW, you would NOT be able to fully participate in all of the activities until you go through the paces yourself.

It might be more accurate to say that the NCW is borrowing space from the parish. I would call that parish office and ask them how involved the NCW really is in the parish. If there’s an overly enthusiastic response, keep looking. My experience says that in a parish where they’re tolerated, the office staff seems a bit standoffish when describing them.

We have a parish here locally that hosts a few communities, but the pastor there has the presence of mind to put them under obedience. That is to say that he requires each member to participate in parish ministries and to attend Sunday Mass every week. He says that when he encountered resistance, he told them that they should feel glad to be in God’s presence so much more than everyone else. I have always admired this pastor’s strategy!

Thank you for the good advice. I will contact the Church and ask more questions.

 

[nightengale]

Verdigirl. Thanks for all your information and prayers. I really feel that prayer is the only way to sort this out. You posted a list a while ago of various items (numbered) of catechesis items. I have looked through all of the emails but can’t seem to find it. Could you send it again please.

 

[verdigirl]

Verdigirl. Thanks for all your information and prayers. I really feel that prayer is the only way to sort this out. You posted a list a while ago of various items (numbered) of catechesis items. I have looked through all of the emails but can’t seem to find it. Could you send it again please.

Yes! I might have to break this up between a couple of posts, but here they are (emphases mine):

Source: Fr. Enrico Zoffoli, Passionist Priest, geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6919/E_NCGEN.htm

1 - Sin: man cannot avoid committing it, in the same way as he can neither accomplish good nor acquire merits for himself;

• conversion is possible only as recognition, by everyone, of their own moral poverty, not as a determined wish to correct one’s faults which sanctity tends to realise; (this negates the concept of Grace)
• sin cannot offend God, and man does not incur the duty to expiate it by satisfying the requirements of his justice. (this negates the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation)

2 - Redemption: Jesus has not brought this about by liberating man from his faults and reconciling him with God; (then why the Passion, Death and Resurrection?)

• the passion and death of Christ has not been a true sacrifice offered to the Father in order to remedy sin and to redeem man;
• Jesus saved the world by virtue of his Resurrection: in order to enjoy the fruits of his work it is enough to confess to be sinners and to believe in the power of the risen Christ. (what about faith and good works?)

3 - The Church was not founded by Christ as his only Sheepfold: it is also possible to save oneself by following other religions;

• the Church is not a juridical and hierarchical society, but a spiritual, charismatic one; (this seems to negate the Papacy and Bishops)
• in it there is not found a priesthood derived from the sacrament of the Order - as it is sufficient to have the Baptism which, incorporating all the believers in Christ, makes them participants of his priestly dignity. (this negates the Sacrament of Holy Orders)

4 - The Mass is not a “sacrifice”: the Church, at the altar, does not offer to God any Victim;

• in place of the altar, there is nothing but the table, which in the Eucharist allows a festive party to be celebrated among brothers united by the same faith in the Resurrection;
• the consecrated bread and wine **are only the symbol **of the presence of the risen Christ which unites the fellow-guests by communicating their own spirit, thus making them participants in his triumph over death; (Lutheranism at its best)
• the Mass, thus conceived, is not celebrated by the priest, but by the Assembly, from which “springs the Eucharist”. (this would mean that there is never a consecration)

5 - Eucharistic worship does not have any meaning, it negates the true, real and substantial presence of Christ under the sacramental species. Acts of faith such as genuflections before the Tabernacle, frequent Communions, hours of adoration, benedictions, processions, congresses, etc are not therefore justified. (negating so many of our traditional expressions of faith)

6 - The Confession is reduced to the sacrament of the Baptism:

their distinction does not go back to the primitive Church:

• The Church “gestates and leads to the conversion”. "The important thing is not the absolution" of the priest, because the value of the confession is essentially its community and ecclesial nature; (no seal of confession here!)
• in the “passages” and in the “scrutinies” the acknowledgement of one’s transgressions, including the serious ones, is public, as can still be the case during the “redditio”.

(continued)

 

[verdigirl]

(continued…)

7 - The Christian life, as a voluntary effort of self-discipline, and therefore an exercise and progress in virtue, is an illusion;

• everyone remains intrinsically a sinner, incapable of obtaining true justice as a perfection of the love of God and of one’s fellow creatures;
• on the other hand, Jesus has not been presented to anyone as a “model” to be imitated;
• He has commanded that we should actually hate our parents, brothers, relatives etc, not just, if necessary, to be prepared to prefer Him to them; (a twisting of our teaching of Luke 14:25)
• in order to follow Christ, we need to sell our own goods; but, once this renunciation has been accomplished, it is permissible to acquire others and to enjoy all the pleasures of life. “Poverty” - as understood by St Francis - is inspireed by the “natural religion”, and was also practised by the pagans: it is not a Christian virtue;
• Jesus, having suffered for us, has made **our sufferings **superfluous, therefore the austerities of the ascetics, the slow martyrdom of the Saints and the religious life itself, involving the effective practice of the evangelical counsels, are not justifiable;
• eternal salvation is offered freely to all by the mercy of God, who forgives everything. Hell should not exist, nor should one speak of Purgatory, of prayers and of indulgences for the dead.

8 - The history of the true Church founded by Christ comes to an end with the Pax Constantinia and does not resume its course until the 20th century with the Second Vatican Council, having remained frozen for about 1,600 years …;

• in this long interval, the exercise of the triple power of the hierarchical Church (teaching, sanctification, guidance) would have been improper, illegitimate …; and in particular the Council of Trent would be responsible for the paralysis of the Church, determined to fix formulae of faith, liturgical rites, disciplinary rules …, (this suggests the TLM is wrong)
• the interpretation of the Word of God is not reserved for the Hierarchy, it is possible for all believers: “the Bible is explained by itself”. This freedom of examination in the exegesis excludes the ecclesiastical Teaching, the tradition of the Elders and the doctrine of the theologies. (setting up a free-for-all in scripture interpretation that gives no weight to the teachings of the Bishops)

I feel that we should study this as a group. Anyone else care to pick these apart?

 

[verdigirl]

Here’s a great article from a former insider’s point of view:

antyk.org.pl/wiara/neokatechumenat/inside.htm

 

[Gearoidin]

With the large neocat community at my parish I’m always interested to read more about the workings of this group. Thank you for posting this. It was very interesting but disturbing.
Gearoidin

Here’s a great article from a former insider’s point of view:

antyk.org.pl/wiara/neokatechumenat/inside.htm

 

[verdigirl]

With the large neocat community at my parish I’m always interested to read more about the workings of this group. Thank you for posting this. It was very interesting but disturbing.
Gearoidin

Perhaps you would consider letting your pastor read it too.

You’re right; it’s disturbing.

 

[Gearoidin]

Perhaps you would consider letting your pastor read it too.

You’re right; it’s disturbing.

He’s a member of the neocat community and doesn’t really speak any English.

Gearoidin

 

[verdigirl]

He’s a member of the neocat community and doesn’t really speak any English.

Gearoidin

Sometimes the priests involved aren’t necessarily “members.” Sometimes they just get roped into celebrating the Mass with that community.

Either way, I’ll pray for you and your community.

 

[jhelene]

I had posted earlier in this thread that I was in the NCW for several years. To answer those who said that the NCW never would encourage spouses to leave if one isnt on board with the NCW is wrong. I have witnessed it first hand. I was there when a catechist told a member of my community to tell her husband that she has a “new family now and she didnt need him anymore.”
I have also witnessed and experienced first hand the stress that occurs when one spouse is a member and the other isnt. And have it come down to a “them or me” stance.
As for the scrutinies it can be a heartwrenching experience. I have seen participants visibly shake with fear, uncontrollable crying, and one person close to passing out. What those who have not experienced it have to realize that the innermost personal feelings, and personal experiences are expressed during a scrutiny. Infidelity, drug or alcohol abuse, sexual experiences of the teenage community members can come up. As well as feelings of one spouse to another, and their shortcomings. This is all discussed in front of a panel of lay catechists and a NCW priest. Who then give their opinion on how the person being scrutinized can change, as well as the path they the (catechists) think they will go down if they dont change. They told one teenager that she would be a whore or prostitute is she didnt follow the NCW. Most of what is discussed is what should be only talked about in a confession.
I have also seen how the NCW come and take over a parish. In my old parish it began very slowly. Over many years. Then when our pastor was transferred we got a new one. This new one was from the Redemptorist Mater order. Then the NCW literally took over. Parish members who were not NCW were alienated. Being told that the volunteer services were not longer needed and they were replaced by NCW members. Those nonNCW parish members who continued to attend church were given only a token responsibility. Lectures/ushers were replaced with NCW members, the music at regular Masses also changed slowly from
traditional to the music of Kiko and Carmen. With the organist for many years replaced with the guitar, drum, tamboreen, and flute players of the NCW. The result was slowly over the last 10 years membership of non NCW has dwindled to little more than a handful. Most have left the parish and gone to a differnt parish a couple of miles away. The non NCW have dwindled down, and are comprised of the elderly who cannot get to mass at the other parish. Very little has been down to include non NCW members.I am not saying that this is what has gone on at every parish that the NCW has come to just mine personal experience.

 

[verdigirl]

…I am not saying that this is what has gone on at every parish that the NCW has come to just mine personal experience.

This is horrible, and I’m so sorry you had to experience that. This is an all-too common theme from former members of this movement. I am thankful that you were able to extricate yourself, and I pray for peace and restored relationships.

Did anyone ever inform the Bishop about what was going on?

 

[nightengale]

What jhelene says I have experienced throughout the 30 years. When I see it spelled out like that I realize that it must have been a form of brainwashing. My husband always used to say that but I always defended them., Maybe I have become wise - but I am sure it was Our Lady’s hand guiding me out!! I am so blessed to be out of it - in spite of all the warnings that I was following the devil by leaving. The other thing that always bugged me was having to use Kiko’s cross and icons only. They used to remove the large crucifix from the wall and replace it with Kiko’s virgin and child. No one could tell me why we did that, I was told that we had to be obedient and not be a rebel as it was again listening to the devil.

Someone in one of the replies said that they were sorry that I had left because it was so important to be with a community and not be ‘all alone.’ I would like to say to this ‘brainwashed’ person that I am not alone. I belong to the Parish and feel very much loved and needed within that community. I can now go to Mass every day and not feel guilty if I do that instead of saying my morning prayers from the psalter. We were told that it was more important to do that than to go to Mass every day. There are so many things that I could go on forever but I am afraid of boring you all.

We have written to the Bishop but they all seem to be under a ‘spell’ of some sort. We can understand why, as the neocats are very useful beings in the Parish. The emphasis is to be ‘christian’. In fact, I have never heard Kiko use the term ‘catholic’ but always ‘christian.’

May God bless them all and open their eyes. Wouldn’t it be amazing if they would catch on to what is happening and sort Kiko and Carmen out. The neocats could then be such a beautiful charism to the church - butnot possible under their present guise of what is church teaching. The only thing they seem to follow the church in is their policy of being open to life.

We have also written to the Vatican and got an amazing reply. Unfortunately I cannot disclose the contents yet. I hope they do not get hoodwinked again and really investigate what is happening.

What I must end with is that I do not wish this to be disbanded but to be corrected. Many people have found their ‘christian’ faith in this way and I would hate them to abandon it all if this is closed down. It is such a social and caring way and many people would be totally lost and devastated if it ended. They would not know what to do with themselves.

I am not sure if I should post this but here goes!!

 

[verdigirl]

We have written to the Bishop but they all seem to be under a ‘spell’ of some sort. We can understand why, as the neocats are very useful beings in the Parish. The emphasis is to be ‘christian’. In fact, I have never heard Kiko use the term ‘catholic’ but always ‘christian.’

I feel the same way about my own Bishop. I think the issue for many of them is that there isn’t a definitive answer from Rome yet, so they are a little afraid to go against a movement that is supplying priests. What kind of priests remains to be seen, but jhelena has already shown us a possibility.

We have also written to the Vatican and got an amazing reply. Unfortunately I cannot disclose the contents yet. I hope they do not get hoodwinked again and really investigate what is happening.

Wow…this sounds so interesting. I am praying hard! Thank you for writing to them. You are courageous!

What I must end with is that I do not wish this to be disbanded but to be corrected. Many people have found their ‘christian’ faith in this way and I would hate them to abandon it all if this is closed down. It is such a social and caring way and many people would be totally lost and devastated if it ended. They would not know what to do with themselves.

I have to say that I agree with you there. There are too many theological errors that need to be corrected, as well as their legendary superiority complex that will make it hard for them to integrate into a regular parish community. I pray for Kiko and Carmen’s conversion and that they are able to lead these people back into the fold. I just don’t know. They just seem like a couple of stubborn and stiff-necked people. For the good of the Church, I hope they are able to accept instruction with humility and obedience.

 

[jhelene]

Did anyone ever inform the Bishop about what was going on?

Not unlike a few other posters have mentioned the Bishops and the Cardinal in my area LOVE the NCW. I doubt that they would do anything if they were informed directly. What the Bishops see is the numbers that the NCW can produce. I mean the numbers of people at neocat masses that are held in the main church a couple of times a year, in addition to the number of neocats that attended World Youth Day in Germany. The Church hierarchy see it as the "new evangelization of the church. The spout off the large numbers of young adults and teens that attend neocat masses and the large number of young men entering the seminary. I believe they really dont see it for what it is, and if they do they do not want to do anything about it. More important is that NCW is also making it’s way into the hierarchy of the local archdiocese, several key positions are now held by higher up members of the NCW. These higher up members are always invited to attend private functions with the cardinal, and have access that the average member doesnt get. Therefore the Bishops and Cardinal only know what they are told about the NCW through it’s own members. I know that this is not only true in my area, but several other Archdiocese around the USA.
As for Kiko and Carmen, they are true egomaniacs. I have heard them speak on a couple of occasions in person, Kiko although does speak of spirituality, and his love of God loves to quote himself, Carmen on the other had is just “way out there”. On the 2 occasions I have heard her speak she never really made any sense. Usually at the end of their speaking Kiko and Carmen usually end up competing for more time at the microphone.
Everything that they say becomes law. There isnt any room to question anything. Because no answers are ever given. In Cologne Germany there was a outdoor meeting of the NCW. There were thousands and thousands in attendance. The crowd hung on every word that they said. Like some sort of misplaced hero worship. There wasnt humility or humbleness about either one of them.
The egomania also comes into play with the choices of music, only music written by them can be used, only Icons, and statues, challis’, plates, designed and approved by Kiko can be used at mass.
Concerning Money which nobody has dicussed here yet. After a given amount of time members are required to give 10% of their income. This is done in each specific community. This money collected is not just to support the church, but to support the missionary families in a community, with rent, food, clothing. It also used to defer the expenses.for catechists to go to see Kiko, or to Guiseppe (the #1 man in the USA). This money is collected in a large bag that is passed around the room. One sticks there hand with their money it and then passes it on. Nobody really knows what the others are giving. If money is being collected for a specific amount, it is counted after one round, if there isnt enough the bag will get passed around again until enough money is collected, the wealthier of the community more often than not. put the in the difference between what was collected and what is needed. No books were ever kept that I am aware of. Not published either is the amount of money Kiko and Carmen receive from the NCW.

 

[verdigirl]

No books were ever kept that I am aware of. Not published either is the amount of money Kiko and Carmen receive from the NCW.

This issue alone should give you a reason to approach the Cardinal with a group. The pastors and other Church heirarchy are bound by Canon Law to oversee the temporal assets of the church, and I don’t know of any pastor that requires the NCW to report to the finance council.

I don’t think you should be afraid to approach the heirarchy in your diocese, just because you see cronyism, but of course, that is your decision. I will support you in any way I can from here! If you start talking about money with them, I bet they will listen. In fact, if you first direct this issue with the Archdiocesan head of Parish Finance, that will help you gauge how far to go.

In my area, it appears that the Archbishop is in favor of the NCW, because he goes to some of their ceremonies, like when a new community receives the scripture, and also because we’re one of the few places that has a Neocat seminary. He’s also pretty conservative, and on the surface, Neocats seem conservative as well. You know better than I how much time, effort and money is used to flatter and favor pastors and other clergy. However, when the Neocats were trying to circumvent the Archdiocesan rule that requires everyone who has contact with children to attend a child protection class, I reported it to the layperson in charge of such matters. The Archbishop was so alarmed that he personally called every catechist and responsible and told them that he expected everyone in the communities to register and attend the class immediately.

You should have seen the mass registrations within 48 hours!

But this is a very scary thing to do. I paid the price, because the Neocats figured out what happened and managed to get the pastor of my parish to fire me from my job as the Business Manager. And so it goes. But I was willing to put myself on the line.

Generally speaking, wherever there is some sort of spiritual group that exists in the parish, if the parish is being managed well, all fundraising is funnelled through the business office. The pastor has to be a signer on the group’s bank account. In this way oversight is provided. However, the Neocats have this way of avoiding this process. They may argue that the money is collected to help the missionary families, but I’m not so sure about that. There has to be some support of the catechist and/or community responsible going on.

I would be interested in learning more about the financial dealings of the Neocats.

 

[Gearoidin]

I have also seen how the NCW come and take over a parish. In my old parish it began very slowly. Over many years. Then when our pastor was transferred we got a new one. This new one was from the Redemptorist Mater order. Then the NCW literally took over. Parish members who were not NCW were alienated. Being told that the volunteer services were not longer needed and they were replaced by NCW members. Those nonNCW parish members who continued to attend church were given only a token responsibility. Lectures/ushers were replaced with NCW members, the music at regular Masses also changed slowly from
traditional to the music of Kiko and Carmen. With the organist for many years replaced with the guitar, drum, tamboreen, and flute players of the NCW.

You have described exactly what is happening in my parish at the moment. All “jobs” have been taken over by members of the neocat movement. Sometimes this is even taken to the extreme, for example, at the “International Mass” last year where the readings are usually read in Spanish or Italian and English with the Gospel in Japanese. Last year the readings were in Spanish and English but the English reading was read by an Italian lady who doesn’t speak English! We have a large number of people from the Philipinnes, along with a couple of Americans, Canadians and me in the parish who do speak English but are not members of the neocat community like the Italian lady. Quite a few people were talking about this after the Mass.
The music hasn’t change at the regular Masses yet mostly becasue of the number of older people who want the traditional hymns but it has changed at the Children’s Mass and Youth Mass.

Gearoidin

 

[jhelene]

Verdigirl,
I recently spoke to a nonNCW member who still attends church there, who is also one of the very few members that attend the monthly church meetings. They said to me that there is a church budget that is submitted to the Archdiocese. Currently the church is doing okay financially. I also found out that the church does file all the required financial paperwork required by the Archdiocese. The NCW also does contribute some money directly to the church to help with expenses such as lights, heat, and the generally running of the church out of what is collected. I think that is what goes on in churches with large NCW populations. Monetary contributions are given to the church and reported as required. What nobody really knows is the amount of money is collected. Well nobody except the catechists and those in the original community. What is told to the members of the NCW is how much is needed to be collected. As for the amount each person of family gives is also a secret. You see money is seen as an Idol and a burden so your supposed to give. In the NCW they use the phrase “dont let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.” Which is why a large bag is passed around for collections. Your not supposed to tell what you have given. I know that there in any given community of NCW there are those members who give above and beyond what others give, and those who do not give expect the others to make up the difference. And there are those who are doing very well financially that are called upon for extra donations. Usually not money, but for goods and services. It is usually put as the church needs the following items…, can you help.

 

[verdigirl]

Verdigirl,
I recently spoke to a nonNCW member who still attends church there, who is also one of the very few members that attend the monthly church meetings. They said to me that there is a church budget that is submitted to the Archdiocese. Currently the church is doing okay financially. I also found out that the church does file all the required financial paperwork required by the Archdiocese. The NCW also does contribute some money directly to the church to help with expenses such as lights, heat, and the generally running of the church out of what is collected. I think that is what goes on in churches with large NCW populations. Monetary contributions are given to the church and reported as required. What nobody really knows is the amount of money is collected. Well nobody except the catechists and those in the original community. What is told to the members of the NCW is how much is needed to be collected. As for the amount each person of family gives is also a secret. You see money is seen as an Idol and a burden so your supposed to give. In the NCW they use the phrase “dont let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.” Which is why a large bag is passed around for collections. Your not supposed to tell what you have given. I know that there in any given community of NCW there are those members who give above and beyond what others give, and those who do not give expect the others to make up the difference. And there are those who are doing very well financially that are called upon for extra donations. Usually not money, but for goods and services. It is usually put as the church needs the following items…, can you help.

Yes. let me mull this over and get back to you, ok?