What do you think scripture says about Mary?

[Lisa4Catholics]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Malachi,The answer only comes after Adam and Eve have children. God Bless

Come Home Spoken:crying:

 

[MarkAnthonyCozy]

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."Rev 12:10

Did Enoch accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior before or after he “walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” Gn 5:24

Where were Moses and Elijah before they appeared with Jesus as he was transfigured before Peter, James, and John? Wasn’t Moses buried “in a valley in the land of Moab?” Yet here he is in the flesh.

How could Mary’s soul “magnify the LORD” and Mary “rejoice in God her Saviour” before her Savior sacrificed himself for us on the cross unless her soul was already pure and she knew that she was already saved?

Who fullfilled the prophesy and bore the Light within her?

“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightenings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” Rev 11:19-12:1

“Honor thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with a promise)” Eph 6:2

If Jesus Christ is our brother then his Father is our Father and his Mother is our Mother. Are not we sons and daughters through adoption?

 

[Pax]

YuRa,

Please go back and read all of my posts. Your response would indicate that you have not absorbed anything. I have pointed out to you that “everything” is by the grace of God. None of it is of ourselves. After we have faith which is a gift of God, all of our good works are also by grace. They are the work of the Father’s hands in our heart, minds, souls, and bodies. Your position depends on “imputed” righteousness only which is a forensic term that denies regeneration. While we agree that there is a forensic dimension to justification, scripture indicates that this position alone falls short of the full meaning and power of God’s grace and denies walking in the spirit as a regenerated man. Catholic teaching is correct and fully corresponds to scripture.

If you think that by faith alone you walk blameless before God even though you sin, then you have no concept of sin, repentence, walking in the spirit, living by grace, and doing God’s will. I have already given you scriptures to support all of this; just read all of my posts. And please ask yourself the question: “Can a person be saved if they do not love God.” The answer is “No” and it is therefore clear that we are not saved by faith alone.

I suspect that you are a “once saved always saved believer.” I have personally researched over 60 verses of scripture that deny this erroneous doctrine. If you would like to see them send me an email request, and I will forward the file to you.

 

[Solo_Christo]

Pax
Please do send me those verses that go against Perseverance of the Saints.

Thanks.

 

[Solo_Christo]

Luther said a really cool thing but I do not know the exact wording but here it is, “to rely on faith alone for salvation is just like relying on works, both will damn you to hell.”

What he meant was that not even faith saves but Christ does through His grace. This is the gospel. God chooses us from eternity and then regenerates us so that we are not dead in sin anymore, then we are given the free gift of faith by His grace, then we also receive the Holy Spirit and Christ’s imputed righteousness. When this happens we receive spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit starts working through us to produce fruits for God (works), that we do as a result of our faith and salvation. All this I can and will support with Scripture, after I study the Catholic faith.

Now I have a question for you all: If our faith + works save us, then why did Christ have to die to pay the penalty for sin? If he paid for the sins on the cross, why would we still be paying off what He already accomplished on the cross? If he died for our sins like the Bible says, then why are we working off our sins? Was His sacrifice no sufficient enough to clean His sheep of there sins?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Solo Christo:

Luther said a really cool thing but I do not know the exact wording but here it is, “to rely on faith alone for salvation is just like relying on works, both will damn you to hell.”

What he meant was that not even faith saves but Christ does through His grace. This is the gospel. God chooses us from eternity and then regenerates us so that we are not dead in sin anymore, then we are given the free gift of faith by His grace, then we also receive the Holy Spirit and Christ’s imputed righteousness. When this happens we receive spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit starts working through us to produce fruits for God (works), that we do as a result of our faith and salvation. All this I can and will support with Scripture, after I study the Catholic faith.

Now I have a question for you all: If our faith + works save us, then why did Christ have to die to pay the penalty for sin? If he paid for the sins on the cross, why would we still be paying off what He already accomplished on the cross? If he died for our sins like the Bible says, then why are we working off our sins? Was His sacrifice no sufficient enough to clean His sheep of there sins?

Faith and works are fruits of Grace given by God that we have embraced rather than reject,Catholics believe we are saved by Grace.We in no way believe that faith and works can save us,demons know God exists and works apart from Jesus merit us NOTHING.God Bless

 

[Pax]

Solo,

Lisa has summarized the Catholic position quite well in that it is important to remember that “everything” is by grace. Faith is a gift of grace. The supernatural gifts of hope and love are also gifts of grace. We merit nothing including faith. However, once we have the gift of faith and embrace that faith, our works take on a new significance. Our works are nothing less than the Father’s work of grace in our hearts, minds, souls, and bodies.

Think of Mother Thresa of Calcutta. No one could spend their entire adult life “doing” what she did for the poor and dying on their own. What she accomplished was accomplished by the grace of God. If we have no works as Christians but we have faith (i.e. belief in God) then our faith is a dead faith. We are in some way or another refusing to accept God’s grace. Ephesians 2:8-10 says “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Notice how we are saved by grace through faith. This is essential. Nothing we do ahead of this means anything because it is a gift of God. Once this is accomplished, however, we become “a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.”
[2 Corinthians 5:17]. When we understand this we can appreciate the relationship of faith and works as expressed so beautifully in verse 10 of Eph 2 where it says, "we are his[God’s] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Before we are brought into a state of justification, God has already prepared the good works that we are to walk in. This is the relationship of grace, faith and works, and this is why James says that “we are saved by works and not by faith alone.” Everything flows from and by way of God’s grace.

 

[Church_Militant]

Solo Christo:

Luther said a really cool thing but I do not know the exact wording but here it is, “to rely on faith alone for salvation is just like relying on works, both will damn you to hell.”

What he meant was that not even faith saves but Christ does through His grace. This is the gospel. God chooses us from eternity and then regenerates us so that we are not dead in sin anymore, then we are given the free gift of faith by His grace, then we also receive the Holy Spirit and Christ’s imputed righteousness. When this happens we receive spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit starts working through us to produce fruits for God (works), that we do as a result of our faith and salvation. All this I can and will support with Scripture, after I study the Catholic faith.

Now I have a question for you all: If our faith + works save us, then why did Christ have to die to pay the penalty for sin? If he paid for the sins on the cross, why would we still be paying off what He already accomplished on the cross? If he died for our sins like the Bible says, then why are we working off our sins? Was His sacrifice no sufficient enough to clean His sheep of there sins?

Isn’t this off topic?

 

[Pax]

YuRa:

Pax-

They walked blameless because they had the righteousness of Christ not there own. How many times do I have to say that. The only reason anyone is righteous is because they have the imputed righteousness of Christ. No mans righteousness is perfect, we have all sinned. All the righteous men talked about in the Bible are righteous on the account of Christ. So when we are before God at the gates of Heaven, God will not see our righteousness which is fitly but Christ’s. A mans own righteousness can only condemn him to hell.

Scripture says that Elizabeth and Zachariah among others were blameless before God.

Again they were blameless because they had Christ’s righteousness not mans.

As far as Elizibeth… if I believe in Christ my savior then I have His righteousness and I am blameless before the Lord.

YuRa,

I am responding to this even though you are apparently no longer going to post under your current “handle.” I am hoping that you and anyone else that reads this thread will see the need for addressing your point. Please note that your claim about Elizabeth and Zachariah does not correspond to scripture. The verse in scripture is Luke 1:6 and it says, “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”

This verse does not suggest that these two people were sinners and that their righteousness was simply a coverage by the blood of Christ. This verse says that “they were walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” This was obviously accomplished by the grace of God in their lives. They were, thereby, living holy and sinless lives before God. There is no other way to understand this verse. And once again, Elizabeth who was living this holy and blameless life was in awe of Mary the Mother of our Lord and felt apparently unworthy that Mary would come to her. In verses 42 and 43 Elizabeth says, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” This is significant considering the fact that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said these things, and she puts Mary ahead of herself(blameless), and all other women.

Eve was created without original sin. Mary was protected from original sin at the moment of her conception. Eve brought sin into the world. Mary, as mother, brought Jesus our savior into the world. Who is greater…Mary or Eve? Furthermore there is a tremendous connection between Mary and the Ark. You can examine this on other threads on this forum. This connection is made again in the book of Revelation at the end of Chapter 11 and continues into Chapter 12. In Revelation we read about the woman[Mary], the male child[Jesus], and the serpent[satan]. This goes back and corresponds to Genesis 3:15 where it says, " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;"

The woman that bears the male child is Mary, and Rev 12:14-17 describes the “enmity” between the woman and the dragon. The dragon pursues the woman but cannot catch her. She is protected from Satan. Revelation then tells us that in his anger toward the woman, Satan pursues her off spring. These off spring are described in verse 17 as “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

Think about all of this and the beautiful and powerful scriptural connections contained in these passages. It is truly a spiritual work of divine artistry that shows the power and love of God and it demonstrates Mary’s special place in God’s great work of salvation.

 

[MarkAnthonyCozy]

And what is this protection that God gives Mary from Satan? She was given “two wings of a great eagle” and a place “where she is nourished.” Rev 12:14

Mary was preserved free from sin, otherwise the prince of this world would have a claim against her.

As a woman plays a role in the fall of Adam, so does a woman play a role the coming of the New Adam. Perfect execution of God’s perfect plan to take back all that was lost and bring all the captives home.

Imagine Satan’s rage.

It’s one thing to be bested by Jesus Christ, God incarnate, Son of the Living God our Father who reigns in heaven. It’s another thing that his complete downfall also comes through the “handmaid of the LORD”

 

[Solo_Christo]

I will defend for YuRa:

I totally agree with you that we are saved by Gods grace. The thing I disagree on is the point of justification and I see the disagreement is inter-Catholic also. Let me give you an example.

Faith and works are fruits of Grace given by God that we have embraced rather than reject,Catholics believe we are saved by Grace.

Then I read:

Before we are brought into a state of justification, God has already prepared the good works that we are to walk in.

So when is the point of justification? When we “finished the good fight” and meet the Lord in Heaven? No, justification happens at the instant of faith. Sanctification is finished in Heaven. I have just come to realize that; there is where we do not agree. The Catholic position redefines terms like sanctification and righteousness.

About Mary.

This verse does not suggest that these two people were sinners and that their righteousness was simply a coverage by the blood of Christ. This verse says that “they were walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” This was obviously accomplished by the grace of God in their lives. They were, thereby, living holy and sinless lives before God.

That is not correct. The verse implies she had the righteousness of Christ and therefore was righteous. Catholic position just does not believe all have sinned, like the Bible says (yes Christ was an exception because He is God not man; unless you claim Mary to be God she has sinned also). No person has ever lived on the earth without sin. If they did Christ died in vain. Let it never be.

This is significant considering the fact that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said these things, and she puts Mary ahead of herself(blameless), and all other women.

Where do you get that she had the Holy Spirit in her? I would hope Elizabeth puts Mary ahead of herself; ithat not what Christ calls us to do for our brothers? Y’know like we are all supposed to do. Mary was ahead of Elizabeth because she had the Savior in her womb. This means Mary was righteous also; Mary was saved. Mary calls Christ her savior. If she never sinned she would not need a Savior.

Eve was created without original sin. Mary was protected from original sin at the moment of her conception.

Are you saying Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is therefore part God? Let it never be; Scripture is clear One was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Therefore only One was free of original sin; that was Christ who paid the penalty for sin. Which all man committed. If others were free of sin (original or personal) they could therefore die on the cross also; meaning Christ died in vain. Let it never be.

Eve brought sin into the world. Mary, as mother, brought Jesus our savior into the world. Who is greater…Mary or Eve?

Eve was created without any sin but then sinned and continued to sin, and Mary was born with sin and continued to sin. Both were righteous because they had faith in Christ. But Mary gave birth to Christ, so she was greater privileged. But neither Eve nor Mary should be idolatrized for that is sin.

 

[Solo_Christo]

Genesis 3:15 where it says, " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;"

Gen 3:15 is a promise to redeem man from sin with a Savior; who will alone crush Satan. If anyone says Mary and Christ were a team; they have put Christ on the cross in vain. Christ died and paid the penalty for sin alone. Mary stood by and cried in confusion.

It is truly a spiritual work of divine artistry that shows the power and love of God and it demonstrates Mary’s special place in God’s great work of salvation.

Never disgrace Christ by saying Mary played any role in the great work of salvation. She was an instrument to bring the Savior into the word. That was the only role she played. Why do you think when God was done using her there was so little mention of her? That is because she is irrelevant, because Christ did it all. Mary was but a humble little servant who did what her master desired; when she completed the task she was done.

Mary played no role in the redemption of man. If she did Christ died in vain. Mary was a sinner that was righteous because of Christ’s imputed righteousness; therefore making her blameless. Just like all of us who have Christ’s imputed righteousness and are blameless; we still all fall into sin. Just like Mary, Moses, Abraham, David, and any other man of the Bible. Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit therefore was 100% God and 100% man. And He alone was the one that paid my debt to God. He took away the wrath of the Father that was on me. He did it alone that’s why He gets all the glory, fulfilling His purpose for mankind. If Mary played any role I would be thanking her for my salvation. Let it never be. If Mary played any part she would deserve glory. Let this heresy never be.

And what is this protection that God gives Mary from Satan? She was given “two wings of a great eagle” and a place “where she is nourished.” Rev 12:14

Mary is dead. Just like every other man from long ago. The only role she will play when Christ comes again is the same one every other man will play. She will be lifted into Heaven to meet the Lord. Just like every other person that died in the faith.

Not Chrito i Maria

but its solo Christo = Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Solo_Christo]

Pax-

You wrote:

Before we are brought into a state of justification, God has already prepared the good works that we are to walk in.

So do the works that we walk in justify us or the faith we live by? Or even both?

 

[alyssa]

It saddens me, when I see people treat Mary as if she is an object the Lord used then threw away, and never considered again. That is honestly the feeling I am getting from these posts- and perhaps the culture of death has come so close we cannot even recognize it. Is not God Love? Why would he not chose to honor the woman who said “yes,” when eve said no. Are you guys really reading each other’s post and trying to understand where each comes from? Or skimming, and pulling out those things you disagree with, and representing the same tired points over and over. I’m sorry, but I needed to get this out.

 

[Solo_Christo]

I am glad you needed to get you view out; I would like to do the same thing.

Mary was a mere women; believing anything else is idolatry therefore sin. Christ did it all; He gets all the glory. All she gets in a seat in Heaven like me and you, because she had faith just like me and you.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

alyssa:

It saddens me, when I see people treat Mary as if she is an object the Lord used then threw away, and never considered again. That is honestly the feeling I am getting from these posts- and perhaps the culture of death has come so close we cannot even recognize it. Is not God Love? Why would he not chose to honor the woman who said “yes,” when eve said no. Are you guys really reading each other’s post and trying to understand where each comes from? Or skimming, and pulling out those things you disagree with, and representing the same tired points over and over. I’m sorry, but I needed to get this out.

It saddens me as well.There idea of God would disturb me if I were them,if God would take someone to heaven on a chariot and leave his mother to rot dead in the ground,their idea of God is indeed sad.:crying: God Bless and Jesus have Mercy

 

[Solo_Christo]

God took men in a chariot because those men sanctified themselves, and God felt it necessary. The Bible does not tell us if Mary was taken in a chariot; therefore do not come to that conclusion. She gave birth to Him and He was God! So who was privileged in the situation? Was Christ privileged to have Mary as a mom, or was Mary privileged to have Christ as a child? Again I stress; Mary is not mentioned much in the Bible because she plays no significant role. The role she played was giving birth to the Messiah; when that was done she slowly dropped out of the picture because she was not the one dieing for the sins of the world.

Again I stress; to see Mary as anything more then a mere instrument of God is idolatry therefore sin.

 

[Solo_Christo]

if God would take someone to heaven on a chariot and leave his mother to rot dead in the ground,their idea of God is indeed sad.

I believe your idea of God is sad. Why would God need to take Mary to Heaven in a chariot? Does God somehow owe Mary a favor for bearing His Son? God is not obligated to any man. Mary was a mortal like me and you; she died and for all we know was buried. She could have been taken in a chariot, but I do not see why God would do that and not have some apostle write about it. It makes no logical sense, and nothing in Scripture suggests it. So please stop passing it off as fact. The only way such a teaching could have started was because some man idolized Mary and started the rumor which developed to tradition.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Solo Christo:

God took men in a chariot because those men sanctified themselves, and God felt it necessary. The Bible does not tell us if Mary was taken in a chariot; therefore do not come to that conclusion. She gave birth to Him and He was God! So who was privileged in the situation? Was Christ privileged to have Mary as a mom, or was Mary privileged to have Christ as a child? Again I stress; Mary is not mentioned much in the Bible because she plays no significant role. The role she played was giving birth to the Messiah; when that was done she slowly dropped out of the picture because she was not the one dieing for the sins of the world.

Again I stress; to see Mary as anything more then a mere instrument of God is idolatry therefore sin.

Her gift was given to her by God NOBODY here says it is the other way around!Also,I hate to burst your bubble but we don’t worship Mary!Nor do we throw in Gods face what he did for her and deny it out of pride or being scared that God would be upset that we acknowledge what He did for his Mother.God gets all the Glory,and we appreciate what He has done for us and His Mother.God Bless

 

[Solo_Christo]

Again she is not His mother. Do not capitalize mother when you say it. Do not give Mary a divine title. I never said you worship her; all I said and I will say it again is: If you see Mary as anything more then a servant of God you idolize her and have committed a sin. Mary was a humble servant of God. How God puts Mary is below the apostles, because she never wrote an inspired book or letter. There is a bigger chance of Paul or Matthew or any other NT writer to have been taken away in a chariot then Mary.

My question now is how many times does the phrase “Blessed Virgin Mother”, “Our Blessed Mother”, or “Blessed Virgin” come up in Scripture? (referring to anyone besides the earthly mother of Christ) In capital form I mean. I frankly do not remember a single instant where she is said to be the “Blessed Virgin Mother” of all man.