What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[Howie01]

jemfinch:

Then by your own principle of rejecting any argument whose words do not appear in the actual text of the Bible, I reject your argument.

I’ve never stated that as a principle; nevertheless, it’s true that Christ doesn’t save false professing, false teachers.

jemfinch:

The Church didn’t teach me that, the Bible did. I’ve recognized that genuine Christians can give up their inheritance like Esau did, they can make a shipwreck of their faith like Hymenaeus and Alexander did, they can deny the master who bought them like the false teachers of 2 Peter 2 did since long before I joined the Catholic Church.

OK.

jemfinch:

No, your understanding of Christ’s statements in John 6 cannot be right in light of Peter’s statement in 2 Peter 2. We can go on like this all day long, Howie.

Exactly my thought as I was putting together my last post.

jemfinch:

On the contrary, the problem lies in your misunderstanding of that statement.

How so?

jemfinch:

The present participle denotes continuous action. It does not denote past action. You’re overreaching here.

They are, and have always have been, false teachers…denying the Master…exploiting with false words…[whose] judgment from long ago is not idle…[whose] destruction is not asleep.

jemfinch:

Except some did, as Peter said later, they have escaped: a perfect tense indicating completed action. If there can be no one who has escaped and later loses his salvation, Peter’s warning is in vain.

Your error is, you equate that with being converted.

Many people desire to get away from the pollutions of the world, and many do so by seeking asylum in religious communities. That doesn’t mean they’re believers, but tares.

Again, the professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith; eventually, his true colors will show (Mt 13:20-22). And thus, like the dog and sow that he is, he eventually returns to his own vomit, and to wallowing in the mire. He was never changed.

jemfinch:

True, but again, Peter’s talking about those who have escaped: perfect tense, completed action. These people escaped the defilements of the world either by their own power (in which case you’re a Pelagian) or by God’s power (in which case they were saved). Which do you choose?

Answered above.

jemfinch:

Neither of these points even begin to address the actual issue: that people who “have escaped” can fall back into sin and be in an even worse state than they were originally.

They do address the issue. They place the rescue of the lost squarely in the hands of the rescuer, who as Jude says:**Jude 24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy…**What a guarantee! You see, that’s the greatness of Jesus as Savior—He really saves!

And those who’ve done nothing more than sought temporary refuge from the pollutions of the world within a community of believers, are not saved, but tares.

jemfinch:

Except he was. He escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ. If that’s not a change, what is? If that’s not salvation, what is?

True salvation results in DEATH.

The old man passes away, into non-existence, and a new creation replaces him, and he perseveres to the end, by the merciful and gracious will of God.

Oh sure, an echo of the old man remains, and it conflicts the saved from time to time, and sometimes seriously (Rom 7:21-23); however, it’s just an echo that cannot condemn him. He cannot return to that which no longer exists.

jemfinch:

I was referring to your quotation of John, obviously.

Forgive my misunderstanding.

You said, ”the fact that some people may initially believe but aren’t elect….”

Why would the Father charge Christ with not losing those who only “may initially believe, but aren’t elect?”

Is it your position that the Father is unsure of what they’ll ultimately do?

Why then would He charge the Son with a task that He’s not sure the Son can accomplish—a task in which the Son may fail?

jemfinch:

Maybe you live in a different sort of community than I do, but I’m sure as heck a lot closer to my wife than to the people I go to Church with. This argument does not hold.

It’s a beautiful argument, and a question you haven’t answered.

I’ll post it again:If an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by being in proximity to his/her believing spouse, how much more is the unbeliever sanctified by being in proximity to an assembly of believers
(1 Cor 7:14)?

.

 

[moondweller]

We don’t disagree that it is grace,

Oh, but we do disagree. Because I believe according to the Scriptures that salvation is ALL of grace through faith. Both grace and faith are connected to the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ. The gospel is the message concerning Him. The “report” concerning the Person and work of Christ it to be believed for eternal life.

but Pauline theology is inconsistent with James 2 in your explaination of it (and we know the Word of God cannot contradict itself). James 2 has to be “good work” and not “works of the Mosaic law”. The only way it makes sense is the “Mosaic law” and “works of the law” vs. “grace” and “faith + good works.”

So, give me the list of good works James provides for his readers in order to be justified by those works. The Law provided specific commandments, certainly there must be a list of specific works.

No, my friend, James is writing to those who have already believed and are justified through faith. What he wants from them is a demonstration of that faith by which they were justified - like Abraham (Gen. 15:6).

If you disagree, what is this saying?

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The context is 2:18:"But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Even Abraham’s faith in the Lord grew and was demonstrated when he was willing to offer up his only son to sacrifice many years later (cf. Heb. 11:19). It is this kind of demonstrable faith by which God justifies a believer. But it’s not the demonstration of faith through which God justifies the ungodly, but the faith itself. Even James cites ONLY Gen. 15:6 (Ja. 2:23) as the Scriptural reference for Abraham’s justification. Scripture reveals that God justified Abraham only ONCE, and that was at the time of belief in Him. His faith in the Lord grew (matured) as demonstrated by his willingness to offer up Isaac; but it was his faith (not the works) by which God justified Abraham (Gen. 15:6).

It’s you, trying to prove your “gospel” of justification by works that pits James against Paul. But James cites only Gen. 15:6 in reference to God justifying Abraham, and that based on Abraham’s belief in Him, alone (Ja. 2:23), as does Paul (Rom. 4:3). What you do is lift James out of context. James isn’t presenting a doctrine of justification, but encouraging those who have been justified through faith in Christ to follow up that faith with good works. But it’s not the works by which God justifies, but FAITH (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5, 25; 5:1-2).

In your reply please give me the list of “good works” James provides for his readers that God might justify them. Or are you suggesting, like Abraham, all must offer up at least one son to sacrifice in order to be justified? Or like Rahab, hide some Jews.

The book of Job was written before Christ’s first advent. These aren’t the exact words but the message is the same. Jesus wouldn’t have characterized the mission of the seventy-two as a symbolic fall of Satan unless there was truth to it.
Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky. (Luke 10:18)

The first advent of Christ had nothing to do with Satan’s expulsion from heaven. That won’t occur until just prior to His second advent (Rev. 12:9). “Like lightening falling from heaven” is a reference to his power, not his person (see Lk. 10:19). Satan is called “…the prince of the power of the air.”

You didn’t give me a Scriptural reference where it’s stated the Devil “fell from grace,” as you claim he did. The gospel of grace has to do with salvation: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”; so when was Satan ever saved by grace?

 

[SHW]

Gal 3:22-24 “But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”

The “Law” spoken of here is the “Law of Moses.” The Jews could not be justified/redeemed (reconciled to God [atone for Adam’s sin]) by sacrificing animals under the Law of Moses. No animal sacrifice can atone for Adam’s sin (Romans 5) No “righteous works” could atone for Adam’s sin. No “works” of any kind could redeem us from Adam’s Original Sin which caused the death of our bodies and loss of eternal life.

However, Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross does redeem us from Adam’s sin and Jesus’ sacrifice does justify us if we believe in Him and we are also baptized.

In order to be redeemed, we must “believe” in Jesus Christ. However, to “believe” carries a responsibility to “obey.” We are commanded to be baptized in order to wash away our sins.

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

He who does not believe also does not receive baptism and so he will be condemned.

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Romans 6:4 “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should (must) walk in newness of life.”

Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.”
**
If you think that these persons would still be saved if they did not obey Peter’s command to be baptized, then you are mistaken.**

Jesus redeems us and justifies us when we are baptized. We profess our faith in Him by consenting to Baptism. This Baptism washes away our sins and gives us “hope” of eternal life. We are then responsible to cooperate with God’s grace (which was given to us at our Baptisms) and continue in our justification in order actually inherit eternal life at our deaths.

After baptism, then I must continue in my justification (by obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruits/works) in order to be “found faithful” at my death.

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Please explain to me how I can save myself and others if I am supposedly already saved “once and for all” for eternity (which is also known as the “eternal security” doctrine)??? Eternal Security is a false doctrine.

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 **if **indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

If we do not “continue” in the faith (if we disobey God’s commandments), then we are no longer saved. If we move away from the gospel by doing “wicked works” then we are no longer saved.

Good fruits/works are proof of a living faith and we are judged according to our works on Judgment Day. (2 Corinthians 11:15, 1 Peter 1:17, Revelation 22:12, Matthew 25:31-46)
**
“Faith Alone” is a false doctrine.** Final justification is conditional. If we are found faithful (1 Corinthians 4:2) at our deaths, then we inherit eternal life. If we have practiced lawlessness and have not repented before death, then we receive the wrath of God (Romans 1:18, Ephesians 5:6, Romans 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 1:8) in hell for eternity.

Galatians 6:7-10 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.”

In no Scripture whatsoever, do I find that we will be judged by “belief alone” or “faith alone” on Judgment Day.

Matthew 25:30 “And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Pax,
SHW

P.S. I strive (Acts 24:16) to always be “in Christ” by cooperating with the grace of God in order to obey God’s commandments and produce good fruits because I want to be “found faithful” on Judgment Day so that Jesus will say to me: “Well done, good and faithful servant.” (Matthew 25:23)

 

[ryanoneil]

I think some in this converstion are only seeing one side of Scripture. Some Scriptures deal only with what God does, and others only with what we do, but we cannot interpret them in isolation. They have to be harmonized with the entire Bible.

Take John 6:37-44 for example. In verse 37, Jesus is saying that those the Father draws by His grace will come to Jesus. But note that it doesn’t say that the drawing is an “irresistible decree," or that the people who are drawn will remain with Jesus until “the last day.” In verse 39, Jesus says it is not the Father’s will that Jesus should lose any of what He gave Jesus. This is true. But this only deals with the Father’s will, not human will, which could ultimately reject Jesus. Verse 40 again is about God’s will; it does not address the human will, which could choose to reject Jesus at some point in the future.

In verse 44, Jesus affirms that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws him. This is true; it is speaking of the fact that we cannot come to Christ but by God’s grace. But again, it says nothing about remaining with Jesus or being eternally secure with Jesus. So, when a Scripture describes God’s divine action (the predestination side), we cannot exclude human response (the free will side).

 

[jemfinch]

I’ve never stated that as a principle

It’s the principle by which you dismissed my original argument.

Exactly my thought as I was putting together my last post.

Yeah, it’s too bad we don’t have some higher power, some court of final appeal to which we can go with our disagreement :-/

How so?

You say that 2 Peter 2 must be interpreted in light of your (mis)understanding of John 6. I say that John 6 must be interpreted in light of my understanding of 2 Peter 2. I’m saying that if you understand 2 Peter 2 correctly, you’ll understand John 6 correctly. It’s just the reverse of what you’re saying.

They are, and have always have been, false teachers…denying the Master…

The master who bought them, mind you.

exploiting with false words…[whose] judgment from long ago is not idle…[whose] destruction is not asleep.

Clearly these people are not elect, but that doesn’t help your argument. I’m saying that people who aren’t elect can begin the process of Christian salvation but not complete it.

Your error is, you equate that with being converted.

I equate it because it’s clearly the case: these people did not escape from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ by their own power, because humans can’t do that.

Many people desire to get away from the pollutions of the world, and many do so by seeking asylum in religious communities.

You’re reading that idea into Peter’s text in order to justify your misinterpretation of it. It’s simply not there in the words Peter wrote. Escaping the world by entrance into a religious community simply isn’t consistent with Peter’s later words, “they are again entangled in them and overcome.” Under your interpretation, that would need to mean that they left the religious community, and all who do so are in a worse state than their original state, but that’s not the case.

That doesn’t mean they’re believers, but tares.

We’d agree there: the difference seems to be that you say that the tares escaped the defilement of the world through their own power, but I think they did it through God’s gracious gift to them, even though God knows they will not ultimately persevere.

Again, the professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith; eventually, his true colors will show (Mt 13:20-22). And thus, like the dog and sow that he is, he eventually returns to his own vomit, and to wallowing in the mire. He was never changed.

So he must have escaped the defilements of the world by his own power, then.

To Be Continued…

 

[jemfinch]

Answered above.

Not adequately. The false teachers were bought by Christ. The ones they later mislead have escaped the defilements of the world and are enticed by their false teaching back into them. Both these groups were saved at one point, but ultimately do not persevere.

They do address the issue. They place the rescue of the lost squarely in the hands of the rescuer, who as Jude says:Jude 24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy…What a guarantee! You see, that’s the greatness of Jesus as Savior—He really saves!

My vacuum cleaner came with a guarantee, but if it breaks, I still need to go to the vacuum cleaner repairman to get it fixed, do I not? If I refuse to go to the vacuum cleaner repairman, my vacuum cleaner remains broken and useless. So it is with God and salvation. We must turn to him for initial salvation, and we must continually turn to Him for continued salvation.

The old man passes away, into non-existence, and a new creation replaces him, and he perseveres to the end, by the merciful and gracious will of God.

Yes, those who persevere to the end do so by the merciful and gracious will of God, but not all do persevere to the end. Paul also recognized the possibility that he may not persevere. “Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” And, fortunately for you, this passage does include that all-important word “imperishable,” describing our inheritance, our salvation, which Paul clearly lived with the recognition that he might lose.

You said, ”the fact that some people may initially believe but aren’t elect….”

Why would the Father charge Christ with not losing those who only “may initially believe, but aren’t elect?”

He didn’t. He charged Christ with not losing any whom God gives Him. But that passage does not exclude the existence of people whom God did not give Christ (who aren’t elect) but who still initially believe in Christ.

Let me put it this way: you must recognize that even the unsaved can do good things. Christ himself recognized this when He said, “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children…” Some unsaved people may save another person’s life at great risk to their own, for instance. They may feed the hungry and clothe the naked. If they can do these good things and still remain ultimately unsaved, how can they not believe in Christ and still remain ultimately unsaved?

Is it your position that the Father is unsure of what they’ll ultimately do?

Of course not. My position is that not all who believe in Christ are elected unto final salvation: some will by their own fault fail to persevere, while those elected unto final salvation will by the grace of God persevere.

Why then would He charge the Son with a task that He’s not sure the Son can accomplish—a task in which the Son may fail?

This doesn’t apply to my actual position.

It’s a beautiful argument, and a question you haven’t answered.

I’ll post it again:If an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by being in proximity to his/her believing spouse, how much more is the unbeliever sanctified by being in proximity to an assembly of believers
(1 Cor 7:14)?

Again I say, I am aware of no religious community whose members live even remotely as closely as my wife and I live as one flesh. Your argument fails to obtain because it depends on “being in proximity to an assembly of believers” having a greater effect (“how much more”) than the proximity a husband and wife experience every day.

Jeremy

 

[ryanoneil]

Oh, but we do disagree. Because I believe according to the Scriptures that salvation is ALL of grace through faith. Both grace and faith are connected to the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ. The gospel is the message concerning Him. The “report” concerning the Person and work of Christ it to be believed for eternal life.

How can that be? If we believe Jesus, when He told us to do things, it would require work.

So, give me the list of good works James provides for his readers in order to be justified by those works. The Law provided specific commandments, certainly there must be a list of specific works.

Start by reading chapter 1 and don’t overlook verse 22, which says we must be doers of the word. To do what the word says, I suggest you read the rest of the New Testament.

No, my friend, James is writing to those who have already believed and are justified through faith.

We call this initial justification.

What he wants from them is a demonstration of that faith by which they were justified

This is works perfecting and completing justification.

like Abraham (Gen. 15:6).The context is 2:18:"But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Even Abraham’s faith in the Lord grew and was demonstrated when he was willing to offer up his only son to sacrifice many years later (cf. Heb. 11:19). It is this kind of demonstrable faith by which God justifies a believer. But it’s not the demonstration of faith through which God justifies the ungodly, but the faith itself.

That was good up until the last sentence.
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14)
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:17)
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? (James 2:20)
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

Even James cites ONLY Gen. 15:6 (Ja. 2:23) as the Scriptural reference for Abraham’s justification. Scripture reveals that God justified Abraham only ONCE, and that was at the time of belief in Him. His faith in the Lord grew (matured) as demonstrated by his willingness to offer up Isaac; but it was his faith (not the works) by which God justified Abraham (Gen. 15:6).

James condradicts your line of reasoning by revealing that Abraham was also justified in Gen 22.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. (James 2:21-22)

It’s you, trying to prove your “gospel” of justification by works that pits James against Paul. But James cites only Gen. 15:6 in reference to God justifying Abraham, and that based on Abraham’s belief in Him, alone (Ja. 2:23), as does Paul (Rom. 4:3). What you do is lift James out of context. James isn’t presenting a doctrine of justification, but encouraging those who have been justified through faith in Christ to follow up that faith with good works. But it’s not the works by which God justifies, but FAITH (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:5, 25; 5:1-2).

You are saying the exact opposite of what James says.

James 2:14-26

The first advent of Christ had nothing to do with Satan’s expulsion from heaven. That won’t occur until just prior to His second advent (Rev. 12:9).

Sorry, that happened after Christ ascended to heaven. Mary will not give birth to Jesus a second time.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. (Rev 12:5-8)

 

[SHW]

I believe that God is the perfect, and only savior who is able to save His people to the uttermost (cf Mt 1:21; Heb 7:25). That’s God’s revelation of Himself.

Since you believe that Jesus is able to save His people and said that Jesus saves His people "to the uttermost," please explain the following Scripture:

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Please explain to me why Paul states that Timothy can save himself and others, since, according to you, he has already been saved “once and for all” (to the uttermost) for eternity by simply professing his belief in Christ?

You believe in “faith alone” and “eternal security,” so please explain why Paul exhorts Timothy to “continue in the doctrines” in order to save himself and to even save others also.

According to your beliefs, Timothy cannot possibly be lost after he is once saved, so do you now accuse Paul of preaching false doctrines because his doctrines do not agree with your doctrines?

Actually Paul has very strong words for those who do not believe the gospel that he himself preaches:

Galatians 1:8 “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

I, myself, am imitating Paul since He imitates Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1) and so I am “working out my salvation with fear and trembling,” “lest after I preach to others, I myself should become disqualified” for eternal life. (Philippians 2:12,1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 10:12) I believe that this (Paul’s gospel teaching) is good sound teaching for everyone who wants to enter eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

jemfinch:

It’s the principle by which you dismissed my original argument.

OK.

jemfinch:

Yeah, it’s too bad we don’t have some higher power, some court of final appeal to which we can go with our disagreement :-/

Yeah, too bad.

jemfinch:

You say that 2 Peter 2 must be interpreted in light of your (mis)understanding of John 6. I say that John 6 must be interpreted in light of my understanding of 2 Peter 2. I’m saying that if you understand 2 Peter 2 correctly, you’ll understand John 6 correctly. It’s just the reverse of what you’re saying.

OK.

jemfinch:

The master who bought them, mind you.

You continue to cite that phrase, while ignoring its lead-in, which I continually bring to you. So, it’s time for me to say a little more about this “denying” that’s being done.

The Greek word is a strong word that means "to refuse," or “to be unwilling,” or "to firmly say no." It’s the same word used in Heb 11:24 to describe the “refusal” of Moses, to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. Just as Moses never assented to being called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, so these false teachers never assented to being called sons of God; they were false.

ISTM that you understand that statement, (the Master who bought them), to mean that Christ actually purchased full redemption of all people, even these false teachers. Taken to its logical conclusion, hell will be populated by people whose salvation was purchased by Christ. But my understanding of Catholic predestination necessitates a limited atonement, even though the Church may not state it, or even deny it.

Moreover, if Christ purchased full redemption for all men, including these false teachers, that perspective means Christ died to make salvation possible, rather than actual. Again, that view, IMO, conflicts with Catholic predestination as I understand it.

jemfinch:

Clearly these people are not elect, but that doesn’t help your argument. I’m saying that people who aren’t elect can begin the process of Christian salvation but not complete it.

Me too; the difference being, you would say they were justified; I would say they were not justified.

jemfinch:

I equate it because it’s clearly the case: these people did not escape from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ by their own power, because humans can’t do that.

Sure they can. One can leave civilization and go live as hermit in the desert, or any other place where he’s alone.

As a practical example, I had an acquaintance who lived a raucous live, got married, settled down and had children. He taught English lit., and had no television in his home, and watched over the activities of his family. Strangely, he had been reading the bible for many, many years, with his entire family. He knew the book backward and forward; he knew the characters, understood the “lessons,” and, didn’t believe a word of it was true. He didn’t believe that God existed, let alone Christ. A few years ago, his behavior began to change. I don’t know the full story; however, he left his family and was living in a motel, alone, where he died of heroin overdose.

He escaped the defilements of the world while denying Christ—for a time.

jemfinch:

You’re reading that idea into Peter’s text in order to justify your misinterpretation of it.

jemfinch:

We’d agree there: the difference seems to be that you say that the tares escaped the defilement of the world through their own power, but I think they did it through God’s gracious gift to them, even though God knows they will not ultimately persevere.

As I stated earlier, you believe tares are justified; I don’t believe tares are justified; that’s why the Lord calls them “tares,” and why he calls the justified, “wheat.”

(continued)

 

[Howie01]

(continued from #149)

.

jemfinch:

So he must have escaped the defilements of the world by his own power, then.

Why not? Because you have some strict theological construct that says only the justified escape the defilements of the world?

jemfinch:

The false teachers were bought by Christ.

Are you “reading that idea into Peter’s text in order to justify your misinterpretation of it?”

jemfinch:

The ones they later mislead have escaped the defilements of the world and are enticed by their false teaching back into them. Both these groups were saved at one point, but ultimately do not persevere.

Is Christ a potential savior, or, is Christ a real savior?

jemfinch:

My vacuum cleaner came with a guarantee, but if it breaks, I still need to go to the vacuum cleaner repairman to get it fixed, do I not? If I refuse to go to the vacuum cleaner repairman, my vacuum cleaner remains broken and useless. So it is with God and salvation. We must turn to him for initial salvation, and we must continually turn to Him for continued salvation.

**2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; BEHOLD, new things have come.**We ain’t talkin’ vacuum cleaners here, my friend.

jemfinch:

Yes, those who persevere to the end do so by the merciful and gracious will of God, but not all do persevere to the end. Paul also recognized the possibility that he may not persevere. “Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” And, fortunately for you, this passage does include that all-important word “imperishable,” describing our inheritance, our salvation, which Paul clearly lived with the recognition that he might lose.

Even bad preachers can be saved, as you stated in another post (cf 1 Cor 3:15).

(I think Paul’s being humble.)

jemfinch:

Let me put it this way: you must recognize that even the unsaved can do good things. Christ himself recognized this when He said, “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children…” Some unsaved people may save another person’s life at great risk to their own, for instance. They may feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

I absolutely recognize that.

jemfinch:

If they can do these good things and still remain ultimately unsaved, how can they not believe in Christ and still remain ultimately unsaved?

By “not believing in Christ?”

jemfinch:

Of course not. My position is that not all who believe in Christ are elected unto final salvation: some will by their own fault fail to persevere, while those elected unto final salvation will by the grace of God persevere.

This doesn’t apply to my actual position.

OK.

jemfinch:

Again I say, I am aware of no religious community whose members live even remotely as closely as my wife and I live as one flesh. Your argument fails to obtain because it depends on “being in proximity to an assembly of believers” having a greater effect (“how much more”) than the proximity a husband and wife experience every day.

I’m talking unbeliever, with believer, not believer with believer as you claim to be. And, you’re assuming the two in the argument I present, have a relationship as sweet as the one I’m certain you have with your lovely wife. Some may; others may not.

Unbelievers are sanctified by their proximity and association with the body of Christ.

 

[hays1122]

And how are we born again?

Your question was asked many years ago,and is recorded in the Holy Bible.
John Chapter 3
1.And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3.Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4.Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?
5.Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6.That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.
7.Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.
8.The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9.Nicodemus answered, and said to him: How can these things be done?
10.Jesus answered, and said to him: Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things?
I included verse ten so you won’t feel so bad about asking. Even a master in Isreal didn’t know or understand.
Now you know.

 

[SHW]

Your question was asked many years ago,and is recorded in the Holy Bible.
…“unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4.Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?
5.Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6.That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.
7.Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.”…

Hi Hays,

Yes, those Scriptures do help explain it. But there are also more Scriptures which help us to get a fuller understanding of what “born again” means.

“unless a man be born again “of water and the Holy Ghost,” he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

“Born again of water and the Holy Ghost” means Baptism. This is why Jesus commanded his disciples to “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.” Matthew 28:19-20

Baptism makes us disciples of Christ because it washes away our sins: both Original Sin and our own personal sins. (Romans 5)

Romans 6:4 “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” See also Colossians 2:11-14

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Baptism washes away our sins.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

The water of Baptism sanctifies us (makes us holy) and justifies us (redeems us from Adam’s sin and takes away our own personal sins).

Through Baptism, we become heirs in the hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:4-7 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Baptism), 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

But, we must continue in our justification in order to actually inherit eternal life when we die. We do this by obeying God’s commandments and doing good works (producing good fruits).

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

What is the gospel of Christ?

Mark 1:15 "and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

I will give you a hint:

Mark 16:16 “He who believes (in Jesus Christ) and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

After we are baptized, how do we continue being saved?

Mark 12:29-31 "Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

We must keep/obey God’s commandments in order to continue to be saved.

1 John 3:17 “But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?”

We must help those in need especially our own family members.

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

We must obey God’s commandments and produce good fruits in order to continue to be justified/saved because we are judged by our works on Judgment Day as “proof” of our faith in the Gospel. (1 Peter 1:17)

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Since you believe that Jesus is able to save His people and said that Jesus saves His people “to the uttermost,” please explain the following Scripture:

I’m curious, do you think Jesus is able to do that? Is Jesus a real savior, or does Jesus only make salvation a possibility?

SHW:

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Please explain to me why Paul states that Timothy can save himself and others, since, according to you, he has already been saved “once and for all” (to the uttermost) for eternity by simply professing his belief in Christ?

You believe in “faith alone” and “eternal security,” so please explain why Paul exhorts Timothy to “continue in the doctrines” in order to save himself and to even save others also.

According to your beliefs, Timothy cannot possibly be lost after he is once saved, so do you now accuse Paul of preaching false doctrines because his doctrines do not agree with your doctrines?

Actually Paul has very strong words for those who do not believe the gospel that he himself preaches:

This is a pastoral epistle, and Timothy is a pastor. Paul tells Timothy to pay close attention to yourself and to the doctrine. That’s sound advice, eh?

The priorities of a godly leader are summed up in his personal holiness and public teaching. All of Paul’s exhortations in vv. 6–16 fit into one or the other of those two categories.

You will save … yourself. Perseverance in believing the truth always accompanies genuine conversion (cf. John 8:31; Rom. 2:7; Phil. 2:12,13; Col. 1:23). Those who hear you. By careful attention to his own godly life and faithful preaching of the Word, Timothy would continue to be the human instrument God used to bring the gospel and to save some who heard him. Though salvation is God’s work, it is His pleasure to do it through human instruments.

 

[moondweller]

How can that be? If we believe Jesus, when He told us to do things, it would require work.

Ryan, what does Jesus mean where He states:John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."What does He mean by this and on what grounds can He guarantee eternal life?

Start by reading chapter 1 and don’t overlook verse 22, which says we must be doers of the word. To do what the word says, I suggest you read the rest of the New Testament.

The redeemed are to be doers of the Word, that’s true, but in order to be redeemed one must first believe the Word (testimony) of God concerning His Son. Redemption comes through believing, not doing. Justification come through believing, not doing:Rom 4:4-6 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”

We call this initial justification.

Yet “the Word” recognizes no such thing as “initial” justification. You can’t be a “doer” of the Word, Ryan, by changing the Word.

This is works perfecting and completing justification.

There you go again, you so-called “doer” of the Word, you’re changing the Word. James states nothing about perfecting and completing justification by works, but rather:James 2:22 "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;Abraham’s faith in the Lord matured through the works. But he was justified only once. Justification needs no maturity. Justification is the imputation of Divine righteousnesshil 3:9 “…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith.”

James condradicts your line of reasoning by revealing that Abraham was also justified in Gen 22.

Can you show me where in Gen. 22 that which is said about Abraham in Gen. 15:6 is repeated? Can you show me where James quotes Gen. 22 regarding Abraham’s second justification (or third, or fourth, or fifth, sixth, seventh, who knows?)?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. (James 2:21-22)

But where does it say in Gen. 22 that God once again justified Abraham? Yes, he was justified “when” he offered up Isaac; way back in Gen. 15:6. But Scriptures nowhere states that he was justified again BY offering up Isaac. James very well knows that and that’s not what he’s saying.

You are saying the exact opposite of what James says.

Actually, you’re misunderstand what James says.

Sorry, that happened after Christ ascended to heaven. Mary will not give birth to Jesus a second time.

(1) It’s a prophetic vision. (2) It has nothing to do with Mary. (3) It’s fulfillment is future.

I’m still waiting for that list of works James provided his readers to do in order to be justified many, many time throughout their lives. You must have a quote (note I said quote) from James handed down by oral tradition somewhere posted up on a Vatican wall, since James never saw the need to supply one in his Epistle. So far, based on your reasoning, we must all offer up at least one of our children to sacrifice (maybe more, depends on how many times we need to be justified throughout our life time), and, like Rahab, hide some Jews from their enemies. Please supply the rest of the list.

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

I think some in this converstion are only seeing one side of Scripture. Some Scriptures deal only with what God does, and others only with what we do, but we cannot interpret them in isolation. They have to be harmonized with the entire Bible.

Take John 6:37-44 for example. In verse 37, Jesus is saying that those the Father draws by His grace will come to Jesus. But note that it doesn’t say that the drawing is an “irresistible decree," or that the people who are drawn will remain with Jesus until “the last day.”

The passage also doesn’t say the drawing is not an irresistible decree, and also it doesn’t say that the people who are drawn will not remain with Jesus until the last day.

ryanoneil:

In verse 39, Jesus says it is not the Father’s will that Jesus should lose any of what He gave Jesus. This is true. But this only deals with the Father’s will, not human will, which could ultimately reject Jesus. Verse 40 again is about God’s will; it does not address the human will, which could choose to reject Jesus at some point in the future.

Regeneration, re-birth, new creation, union with Christ—what do they mean???

ryanoneil:

In verse 44, Jesus affirms that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws him. This is true; it is speaking of the fact that we cannot come to Christ but by God’s grace.

In your framework, God gives grace to believe to everyone. Why is it you’ve chosen to come, while another has chosen to reject???

Are you smarter? Are you more righteous? If all are equal in grace before God, why do you chose Christ, while another rejects Him?

ryanoneil:

But again, it says nothing about remaining with Jesus or being eternally secure with Jesus.

"…and I WILL RAISE HIM UP…"

You consider Jesus saying that, to be Jesus saying nothing about security?

ryanoneil:

So, when a Scripture describes God’s divine action (the predestination side), we cannot exclude human response (the free will side).

Who on this thread is excluding human response???

 

[johnpaul87]

Ryan, what does Jesus mean where He states:John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."What does He mean by this and on what grounds can He guarantee eternal life?The redeemed are to be doers of the Word, that’s true, but in order to be redeemed one must first believe the Word (testimony) of God concerning His Son. Redemption comes through believing, not doing. Justification come through believing, not doing:Rom 4:4-6 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"Yet “the Word” recognizes no such thing as “initial” justification. You can’t be a “doer” of the Word, Ryan, by changing the Word.There you go again, you so-called “doer” of the Word, you’re changing the Word. James states nothing about perfecting and completing justification by works, but rather:James 2:22 "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;Abraham’s faith in the Lord matured through the works. But he was justified only once. Justification needs no maturity. Justification is the imputation of Divine righteousnesshil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith."Can you show me where in Gen. 22 that which is said about Abraham in Gen. 15:6 is repeated? Can you show me where James quotes Gen. 22 regarding Abraham’s second justification (or third, or fourth, or fifth, sixth, seventh, who knows?)?But where does it say in Gen. 22 that God once again justified Abraham? Yes, he was justified “when” he offered up Isaac; way back in Gen. 15:6. But Scriptures nowhere states that he was justified again BY offering up Isaac. James very well knows that and that’s not what he’s saying.Actually, you’re misunderstand what James says.(1) It’s a prophetic vision. (2) It has nothing to do with Mary. (3) It’s fulfillment is future.

I’m still waiting for that list of works James provided his readers to do in order to be justified many, many time throughout their lives. You must have a quote (note I said quote) from James handed down by oral tradition somewhere posted up on a Vatican wall, since James never saw the need to supply one in his Epistle. So far, based on your reasoning, we must all offer up at least one of our children to sacrifice (maybe more, depends on how many times we need to be justified throughout our life time), and, like Rahab, hide some Jews from their enemies. Please supply the rest of the list.

hey all, ive been reading these threads.its obvious everyone is blind to the scriptures. if youre not saved, the scriptures are greek, you wont understand one lousy word.

 

[johnpaul87]

We don’t disagree that it is grace, but Pauline theology is inconsistent with James 2 in your explaination of it (and we know the Word of God cannot contradict itself). James 2 has to be “good work” and not “works of the Mosaic law”. The only way it makes sense is the “Mosaic law” and “works of the law” vs. “grace” and “faith + good works.”

If you disagree, what is this saying?

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The book of Job was written before Christ’s first advent. These aren’t the exact words but the message is the same. Jesus wouldn’t have characterized the mission of the seventy-two as a symbolic fall of Satan unless there was truth to it.
Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky. (Luke 10:18)

hi there. pauline theology, this theology , that theology. this is great!!! its better than comedy central. i hope i never get kicked out of here

 

[johnpaul87]

No, they believed that works of law would justify them before God. Paul counteracts this false notion withRom 3:20 “…because by the works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge of sin” (not forgiveness of sins).

Rom 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."Paul clearly presents to his readers (the church at Rome, incidentally/ironically) that divine justification is based on the principle of faith alone. In the verses above (20 and 28) there is no definite article before the word “law,” So Paul is not narrowing his argument to the Law of Moses but the whole principle of “law” keeping itself. He nixes the idea of justification as a result of one’s performance in commandment keeping altogether. The example being Abraham who was justified before God at the time of belief in Him (Gen. 15:6), before any so-called “faith works” were performed by him. Long before his willingness to offer up Isaac for sacrifice. Also, Abraham lived 430 years before the Law of Moses came into existence. He wasn’t under “the Law,” his justification was based on faith alone.

His willingness to offer up his only son was a demonstration of his faith in the Lord by which the Lord justified him. If you read James carefully, you’ll see this is also the context of James. He desired his readers to demonstrate the faith by which God had justified them. Such demonstrations of faith are volitional.Scripture doesn’t teach that justification is “achieved” at all. It clearly reveals that justification is Divinely “reckoned/credited” based on faith alone (Rom. 3:26, 27, 28, 30; 4:5). Paul sums it up nicely:Rom 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through law (no definite article, hence, the principle of law , i.e., works through commandment keeping), but through the righteousness of faith."Also that justification is gifted to the believer, based on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (the cross):Rom 3:23-24 "…for all sinned (i.e., in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"IOW, God justifies, giftwise (gratuitously, Gr. dorean: without cause) through Christ’s redemptive work alone. For this reason it is "through faith."Honestly, Ryan, he’s not emphasizing works for justification at all.Oh Ryan:Rom 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.Yes, it’s the “saved by grace through faith” that are to “bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.” But the “law of Christ” justifies no one. It’s the “justified through faith in Christ” that are to fulfill the law of Christ by bearing on another’s burdens. The “saved by grace through faith” are exhorted to love the brethren.Good works may demonstrate the faith through which God justified the ungodly (Rom. 4:5), but God “reckons righteousness to the ungoldy apart from works” (Rom. 4:6).

hi guys, wow you are making things way complicated. no one would be in heaven if they had to know all the stuff you guys spout off. dont letme stop you. i love reading all this stuff.

 

[johnpaul87]

But many Jews clearly came to believe that “law” requires payment.

A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. (Rom 4:4)

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

"Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?" (Rom 11:35)

Nice summary.

James is clearly states: See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. The word justified in (James 2:24) is the same word Paul uses for justification in (Rom. 4:3) in regard to Abraham. You cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James unless you argue Paul wasn’t in Romans either.

Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and good works” act together.

Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Paul accepts the works performed under God’s grace which lead to justification and eternal life.

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works. . . But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. . . For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:7,10,13)

Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in (Gal 6:2), not “works of the law.”

Scripture doesn’t say God justifies by faith alone. Faith and good works must be together.

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:17-26)

hi guys.isnt the point of all this is to go to heaven? either youre saved or not. all the blahblah is useless. but dont stop, its great intertainment. the angels wish to see this but cant. so im blessed that i can see all this apostasy. it was predicted of old, and now i get to see it. how wonderful

 

[johnpaul87]

Define your “bull’s eye.”

hi moon, its all about christ and him crucified. but you guys have all this things to do list. tons of blah blah and more madness. hey, dont letme stop you. i love watching it. im seeing endtime prophesy fullfilled. jesus said that there will be wolves in sheeps clothing. that means men in godly clothing acting like wolves. do you know of any men who wear godly clothing who act like ravenous wolves? do you? think hard.men in godly clothing? acting as wolves? jesus said, by their fruits ye shall know them.