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ryanoneil
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I pray for her and encourage her every day.
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sodak
Guest
God trancends time. He did actually die on the cross, and he is not re-crucified. The Mass connects to Jesus’s sacrifice across time.
You can’t place limits on God like that. God is everywhere, always. We might not be able to understand it yet, but I suspect in Heaven we will.
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Howie01
Guest
I’ve read that article before, Ryan, in it is stated the extent of the doctrine of regeneration: “In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace.”
So Catholic regeneration means the sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. That’s why I said the CC doctrine of regeneration is underdeveloped, and I’m kind in saying that. It’s no wonder you believe one can lose salvation.
I also said perseverance is part and parcel of regeneration/justification/salvation.
Except what you’re beating is not a dead horse, and you’re not beating, but scoffing.
No, that’s the bad news, from which the good news promises deliverance. And that is the Catholic position—in Catholic predestination, God predestines to hell on the basis of foreseen demerit, just as Calvinist predestination states. Had God not elected some, all would perish.
By works and perseverance.
Rom 3:20; Eph 2:8-9.
I’m much more able to defend what I believe, than you’re able to defend what you believe.
That’s not what reformed theology teaches, Ryan. So as far as your wife being “agnostic” in the strict definition, I’d have to agree with you, she’s without knowledge. My granddaughter is almost 7; she has a great deal of scriptural knowledge, and she claims to love Christ, but only time will tell.
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AmbroseSJ
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How odd Howie, that in your private judgment, you can seemingly pass judgment on the teachings of the infallible Church of Christ. Where does your theology come from? An infallible Church? No, just your own, and the private judgment of other like minded sectaries. Why would you even argue with the Church? Shouldn’t you respect our own private judgment too? What makes your judgment superior? Do you yourself possess infallibility? How do you presume to tell anyone what to think, or how to interpret Scriptures?? You have no authority, no infallibility, nor even good arguments from Scripture. You are a bankrupt criticizing the church’s poverty.
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moondweller
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But the sacrifice of Christ is not timeless. It began and finished in our time, space continuum.
But you can a material body.
But a material body is not. Jesus is the Son incarnated a man; not a man incarnated God.
One need not wait for heaven to understand it. Even in heaven a material body can be in only one place at one time. That’s just a fact based on creation. In fact, that truth is applied to any created being (spirit or material). Omnipresence is a Divine attribute only. In theology it’s called incommunicable.
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ryanoneil
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The re-sacrificing of Christ is impossible as you have pointed out.
So, how can the *real material blood *of Jesus, poured out on the cross, be applied to you 2,000 years after the fact?
It can only be in one place and time after all.
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moondweller
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The real material blood of Jesus is not applied, physically, to me (or anyone). There’s no reason for it.
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ryanoneil
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OK. All you are saying is that you don’t believe it.I’ve read that article before, Ryan, in it is stated the extent of the doctrine of regeneration: “In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace.”
So Catholic regeneration means the sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. That’s why I said the CC doctrine of regeneration is underdeveloped, and I’m kind in saying that. It’s no wonder you believe one can lose salvation.
So what does regeneration mean in your doctrine?
You are talking about the Molinist system which I am free to reject. I prefer Thomism. Molina came up with this system because he didn’t understand St. Thomas’ teaching in light of 1Tim 2:4, where Paul reveals that God desires “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Molina thought St. Thomas was teaching determinism but he was mistaken.
That sound alot like the Catholic position, but I know we are speaking a different language.
I know that is not what reformed theology teaches. It sure sounds that way though. It doesn’t make sense when someone says “their salvation is assured” on the one hand and “only time [and works and perseverance] will tell” on the other.
I’m sorry for scoffing.
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ryanoneil
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What is then?
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moondweller
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Based on divine revelation:Rom 5:9 “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him.”
Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace”
Col 1:20 “…and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven.”
Heb 9:12 “…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”
Rev 1:5 "…and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood"What’s applied is all that the shedding of His sacrificial blood on the cross accomplished. To name a few, based on the verses above: our justification, the release and forgiveness of our sins, our eternal redemption, reconciliation and peace with God. These are applied to the sinner, in full, at the time of personal belief in Christ - according to the Scriptures.
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moondweller
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But Jesus didn’t fulfill ALL the prophecies concerning Him recorded in the Psalms and prophets. There are many yet to be fulfilled prior to and at His second advent. There’s a difference between the “Old Covenant” (Mosaic Law) and the “Old Testament” writings.
When Jesus said “It is finished,” it was said in reference to His redemptive work on the cross.
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Howie01
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What comes through in your post, Ambrose, is your great disdain for all private judgment, except, of course, your own fallible private judgment, and, IMO, the private judgment of the fallible church fathers, and, also IMO, the private judgment of a fallible magisterium.
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AmbroseSJ
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How does that prove your private judgment is any better?What comes through in your post, Ambrose, is your great disdain for all private judgment, except, of course, your own fallible private judgment, and, IMO, the private judgment of the fallible church fathers, and, also IMO, the private judgment of a fallible magisterium.
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mbrislawn
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mbrislawn
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That’s right, Jesus is in His material body at the right hand of the Father, so that is His one place. We will also have material resurrected bodies that can be only in one place at one time. Therefore, we may have to wait in line ten thousand years to see Jesus!
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SHW
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It did fulfill all of the Scriptures concerning His redemptive work on the earth in His earthly human body: His birth, life, death on the “cross,” resurrection, and ascension; because they can never be repeated since He now sits at His Father’s right hand. However, it did not fulfill Malachi 1:11 because it is being fulfilled right now just as Jesus stated at His Last Supper: “Do this in remembrance for me” for the “remission of sins.”
OT Scriptures about the Remnant returning also have not been fulfilled because the Jews have not returned yet, etc.
This Scripture of the Old Testament is being fulfilled right now:
Malachi 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down,
My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name,
And a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations,”
Says the LORD of hosts.”
Right now, this Scripture is being fulfilled in every Catholic Mass. Notice that incense and a pure offering (Himself, since there is only one “pure” offering that can offered to the Father in His name) shall be offered to His name in every nation every day.
It really does not matter to us whether you believe it or not, except for Christian charity, of course. Truth is truth and it is not changed because one or more persons choose to not believe it. It should matter to you, however since it concerns your relationship with God.
John 6:53 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”
Since Jesus said this, I believe it. Literally.
Pax,
SHW
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Howie01
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I’ll toss that same question back to you, Ambrose.
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AmbroseSJ
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The difference is I don’t rely on my own private judgment! I rely on an infallible Church. That’s quite a different footing.I’ll toss that same question back to you, Ambrose.
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Howie01
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Please explain to me, Ambrose, how it is you’ve come to understand the RCC to be in possession of all truth, infallibily, while at the same time not employing the use of any of your own private judgment concerning scripture, history, and church self-proclamations, in arriving at your conclusions. :ehh:The difference is I don’t rely on my own private judgment! I rely on an infallible Church. That’s quite a different footing.
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Howie01
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I don’t believe in baptismal regeneration.
Here’s a short essay dealing with regeneration, in the ordo salutis.
Determinism is impossible with a God who is purposeful.
Of course. I’m certain you don’t agree with that phrase from Luther.
I know it makes no sense to you.
Don’t worry about it.
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