What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[ryanoneil]

That is so true! Jesus is speaking of His Second Coming.

I absolutely agree. What you are describing is the second of the (2) senses I was talking about. In the first sense, Jesus was describing the end of the Old Covenant Age in 70 A.D. In other words, Jesus was describing events that were going to happen within a generation to prefigure and explain the end of the the Church Age at His Second Coming.

So, this is what He was describing in the first sense.
As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

This happened when Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. The “Ancient of Days” is God the Father. The “Son of man” is Jesus. This is what Jesus refered to during His trial before the Sanhedrin.

Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mat 26:64)

The “Son of man” comes to the “Ancient of Days” and is presented before Him. This is when the Son is traveling to the Father in Heaven for the ceremonial bestowal of His Kingdom. This does not describe the coming of the Son of man back to earth at all! Rather, this prophecy describes the time when Jesus is recognized as the victor over sin because of the Cross.

But Jesus extended Daniel’s event in Heaven to include another earthly event the the Sanhedrin could witness. Since the Sanhedrin did not view Christ’s Ascension, He must have been refering to another event they would “see”. In other words the event happened in their lifetime, because they have been extinct for thousands of years.

So what could it be? The cloud clearly signifies the power and the glory of God. The Lord appeared in the cloud in the wilderness (Exod 16:10)and when God gave the Law to Moses (Exod 34:5). His cloud appeared to descend on the tabernacle Moses had built (Exod 40:34-38) and God specifically warned about going behind the veil in the sanctuary.

"Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat." (Lev 16:2) In this case mercy is tied to judgment and the cloud signifies the glory of God the Judge.

In the case of the Temple and Sanhedrin “coming on the clouds” is coming and victory, and most of all, in judgement. God was “riding on a swift cloud to Egypt” in (Isa 19:1-2). His judgment of the false idols was fulfilled in (Isa 20:1-6). Did he show up physically? No! God’s judgment came in the form of the Assyrian army’s killing, pillaging, and conquering the Egyptians. Do you see where I’m going with this?

The only one event that occurred during the generation of the Sanhedrin, that would show them that the Christ was their Judge, was the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 A.D. - instigated by Nero (the little horn) and the Roman army. It was a public judgment that clearly proved to all mankind that Jesus was the victor in Heaven over His enemies on earth. No other event created the instantaneous, worldwide publicity necessary to illustrate to the Sanhedrin that Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father. Just as God judged Egypt with the Assyrian army, Christ judged Jerusalem with the Roman army.

I am NOT saying this first sense is the Second Coming of Christ. This verse is connected to the first advent of Jesus. Daniel was looking forward to the Messiah’s arrival not past it. What Jesus is describing is a prefigurement of His Second Coming (which I’ll comment on soon).

 

[moondweller]

These verses confirm that Jesus is the messianic heir who sits on the throne of David and rules over His restored kingdom

Acts 2:22-36

Acts 13:22-37

After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me. Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name. The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written: 'After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again, so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. (Acts 15:13-17)

Both Acts 2:22-36 and 13:22-37 are confirming Christ’s bodily resurrection, not establishing His Kingdom. It’s not a kingdom message the Apostles were preaching but a FAITH message in the One who was risen and did not undergo decay;"…through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon {you:} ‘BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.’"As for Acts 15:13-17, it’s actually giving us the chronology of God’s plan for the church Christ is presently building and national Israel AFTER the church is built and taken up to be with her Bridegroom. James said:Acts 15:14 “Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.He’s referring to "the fullness of the Gentiles” Paul mentions in Rom. 11:25. That is, the number of Gentiles that will come into the church Christ is presently building through the Holy Spirit while on His Father’s throne in heaven (the contextual issue in Acts 15 was how Jews in the church were to respond to the Gentiles being called into it). Then James quotes the prophet Amos, but changes his words slightly from “in that day” to “AFTER THESE THINGS.” What things? The bringing in of the Gentiles into the church: “The fullness of the Gentiles.” IOW, AFTER the church is completed Christ will return (to this earth) then, says the Lord:"I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name., says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago."James is saying that according to the ancient Jewish prophets AFTER the church is built THEN the Lord will rebuild the fallen, governing house (tent) of David which fell. A direct reference to the promised, earthly, Millennial Kingdom over which Jesus, the Son of David, will rule (fulfilling the unconditional, Davidic covenant and what the angel Gabriel said to Mary at the Annunciation in Lk. 1 32-33). This passage is about RE-building, not building. Presently Christ is building His church, not RE-building it.

Read Amos in context where he describes this earthly Kingdom which Christ, the Son of David, will return and over which He will rule. Amos says:Amos 9:11 “In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name,” Declares the LORD who does this. Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, “When the plowman will overtake the reaper And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; When the mountains will drip sweet wine And all the hills will be dissolved. Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live {in them;} They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them,” Says the LORD your God."This prophecy is yet to be fulfilled AFTER this church age, and James confirms it.

He’s concluding that in the future Millennial Kingdom Gentiles will come into the Kingdom as Gentiles (not converted Jews), hence, in the church, as well, they are to come in as Gentiles, not converted Jews.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus had just finished speaking to them about the kingdom over forty day and He said the exact opposite of a literal earthly kingdom in the Gospel account. I suggest you re-read Matthew chapter 13.

I suggest you read this short article on The Seven Parables of Matthew 13. You might find it quite interesting, if not enlightening.

 

[SHW]

I suggest you read this short article on The Seven Parables of Matthew 13 . You might find it quite interesting, if not enlightening.

Hi MD,

Regarding The Seven Parables of Matthew 13:

Excerpt:
“Contrary to the teaching of the Amillenarian and the Postmillenarian, this present age is not the Millennial Kingdom which Jesus, the rightful heir to the Dividic throne (Lk. 1:32-33), will establish at His Second Advent, a glorious Kingdom predicated to universal peace and righteousness on earth (Zech. 14:9). It is instead an age when the King is absent and the righteous (good soil, wheat, small mustard seed, meal, good fish) and the wicked (bad soil, tares, birds, leaven, bad fish) are allowed to exist together. A time when Christ is calling out a Church (His Body/Bride) from amongst unbelieving Jews and Gentiles in this present world (cosmos), and a time of anticipation for the revealing of God’s hidden “treasure” (national Israel) at the end of the age.”

It is enlightening in that it proves that Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine since the author privately interprets prophecy Scripture in Zechariah et al incorrectly since he has not been taught by the one and only Church that was entrusted with guarding Scripture and Its meaning (interpretation) by Jesus Himself. (Luke 10:16)

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private (individual) interpretation,”

2 Timothy 4:3-5 “For the time will come when** they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables**. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

2 Peter 3:15-16 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Unless you are taught by the legitimate successors of Peter and the Apostles, then you are unstable as to what truth actually is and so therefore you teach fables because you as individuals misinterpret prophecy Scripture. This individual interpretation of prophecy Scripture is forbidden by Scripture.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

You would have (Luke 1:32-33) read “I am here to announce the birth of God’s son Jesus and nothing else about His time here. But, I will mention that thousands of years from now He will fulfill everything that the prophets said about Him.”

Both Acts 2:22-36 and 13:22-37 are confirming Christ’s bodily resurrection, not establishing His Kingdom. It’s not a kingdom message the Apostles were preaching but a FAITH message in the One who was risen and did not undergo decay

Christ’s bodily resurrection IS the kingdom message. David was not looking past Christ’s incarnation to His Second Coming thousands of years later.

But since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption. (Acts 2:30-31)

(Acts 13:32-35) speaks in plain language and says the exact opposite of what you are saying.

We ourselves are proclaiming this good news to you that what God promised our ancestors he has brought to fulfillment for us, (their) children, by raising up Jesus, as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son; this day I have begotten you.’ And that he raised him from the dead never to return to corruption he declared in this way, ‘I shall give you the benefits assured to David.’ That is why he also says in another psalm, 'You will not suffer your holy one to see corruption.'

Paul is citing Psalm 2:7-8 to explain how the rising of Jesus fulfills Yahweh’s oath to give one of David’s descendants everlasting dominion over Israel and the world. It doesn’t say “We are proclaiming the good news that what God promised WILL BE brought to fulfillment thousands of years from now.”

He’s referring to “the fullness of the Gentiles” Paul mentions in Rom. 11:25. That is, the number of Gentiles that will come into the church Christ is presently building through the Holy Spirit while on His Father’s throne in heaven (the contextual issue in Acts 15 was how Jews in the church were to respond to the Gentiles being called into it). Then James quotes the prophet Amos, but changes his words slightly from “in that day” to “AFTER THESE THINGS.” What things? The bringing in of the Gentiles into the church: “The fullness of the Gentiles.” IOW, AFTER the church is completed Christ will return (to this earth) then, says the Lord:

I don’t disagree they are talking about the Gentiles being called into the Church, but they are not looking forward to ‘the fullness of the Gentiles’ thousands of years in the future. They are talking about fulfillment in their time, and James is citing three prophets.

The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written: (Acts 15:15)

The first line alludes to (Jer 12:15) and is not Amos being changed. The middle comes from (Amos 9:11-12) and the last line alludes to (Is 45:21). They all envision Yahweh gathering the Gentiles into his covenant family in the messianic age, and if you read the entire chapter of all three, you’ll notice this happens while the Lord is destroying sinful Israel (in order to renew it). All of this was intially fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple which prefigured Christ’s Second Coming.

He’s concluding that in the future Millennial Kingdom Gentiles will come into the Kingdom as Gentiles (not converted Jews), hence, in the church, as well, they are to come in as Gentiles, not converted Jews.

You are making two kingdoms and two people were there is only one.

 

[ryanoneil]

I suggest you read this short article on The Seven Parables of Matthew 13 . You might find it quite interesting, if not enlightening.

We agree on some areas of that interpretation except for the dispensational aspects.

 

[ryanoneil]

(continued)

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mat 24:34)

Was Jesus mistaken? NO!

He was predicting the demise of the Jerusalem Temple- the architectural symbol of the Old Covenant.

He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” (Mat 24:2)

Jesus was speaking in apocalyptic language: Cosmic upheavals like national warfare (24:6-7), earthly catastrophes (24:7-8), the darkening of the sun and moon (24:29), and stars falling out of the sky. The Israelites regarded their Temple as a miniature replica of the world, and an architectural model of the universe fashioned by God. The universe itself was a macrotemple where God also dwells with His people.

He built his shrine like the heavens, like the earth which he founded forever. (Ps 78:69)

With the dawning of the New Covenant, God had to clear away the central symbol of the Old Covenant, the Temple. The Church is God’s new and spiritual Temple, built with living stones of Christian believers. In this light, the devastation of the Temple and the judgment of Israel in 70 A.D. can be seen as a prefigurement of greater things. The termination of the Old Covenant world prefigures the diestruction of the universe, God’s macrotemple, and the judgment of all nations by Christ. So, Jesus’ Olivet Discourse is initially fulfilled in the first century as he said. But imbedded in Christ’s words are the spiritual truths that point forward to his Second Coming in glory and the end of the visible world.

 

[moondweller]

2 Peter 3:15-16 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Unless you are taught by the legitimate successors of Peter and the Apostles, then you are unstable as to what truth actually is and so therefore you teach fables because you as individuals misinterpret prophecy Scripture. This individual interpretation of prophecy Scripture is forbidden by Scripture.

First of all Peter is not prohibiting anyone to personally interpret Scripture; nor is he saying that by doing so one seals his own destruction. Secondly, nowhere do the Scriptures reveal any such thing as the “legitimate successors of Peter and the Apostles” who must interpret the Scriptures for everyone else. The Epistles were not written to individual men only to be interpreted by them. Peter is however recognizing Paul’s Epistles as thropneustos Scripture and that in them “some” (not all) things are hard to understand which the untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction. It’s to their own destruction because they never come to the truth of the gospel of God’s grace through the Person and work of Jesus Christ and, therefore, they never truly believe (and they take many with them).

 

[moondweller]

ryanoneil:

Christ’s bodily resurrection IS the kingdom message. David was not looking past Christ’s incarnation to His Second Coming thousands of years later.

Christ’s bodily resurrection is the salvation message during this church age:Rom 4:23 - 5:2 “Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”

Paul is citing Psalm 2:7-8 to explain how the rising of Jesus fulfills Yahweh’s oath to give one of David’s descendants everlasting dominion over Israel and the world. It doesn’t say “We are proclaiming the good news that what God promised WILL BE brought to fulfillment thousands of years from now.”

The Apostles were not sent out as proclaimers of the Messianic Kingdom, but to be eyewitnesses of Christ’s bodily resurrection. It was a gospel of salvation not a gospel of a Kingdom which they took to the world and is recorded in the Book of Acts and the Epistles.

The Epistles were written to the church Christ is presently building. In them the church is identified as the Body and Bride of Christ, not the subjects of His Messianic Kingdom rule. Can you show me in the Epistles where Jesus is called “King of the church?” Instead all believers who make up Christ’s church are a heaven-bound people in which they have a citizenship and from which they eagerly wait for their Savior who will transform the body of their humble state into conformity with the body of His glory (Phil. 3:20-21). In contrast, the predicted Messianic Kingdom over which the risen Christ will return and rule is described in the prophecies that reveal it as very earthly, not heavenly. It is, in fact, the foremost reason Jesus must returns to this earth. It is, in fact, one of the reason for which He was born. Otherwise there would really be no reason for Him to return.

You are making two kingdoms and two people where there is only one.

The Scriptures speak of only one church Christ is presently building through the Holy Spirit while on His Father’s throne in heaven. And also only one Kingdom which is yet to come and over which Christ, the Son of David, will rule and return to this earth to establish.Zech 8:1-8 "Then the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.’ Thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts {will be called} the Holy Mountain.’ Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Old men and old women will again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each man with his staff in his hand because of age. And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls playing in its streets.’ Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘If it is too difficult in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be too difficult in My sight?’ declares the LORD of hosts. Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; and I will bring them {back} and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.'This is an earthly scene, not a heavenly one.

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mat 24:34) Was Jesus mistaken? NO!

No, He’s not mistaken. But that generation of Jews has not seen the things He just previously described, including His return to this earth “after the tribulation of those days” (Matt. 24:29). Matthew chapter 24 is uniquely Jewish.

He was predicting the demise of the Jerusalem Temple- the architectural symbol of the Old Covenant.

Yes. This occurred in 70 A.D. It’s no mystery that He’s the Mediator of a new and better covenant in His blood. And after the destruction of the Temple the Jews were dispersed into the nations once again. But according to prophecy they’ll again return to the land and they, along with all the tribes of the earth, will see the King coming in the clouds (Matt. 24:29; Rev. 19:11 - 20:6), and through the Holy Spirit a Jewish remnant will see and believe (Zech. 12:10).

Now, if you want insight into what transpires “in that day,” read Zech. 14. You’ll see that “in that day” the Lord will be King over all the earth. But not until Christ returns to this earth will that prophecy be fulfilled and the earth filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the water covers the sea (Hab. 2:14).

The rest of your post goes off into a spiritualization of the prophetic Scriptures. IOW, you abandon what the Scriptures actually reveal and simply repeat the imaginations of other men. I have nothing to say about that. The literal Scriptures trump the fertile imaginations of men.

 

[SHW]

First of all Peter is not prohibiting anyone to personally interpret Scripture; nor is he saying that by doing so one seals his own destruction. Secondly, nowhere do the Scriptures reveal any such thing as the “legitimate successors of Peter and the Apostles” who must interpret the Scriptures for everyone else. The Epistles were not written to individual men only to be interpreted by them. Peter is however recognizing Paul’s Epistles as thropneustos Scripture and that in them “some” (not all) things are hard to understand which the untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction. It’s to their own destruction because they never come to the truth of the gospel of God’s grace through the Person and work of Jesus Christ and, therefore, they never truly believe (and they take many with them).

Hi MD,

Peter is prohibiting persons from individually interpreting prophecy Scripture when it does not agree with the Church’s teachings. It was a known fact that the true members of Christ’s Church obeyed the Apostles in their teachings. They also obeyed all of their successors (such as Timothy and Titus who become bishops by the laying on of hands: Sacrament of Holy Orders).

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,”

2 Timothy 1:13-16, 2 Timothy 2:1-4 "13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; … 1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.”

Why must we listen to our Church leaders? Because they keep us from heresies.

Titus 2:13 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

This is “apostolic succession” in action. They have Jesus’ authority on earth, which was given to them by Jesus, and it will continue until He returns.

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Hebrews 13:7 “Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.”

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

The Church is a hierarchy put in place by Jesus. It has bishops/priests, priests/elders, and deacons in its hierarchy.

Why must we listen only to the Pope and the Magisterium in matters of faith and morals? Because if we don’t, then we will be mislead by heretics.

2 Peter 2:1 “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.”

If you deny His Church and its authority, then you are actually denying/rejecting Him.

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

It really does not need to be any plainer than this. Those with “itching ears” do not choose to listen however.

Acts 20:28-30 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.”(i.e. “faith alone” and “scripture alone” by Martin Luther, “predestination” by Calvin, etc.)

Wolves came in among them and drew many others out after them. They are heretics according to Paul. These heretics made “new” religions. Jesus promised to never abandon His Church and since He did this, the true pope and magisterium who are in communion with him, cannot possibly ever teach error or else that would make Jesus a liar since He said that He would be with His Church unto to end of the age (until He returns for the remainder of His kingdom at His Second Coming).

2 Timothy 4:2-4 “Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”

“Scripture Alone” adherents, with their many thousands of denominations due to their “own” doctrines derived from their “own” private interpretations of Scripture, is proof that this time has come and we are indeed living in it right now.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

… It’s to their own destruction because they never come to the truth of the gospel of God’s grace through the Person and work of Jesus Christ and, therefore, they never truly believe (and they take many with them).

Hi MD,

You have made a profound statement in that they “never come to the truth” of the gospel.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

What exactly does “believes” in Him mean?

Does it mean that all we have to do to have everlasting life is to “think” or “know” that He exists?

James says that even the demons believe in God, yet demons are not going to inherit eternal life. So it takes more than acknowledging that He exists in order to be saved.

James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

So, it takes more than just believing that He exists. It also takes “works” in order to inherit eternal life.

We have to “believe in Him.”

Does this mean that we must “accept Jesus as our personal Savior?” I can’t find that in Scripture. We become His disciples through baptism.

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

So, the first step towards inheriting eternal life is to become baptized “into” Christ. This action shows our “faith” in Jesus because we “obey” His command to become baptized. If we do not become baptized, then we show that we do not believe in His Word because we did not obey His command to be baptized. (Acts 10:48)

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Those who do not believe are not baptized, and so they are condemned for not believing in Jesus’ Word (gospel).

Jesus states:
John 8:51 “Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

Matthew 19:16-17 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So in order to actually “believe in Him” we must also obey/keep His commandments.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

“Obeying/keeping” and “believing” are inseparable.

Hebrews 3:18-19 “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

If you do not obey Jesus’ commands, then you are an unbeliever. If you do obey, then you are a believer.

Hebrews 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Paul tells his readers that they “put on” Christ when they were baptized. They are now obliged to do the good works which God prepared for them to do. The word “should” in this context means “obligation.” It is a reasonable demand since God sent His only begotten Son to redeem them and His Word humbled Himself and became Man (Jesus) so that He could do the Will of His Father in heaven which was to redeem mankind. They now need to obey His commandments and do the good works that He has appointed for them to do if they desire to inherit eternal life. They must “do” the will of His Father in heaven.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

1 John 2:3-4 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

1 Corinthians 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

Jesus states that those who do not keep/obey His commandments are liars. He states that they do not know Him and that they do not love Him unless they keep His commandments.

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Paul speaks for Jesus. He has this authority in Jesus’ Church because He is a bishop of this Church.

The “truth of the gospel” is that you cannot inherit eternal life (after you are baptized into Christ) unless you also continue to obey His commandments until you die. If you sin the sins that cause the death of the soul, then you must repent before death in order to inherit eternal life. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, Acts 5:1-11)

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 “Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

Hi MD,

You have made a profound statement in that they “never come to the truth” of the gospel.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

What exactly does “believes” in Him mean?

Does it mean that all we have to do to have everlasting life is to “think” or “know” that He exists?

Exists? Present tense? Yes. A present tense existence would assume the truth of His bodily resurrection. Salvation faith requires belief that He rose bodily from the dead on the third day.

James says that even the demons believe in God, yet demons are not going to inherit eternal life. So it takes more than acknowledging that He exists in order to be saved.

James is a Jew writing to Jews. He’s saying they believe “God is one,” so do the demons and shutter. This is said in the context of belief in monotheism vs. polytheism. Just belief in monotheism saves no one. Islam is monotheistic and there’s no eternal life in that religious belief.

James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

So, it takes more than just believing that He exists. It also takes “works” in order to inherit eternal life.

James isn’t talking about inheriting eternal life.

We have to “believe in Him.”

Does this mean that we must “accept Jesus as our personal Savior?” I can’t find that in Scripture.

Nor can I. But believing that I am saved through His sacrificial work on the cross on my behalf certainly is. This is the gospel message. Those who don’t believe are those who gravitate to works for salvation and rely on them for Divine justification. This is contrary to Paul’s teaching (gospel) in Rom. 4:5.

We become His disciples through baptism.

Actually, it’s those who believe in His Person and sacrificial work on their behalf that become His disciples. It’s these believing disciples who are then to be baptized by water (by necessity this would exclude infant baptism).

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not water (1 Cor. 12:13). Water doesn’t have the power.

So, the first step towards inheriting eternal life is to become baptized “into” Christ. This action shows our “faith” in Jesus because we “obey” His command to become baptized. If we do not become baptized, then we show that we do not believe in His Word because we did not obey His command to be baptized. (Acts 10:48)The command was to baptize those who believe. But salvation itself is based on belief in Christ, not the subsequent baptism:Acts 16:30-31 "…and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"Only AFTER he and his household believed were they baptized in water. Only the saved are to be water baptized.

Mark 16:16

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” " Those who do not believe are not baptized, and so they are condemned for not believing in Jesus’ Word (gospel).

Your interpretation is corrupt. It is those who ***believe ***that are to be baptized. The one who does not believe (note that baptism is left out since belief has not occurred) is condemned. BELIEF vs. unbelief is the emphasis, not water baptism.

Jesus states:
John 8:51 “Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

Matthew 19:16-17 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So in order to actually “believe in Him” we must also obey/keep His commandments.

AGAIN, your interpretation is corrupt. In Jn. 8:51 Jesus said “keeps My Word.” His Word is that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but HAVE eternal (everlasting) life (Jn. 3:14). Those who seek works instead don’t believe His Word concerning Him and consequently do not have eternal life.

Jesus was speaking to a Jew who was yet under the Mosaic Law when He said “keep THE commandments.” That’s the Commandments in the Mosaic Law which he was under as a rule of life (which included the Decalogue). But, ironically, those commandments were suppose to lead that Jew to Christ that he “may be justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24). The man’s question to Jesus demonstrated his unbelief in Him at that time.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."Yes, and those people were trying to enter the kingdom by the merits of their works. Jesus said, “I never knew you.”

Ephesians 2:10

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."Yes. It is those who first “have been saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, ******, a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9) that are THEN His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. But they’re not saved by those works. AGAIN, your interpretation is corrupt.

Well, you get the idea. You can force the Scriptures to say anything you want. That’s called torturing the Scriptures, which is what you’re doing in all of the above. Bottom line you’re preaching salvation by works which is contrary to the written Word of God. You continue to confound grace and works. This is called “Galatianism.”

 

[SHW]

This is the gospel message. Those who don’t believe are those who gravitate to works for salvation and rely on them for Divine justification.

It’s these believing disciples who are then to be baptized by water (by necessity this would exclude infant baptism).This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not water.

In Jn. 8:51 Jesus said “keeps My Word.” His Word is that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but HAVE eternal (everlasting) life (Jn. 3:14). Those who seek works instead don’t believe His Word concerning Him and consequently do not have eternal life.

Hi MD,

“Good Works” show “proof” of faith. “Good Works” are not a “substitute” for faith. Faith comes first, good works must follow. So, if you do not do good works after you are baptized, then you really never believed in the first place. And if you commit serious sins that lead to death after you are baptized, then you have become an unbeliever because you did not obey His commandments. Believing in Christ means to obey Him. You cannot separate the two.

Paul states that all the things that he writes to the churches are the commands of Jesus. He speaks for Jesus.

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Jesus stated: “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17 He even gave examples of the commandments He was talking about: "18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

It doesn’t get any plainer than this direct quote from the Master Himself. He didn’t change His mind about this command after His death and resurrection and ascension.

Instead of having to follow the dietary laws, the sabbath laws, and the animal sacrificial laws of the OT, Jesus in His New Covenant institutes a Church in order to bring His gospel to mankind. Everything in His gospel are His commands. His gospel is the “law of love.”

Galatians 5:14 “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:29-31 "Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Galatians 5:6-8 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”

Hebrews 10:36-39 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “ For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

“Those who believe to the saving of the soul” are those who do the will of God until they die in His grace (until the saving of the soul). We do not receive the promise of eternal life unless we endure in our faith doing the will of God until our deaths. If we do not do His will, then our souls will go to “perdition” or hellfire just as if we were never justified at all.

James stated that faith without works is dead. Nothing “dead” can save you. If Jesus merely died on the cross for us and did not rise again to life and ascend into heaven, then He would not have been able to save us either. It is the Spirit who gives “life.”

When we are baptized, our souls are washed clean from sin and the Holy Spirit moves into our souls to dwell there. The Spirit gives us spiritual life when He resides within our souls. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18) Jesus uses the Sacrament of Baptism to sanctify our souls so that we may one day inherit eternal life.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” This is describing Baptism.

Acts 16:30-33 “And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

Since all of his whole household were baptized, then children and babies were also baptized. They were all baptized because baptism removes Original Sin from everyone’s souls, both adult and child.

Baptized Christians deny the faith in many ways. And if they do not repent before death, then they will not be saved.

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

Matthew 18:34-35 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

1 John 2:3 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”

If you do not keep His commandments, then He will not know you on Judgment Day.

Matthew 7:22-24 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! (commit sin)’”

Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

regarding St.Mattew 7:22-24…one should note the things that are not mentioned by those who the Lord does not know,we fed the hungry,we clothed the naked,we gave alms,we repented,we did penance,…basically those whom did NO good works are the ones that the Lord says “I do not know you”…

 

[SHW]

regarding St.Mattew 7:22-24…one should note the things that are not mentioned by those who the Lord does not know,we fed the hungry,we clothed the naked,we gave alms,we repented,we did penance,…basically those whom did NO good works are the ones that the Lord says “I do not know you”…

Hi

Yes. And in Matthew 7:19-21 Jesus states, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!”

Doing good works and obeying God’s commandments are both necessary in order to inherit eternal life. “Practicing lawlessness” means “committing sin.” So those who commit sin and who have not repented before death are not saved on Judgment Day. The Ten Commandments are not the “Ten Suggestions.”

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

We were created for good works according to Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

“Should” is not just a suggestion. If we desire to enter eternal life, then we must do good works. In order to do God’s will (the will of the Father), we must do good works. We cannot enter into eternal life unless we do the will of His Father in heaven. He prepared good works for us to do and we must do them in order to inherit eternal life. (Matthew 7:21)

Titus 3:7 "that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

First, Jesus justifies us through the Sacrament of Baptism. (1 Corinthians 6:11, John 3:3-8, Ephesians 5:26, Titus 3:4-7) It is a free gift of His grace. This free gift gives us “hope of eternal life.” We realize our “hope” only after we continued in the faith, did good works and obeyed God’s commandments to the end of our lives. By doing these things, we prove our love for God because we fulfilled His Will for us. When we are found still “abiding in” Christ at our deaths, then we inherit eternal life. We are “approved” for eternal life and we inherit our crowns.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation (trials); for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

1 Timothy 6:18-19 “Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”

If we do not do good works, then we do not continue to hold on to our justification which we received at our baptisms.

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

We deny God when we are disobedient to His Church. (Luke 10:16) We deny God when we disobey His commandments. (2 Peter 2:21, 1 John 2:3-5) We deny God when we refuse to do good works. (Revelation 3:15-16)

Titus 2:13-15 “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

Jesus redeems us and then expects us to be zealous for good works if we desire to inherit eternal life.

Titus 3:8 “This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.”

Titus 3:14 “And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.”

Good works are profitable in that they help us to actually maintain our original justification which was a free gift of grace given to us by Jesus Christ through baptism. If we fail to do good works, then we are unfruitful and we will not inherit eternal life.

Matthew 7:19-21 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

James 2:24 “You see then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Revelation 3:1-3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”

Revelation 20:11-13 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.** And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books**. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.”

We are judged by our “works” on Judgment Day. We are not judged by “faith alone” on Judgment Day.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

We are judged by our “works” on Judgment Day. We are not judged by “faith alone” on Judgment Day.

John 3:17-18 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"One man has rightly said:"The reason God hates your trust in your “good works” is, that you offer them to Him instead of resting on the all-glorious work of His Son for you at the cross. Reflect:

1. What it cost God to give Christ.

2. What it cost Christ to put away sin,–your sin, at the cross.

3. What honor God has given Him “because of the suffering of death.”

4. What plans for the future God has arranged through Christ’s having made peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile “things upon the earth and things in the heavens, unto Himself.” Now, by that uneasiness of conscience on account of which you keep doing “dead works,” you neglect all God is, has done, and desires, for you; and substitute your own uncertain, fearful, trifling notions of “works that shall please God.” You would make God come to your terms, instead of gladly accepting His great salvation and resting in the finished work of Christ.

It is ominously bold presumption, when God is calling all to behold His Lamb, to be found asking God to behold your goodness, your works!" (W.R. Newell)

 

[SHW]

John 3:17-18 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

The reason God hates your trust in your “good works” is, that you offer them to Him instead of resting on the all-glorious work of His Son for you at the cross.
​

Hi MD,

He who “believes” in Him also “abides” (remains) in Him until death in order to inherit eternal life; and if he sins after his redemption, then he repents before death in order to inherit eternal life.

Yes, Jesus redeemed us by grace alone. But, this is not the end of the story. This is the part that you are having trouble understanding. It is true that no works can redeem us from Original Sin which we inherited from Adam. (Romans 5)

But, AFTER our redemption and initial justification, we must maintain our justification by imitating Christ which is to do the Will of His Father in heaven. The Will of His Father in heaven is that we obey His commandments and produce good fruits/works/deeds. You cannot negate this part of the gospel. It is just as true as our belief that Jesus redeems us by grace alone. You are misinterpreting “faith” to mean “faith alone.” You are misinterpreting “works” to mean “works can never justify.” Both of these are false assumptions.

John 3:17-21 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

He who “believes” in Him is not “judged” means that after he is redeemed, he inherits eternal life and not damnation because his deeds/works done in God are good and not evil. We must be “doers of the word, and not hearers only.”

James 1:21-22 “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
**
No one** is left out of this judgment on Judgment Day. We are judged by our works as proof of our faith.

You cannot separate faith and works. First, we are redeemed and justified by grace alone through Baptism. (Jesus died for all men and Baptism washes away all sins.) But, in order to continue in this justification and receive the promise of eternal of life, we must do the will of the Father in heaven.

Romans 5:1-5 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2** through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.** 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

We have access through Baptism (faith) into this grace in which we stand. However, we must remain standing in this grace until death in order to realize our hope of eternal life. Tribulations perfect our faith. We cannot enter heaven until we are perfected either here on earth or in purgatory. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven.

Romans 5:8-12 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”

How are we much more saved by His life? We must imitate Him in doing the Will of His Father in heaven in order to inherit eternal life. It is not faith alone. Scripture explicitly states:

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Romans 12:2 “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”

2 Corinthians 7:1 " Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Colossians 3:14 “But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.”

Colossians 4:12 “Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”

1 Thessalonians 3:9-11 " For what thanks can we render to God for you, for all the joy with which we rejoice for your sake before our God, 10 night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face and perfect what is lacking in your faith? 11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

“Faith alone” is not Scriptural.

Pax,
SHW​

 

[fbl9]

It is ominously bold presumption, when God is calling all to behold His Lamb, to be found asking God to behold your goodness, your works!" (W.R. Newell)[/indent]

and it is equally presumptious to say that catholics are asking this of God…

 

[moondweller]

and it is equally presumptious to say that catholics are asking this of God…

Not if you agree with SHW’s post. According to him your future salvation will be determined on works other than Christ’s once for all sacrificial work on the cross. It’s not presumptuous when Catholics insert the word “initial” in front of “salvation” or “justification” or “redemption” or reconciliation" or even “eternal,” as in “initial” eternal life. Pending something else to be done.

The inserted word “initial” prohibits the Catholic from ever resting on the all-glorious work of God’s Son for him at the cross - which rest amounts to FAITH through which BY GRACE God saves, giftwise (Gr. dorean, without-a-cause), i.e., “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

You see, true salvation faith doesn’t lead to a life of works in hopes to be saved. Although faith does lead the believer to a life of trusting God to work in his life, faith isn’t trust. Faith is simply the acceptance for one’s self the testimony God has given concerning His Son as true. Such faith is not “trusting” or “expecting God to do something,” but rather a daily “walk by faith” (2 Cor. 5:7) in His testimony concerning the Person of Christ and His “finished” work on the cross for us (1 Jn. 5:9-13).

After saving faith the life of trust begins. A spiritual man understands this.

Here’s the fundamental difference between “faith” and “trust.” “Trust” is always looking forward to what God will (or might) do. For instance, the Catholic trusting Him to, at the end of his life, judge him worthy of salvation through his works. But true salvation faith sees that what God says has been DONE; and a true man of faith BELIEVES God’s Word having the inward conviction that is it true, and true for himself.

For this reason Paul says at the beginning of his letter to the believers at Rome:Rom 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith."Not trusting that God might do something, but believing that He HAS, once for all, in the Person and work of His beloved Son.

This is what Paul and his companions meant when they said to the Philippian jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” Believe that His work is the work of salvation, and His work is DONE. Salvation faith need not “trust” God to do anything else for our salvation, it simply believes what He has DONE.

 

[BRB1]

For this reason Paul says at the beginning of his letter to the believers at Rome:

Rom 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. DONE.
​

Yes, but what of those converts who much later in life lose/renounce their belief ?

Destroys your OSAS ideas.​