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moondweller
Guest
To understand the N.T. one must grasp the distinction between Law and Grace, works and faith.
God’s justice was met, once for all, at Calvary by the sacrificial death of His beloved Son. The Divine verdict was:Rom 3:9-24 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE…for all sinned and (continually) fall short of the glory of God,"The Divine remedy:Rom 3:24 "…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"His redemptive work is applied, in full, at the time of belief in Him. As Paul writes regarding believers:Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.”
Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."As for Abraham it’s clearly stated in both the Old and New Testaments:Gen 15:6 “Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:1-5 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, ***but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly (just like Abraham) ***, his faith is credited as righteousness,"The Divine conclusion according to the Scriptures:Rom 4:22 - 5:2 Therefore it (his faith) was credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it (his faith) was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it (faith) will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."You must also differentiate the eternal difference between that which is written about believers and that which is written about unbelievers. The former (it is written) are not under law but “under grace;” the latter in unbelief remain “under sin” (cf. Jn. 8:24), the state of the unredeemed.
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ncgolf
Guest
John shows that these are not distinct … they are all interconnected. Works and faith are the 2 commandments … believe in the Lord Jesus and love one another … the loving is the works … good works not because they save but good works because you believe.
Whoever remains in Christ bears much fruit … you want an example … her name is Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Her good works bear witness to her faith. Grace being the only way these good … and sometimes great works are accomplished. One cannot remain in Christ Jesus without Grace.
1 John 3:21-24
Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us,
we have confidence in God
and receive from him whatever we ask,
because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
And his commandment is this:
we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,
and love one another just as he commanded us.
Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them,
and the way we know that he remains in us
is from the Spirit he gave us.
John 15:4-8
Remain in me, as I remain in you.
Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own
unless it remains on the vine,
so neither can you unless you remain in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches.
Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit,
because without me you can do nothing.
Anyone who does not remain in me
will be thrown out like a branch and wither;
people will gather them and throw them into a fire
and they will be burned.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you,
ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
By this is my Father glorified,
that you bear much fruit and become my disciples."
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moondweller
Guest
I agree. One is saved through faith, not works. It’s the saved “by grace through faith” that are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” - not BY them (Eph. 2:8-10).
Not necessarily. One must also know what she believed, or did not believe, to know for certain that she had saving faith. Have not even unbelievers demonstrated great acts of compassion for the poor and destitute of this world?
Not necessarily. Even unbelievers can possess feelings of great compassion and then act on them.
It’s by grace that the believer is now “in Christ.” To be “in Christ” is not volitional but is, in fact, Divinely revealed to be the new eternal position of the one who has believed in Christ. Union with Christ is part and parcel to salvation and entirely an act of God. However, to “abide” in Him in order to bear fruit is totally volitional. John 15:1-6 is an allegory about fruit bearing, not a doctrinal statement on salvation. “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works,” is the doctrinal basis for salvation.
“Abiding” in John 15:1-6 is not about the believer’s “union” with Christ, but constant “communion” with Him. The volitional decision to depend consciously upon Christ as the condition of fruitfulness - not salvation.
Context is everything. Since the subject is the bearing of fruit and not salvation or eternal life, the burning is a judgment upon fruitlessness, not an abandonment to eternal destruction. Such an abandonment is a result of unbelief alone (see Jn. 3:18).
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cheeto1
Guest
Hmm…
Theoritcally speaking, yes. But does anyone have an example of anunbeliever demonstrating great acts of compassion for “the poor”?
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ncgolf
Guest
Not necessarily. Even unbelievers can possess feelings of great compassion and then act on them.It’s by grace that the believer is now “in Christ.” To be “in Christ” is not volitional but is, in fact, Divinely revealed to be the new eternal position of the one who has believed in Christ. Union with Christ is part and parcel to salvation and entirely an act of God. However, to “abide” in Him in order to bear fruit is totally volitional. John 15:1-6 is an allegory about fruit bearing, not a doctrinal statement on salvation. “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works,” is the doctrinal basis for salvation.
“Abiding” in John 15:1-6 is not about the believer’s “union” with Christ, but constant “communion” with Him. The volitional decision to depend consciously upon Christ as the condition of fruitfulness - not salvation.
Context is everything. Since the subject is the bearing of fruit and not salvation or eternal life, the burning is a judgment upon fruitlessness, not an abandonment to eternal destruction. Such an abandonment is a result of unbelief alone (see Jn. 3:18).
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ncgolf
Guest
You cannot distinguish the two … if one may exhibit works you are unsure of its source or it they do not you are unsure of whether they have faith … you are in a pickle … as Catholics we are not … you are right in saying one can be led astray … but not always … there are true followers of “the Way” and they can be imitated … for they are only imitators of the Truth … you see the Truth abides in them … but I can see where your skepticism can exist while I see the Truth illuminating Mother Theresa. If you think it is Mother who is illuminated then you do not understand … for we see what Christ can do to an ordinary human when one gives 100 % of one’s life 100% of the time. If you read anything by her she gives no credit to herself … only to Christ. I have no doubt that there have been those “illuminators” who have brought you to where you are … you have not done it on your own.
Maybe … maybe not but I am not asking about an unbeliever … I do not think you truly believe her to be an unbeliever but I know why you have doubts.
That is only half the story though … I abide in Christ and He in me.
Why then is the relationship between the Church and Christ described as marriage … if not then how you describe this relationship is rape. An unfree response to love. Christ freely gives himself to us … and we freely respond … that is love … freely given and freely responded to.
Yes … by both parties
Your argument is with John then … “Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them” … your tradition demands this division.
You cannot distinguish the two … they are as interrelated as partners in marriage … why separate the two as opposing forces when they are 2 sides of the same coin.
How can one know of unbelief in this life … if a vocal representation of belief is all that is required … you are flat out wrong … there are plenty in this world who talk the talk but dont walk the walk. We see this all the time … believe me … there are plenty who will cry out “Lord, Lord”.
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SHW
Guest
Moondweller,
You keep mistaking “Works of the Law of Moses” for righteous works. Peter is speaking of “works” of the Law of Moses which means the “law of commandments contained in ordinances.” It was these that were impossible to keep and it was these only that Jesus abolished.
Ephesians 2:15 “having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,”
Colossians 2:15-17 “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
Hebrews 9:9-11 “It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.”
What does John say about the commandments of the New Covenant?
1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”
Faith without works is dead/useless. This is Scriptural. Believe it!!! Faith without works will not save us. The Decalogue is relevant whether it became part of the Law of Moses or not. Jesus includes commandments in His New Covenant and if we desire to inherit eternal life, then we must obey/keep them.
Listen to Jesus’ own words:
John 5:28-30 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”
Matthew 7:20-24 “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:”
Matthew 19:16-19 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Jesus never removes these commandments. They must be obeyed if we desire to inherit eternal life. You keep trying to say that the commandments do not matter and that all a person needs is faith. This is not true. We cannot abide in (remain in) Christ unless we obey His commandments. This is His Word. We must believe it and do it if we desire to inherit eternal life. Notice that Jesus does not keep the Sabbath laws in His list? This is because the Sabbath Laws will not be relevant in His New Covenant.
Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”
Revelation 2:26 "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— "
Unless we do good and refrain from evil, we will not inherit eternal life. We can believe that Jesus will save us but He will not save us unless we produce good fruit. We were created to love God and love our neighbors and to live in heaven for eternity after we have been approved.
1 John 2:3-5 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”
to be continued…
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SHW
Guest
Continued:
After Jesus redeems us by His free gift of grace, then we must continue in this grace by obeying God’s commandments and doing the Father’s will which means to produce good fruit/do good works. This is what we were created for and this is what we must do if we desire to inherit eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
This is divine decree. We must walk in good works if we desire to inherit eternal life.
You keep misinterpreting Scripture and this is not good for your salvation.
You will never convince us Bible Catholics with a “half” gospel of Jesus. We believe in “the” gospel of Jesus Christ and it is contained in both written and oral traditions in the Catholic Church and this will remain so until Jesus returns at His Second Coming. We have His Word on it!!!
2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”
1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”
All that the Apostles taught whether by word or epistle are the commandments of God!!!
James 1:21-22 “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”
You deceive yourself, claiming that faith alone is enough to inherit eternal life. Not a good idea.
James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
Don’t bother quoting Psalm 53:1 to us. We know that only a fool says in his heart that there is no God and we also know that according to James 2:20 that only a foolish man believes that faith alone will save him because faith alone without works is dead/useless and it cannot save.
Please stop negating the Word/commandments of God by your misinterpretation of Scripture. We must keep His commandments if we desire to inherit eternal life. This is the Word of God.
Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
Pax,
SHW
After Jesus redeems us by His free gift of grace, then we must continue in this grace by obeying God’s commandments and doing the Father’s will which means to produce good fruit/do good works. This is what we were created for and this is what we must do if we desire to inherit eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
This is divine decree. We must walk in good works if we desire to inherit eternal life.
You keep misinterpreting Scripture and this is not good for your salvation.
You will never convince us Bible Catholics with a “half” gospel of Jesus. We believe in “the” gospel of Jesus Christ and it is contained in both written and oral traditions in the Catholic Church and this will remain so until Jesus returns at His Second Coming. We have His Word on it!!!2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”
1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”
All that the Apostles taught whether by word or epistle are the commandments of God!!!
James 1:21-22 “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”
You deceive yourself, claiming that faith alone is enough to inherit eternal life. Not a good idea.
James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
Don’t bother quoting Psalm 53:1 to us. We know that only a fool says in his heart that there is no God and we also know that according to James 2:20 that only a foolish man believes that faith alone will save him because faith alone without works is dead/useless and it cannot save.
Please stop negating the Word/commandments of God by your misinterpretation of Scripture. We must keep His commandments if we desire to inherit eternal life. This is the Word of God.
Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
Pax,
SHW
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ryanoneil
Guest
What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. For a dead person has been absolved from sin. (Rom 6:1-7)
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ryanoneil
Guest
Yes. Absolutely. Do you think any of these large words fall under Law or works?
**Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles (Rom 1:5)
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)
but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith, (Rom 16:26)
Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him (Heb 5:8-9)
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:4-6)
And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. (1 Jn 3:23)
Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)**
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BRB1
Guest
No … abiding is absolutely about spiritual Union. It happens at every Catholic Eucharist … which is referred to as Christ’s REAL PRESENCE to the saints.
Protestants celebrate a Communion event ever so often … but, it is not the sacrament it is for the Catholic Church.
Thus, its no wonder you see John’s writings as being about ‘communion’ … rather than real spiritual ‘union’ that he spoke of. Catholics understand grace as being ‘infused’ by the union of Christ with man/woman. Sadly many Protestants have missed the message and have settled for an inferior idea of ‘imputed’ grace.
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SHW
Guest
So true!
Christ/Holy Spirit/Father literally abides in us, after our redemption/justification through Baptism, until and unless we commit mortal sin and cast Him out as a result of our mortal sins. If we defile our temples/souls with mortal sins, then God cannot abide in us. The Holy Spirit found abiding in our souls at death is our only guarantee of being approved for inheriting eternal life. I’ve posted Scriptures which support this belief in previous posts. “Imputed” grace is not what Jesus had in mind for all of us. “Infused” grace is what perfects us when we cooperate with it and it makes it possible for us to inherit eternal life.Pax,
SHW
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moondweller
Guest
But salvation is based on belief in what He has done for her through the sacrifice of Himself, once for all, not by her giving Him the credit for her works. God saves believers based on one work and one alone: The “finished” work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
I never knew MT, so I don’t know what she believed about Christ. I admired her and her work, but if she was saved it was “by grace through faith…not as a result of works.” If she’s saved then her works will be appraised at the judgment seat of Christ and those works that are revealed to have quality (figuratively: “gold, silver, precious stones”) then she will receive reward. But her salvation was by grace through faith; and that not of herself, a gift of God; not at all the result of her works (Eph. 2:8-9). It’s the same for everyone. Salvation is based on the sacrificial work of the Son only, and one enters that salvation through faith in Him alone. And by it (that faith) God credits (puts to the believer’s account) Divine righteousness (Rom. 3:24; 4:5; Phil. 3:9). Works can produce neither salvation nor righteousness, but both are gifted by God upon belief in Christ alone - according to the Scriptures (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 3:24).
You completely missed the point. Paul writes:1 Cor 1:30 “But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, 'Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”'It’s revealed in the Scriptures that the true believer, upon faith in Christ, is no longer in Adam but now in the resurrected Christ, the “Last Adam,” his new Federal Head. Being no longer in Adam but now “in Christ” he’s a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10) with a whole new eternal identity. This isn’t a work of man but a creative work of God on the believer’s part. No man has ever believed against his will, else it’s not “belief” at all.
The believer being a new creature “in Christ” (the “Last Adam”) is a totally different and separate concept and context from Christ saying to the believer in Jn. 15:16 that he (the branch) must abide in Him (the Vine) in order to bear fruit. The rule for fruit bearing in this life has nothing to do with the Divinely revealed fact of the believer’s eternal “union” with the resurrected Christ (which we saw is God’s doing, not ours 1 Cor. 1:30).
“Abide in Me” is the volitional and conscious decision of the saved (“by grace through faith”) to depend on Him in order to bear fruit (to His glory) during their stay on earth.
Notice in Matt. 7:21ff that those who cry “Lord, Lord,” also boast of their works they did in His name. But Christ’s response to them is, “I never knew you.” It’s “by grace through faith…not as a result of works,” that one is saved. And the saved “by grace through faith” are eternally “in Christ” - by His doing (1 Cor. 1:30).
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moondweller
Guest
I know nothing of the idea of “imputed grace.” However, I do know (through the Scriptures) of my sins being imputed to Christ and His righteousness being imputed to me (2 Cor. 5:21).
As for Christ instituting the ordinance He said, “Do this in remembrance of Me,” not “Do this to bear fruit.” How did you come up with such an idea? Certainly not from the Scriptures.
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moondweller
Guest
“Obedience of faith” falls under neither law or works, but salvation "by grace through FAITH…a gift of God, not as a result of works." As Paul writes to those Galatians who wanted to be saved through the principle of obedience to law through works:Gal 2:19-21 "For through law I died to law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through (the principle of) law, then Christ died needlessly."And based on the truth that salvation is “by grace through faith” alone he writes:Gal 3:1-10 "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of law, or by hearing with faith?
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT (faith) WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse;"
B
BRB1
Guest
Scriptures are very clear that Grace is infused … not imputed. I lived most of my life under false Protestant concept of imputed mechanisms. Imputed mechanistic ideas of grace allows Protestants to be happy with only a ‘communion’ Lord’s Supper … sometimes only celebrated on quarterly annual basis.
MD talks of many inconsistencies in Catholicism … that prevents him from converting to the Church Universal. The reality is there are very few inconsistencies. Protestantism has far more inconsistencies in its beliefs [especially with the Core concepts of mechanism of Grace] that allows one to Abide in Christ.
This thread’s topic is answered in John 15:1-16 … which was last Sunday’s Gospel reading for the Church. MD missed last Sunday’s Mass … so lets give him the key text for his study/consideration.
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he TAKES AWAY, and every branch that does bear fruit, HE PRUNES, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. ABIDE IN ME, and I IN YOU. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me YOU CAN DO NOTHING. If a man DOES NOT ABIDE in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be down for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and SO PROVE TO BE MY DISCIPLES. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. If you KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be IN YOU, that your joy may be full. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends IF YOU DO WHAT I COMMAND YOU. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should GO AND BEAR FRUIT AND THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD ABIDE; …”
My commentary:
Word abide is used 10 times in above short passage. Its all about Union with Christ, about perserverance to the end, proving our devotion by obedience to the Commandments, especially the Laws of Love (Beatitudes), and having a ‘friendship’ Union with God that leads to action (graceful works) on our part. Imputed grace cannot ideally accomplish this ending. It takes Infusion of grace, frequent Eucharist, and Catholic understandings of Gospel and Church mission in this world to bear much fruit and have full unity with Christ.
MD … come on over an find a fuller Union in Christ’s Church. Drop those imputed ‘protective force-shield’ ideas of grace … and let the Church’s proper understandings on grace/justification/sanctification … infuse you from inside out. Become a new infused [enthused] man … as John teaches that Christ intended it.
Are you gonna listen to John … or Martin L ? Which was the true apostle ? Which was directly linked to Christ ? Which of two wrote the gospel … and which rejected much of it out of sin of pride ? Which of the two had the true Union with Christ … and which was a rebellious brute who only wanted ‘communion’ on his own terms ? Which of the two inspires us today … and which became an inspiration to Hitler and other racists ?
M
moondweller
Guest
That’s baptized INTO Christ, not baptized in the name of Christ. The former is done by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13) at the time of faith in Christ, the latter by men. The latter is done subsequent to the former and has no power to bring about the believer’s union with Christ. It’s not its purpose.
B
BRB1
Guest
Yes, we see this … you are operating under M.L.'s false ideas on mechanism of grace. You have a blindspot on this matter. Spend more time studing John’s Gospel message … as taught to him firsthand by Christ.
John also will give you the correct teaching on the Eucharist. Until you understand infused grace and the True Presence of Eucharist … your gospel message ‘disconnects’ will continue to plague your Christology/Theology.
Even Paul challenges you in his letters … to move on to the higher wisdom of God thru Christ. Why remain confused on the basic concepts of Gospel message? Until you are well grounded in the basics concepts of Christ on grace/justification/sanctification … you are twisting in a ‘doldrum’ equitorial wind. Its time you catch the swift Catholic Gulf Stream current, and let the Church & her teachings educate you more exactly on doctrines of truth.
We’re all pulling for you to get safely on base and score. Let your Catholic teamates help you advance on base. Teamwork is the key to Christian success. God knows no ‘one shot’ wonders. We have all been there at some point in our lives, trying to hit homeruns and advance our cause & selfish glory. Rely on your teammates and Christ’s Church. Christ picked 12 to start his Church, and one didn’t desire to remain a teamplayer.
M
moondweller
Guest
Commentary is to an exposition based on the text itself. What you give here is not commentary but personal opinion in spite of the text.
Thanks for the invitation. I do appreciate it. :thankyou: But I know nothing of “infused” anything, according to the Scriptures.
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