What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[moondweller]

The fact remains, the Israelites were commanded to kill people in the name of God.

And you believe Christians are commanded to kill and torture people in the name of God? Give me chapter and verse please. Give me a list of names of those whom the Apostles killed or tortured; and while you’re at it, the command from Jesus to do it.

I disagree. Paul calls himself the “foremost of sinners” because he was persecuting Christ, the Son of God, and not simply because he was persecuting those whom he assumed to be God’s enemies; because capital punishment was lawful and was practiced and even encouraged in order to defend and protect the purity of the Jewish “faith.”

1 Cor 15:9 “For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.”

We know all about how Jesus first justifies us as a free gift of grace through no works of our own. You do not have to keep repeating yourself. We also know that none of these verses state that a person cannot lose this justification. They just tell us instead how we first receive justification. There is no justification at all until we receive it through Jesus Christ as a free gift of grace.

In Biblical theology there is no “first” (“initial”) justification. That’s uniquely Catholic. According to Divine Revelation one is justified apart from works and through faith alone because it’s one’s FAITH that God credits to him as righteousness (not even his baptism):Rom 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (grace), but as what is due (i.e., a wage, something earned). But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"That’s FAITH ALONE my friend. Not works, not baptism, not even love is credited as righteousness. But one’s faith, alone. It’s not “they” (as in baptism, works, love) are credited as righteousness, but IT is credited as righteousness.

After presenting Abraham as the prime example of justification through faith alone as recorded in Gen. 15:6, Paul goes on to bring that same principle of grace home to us:Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.The true believer’s hope is not to one day be finally judged saved and justified through a lifetime of works, but that having been saved and justified by grace through faith alone, God is the one who is finally glorified before all intelligences because of His infinite grace toward us through Jesus Christ - as He should be and will be.

We maintain our justification by “faith working through love.” We continue to be saved by both “faith and works.” (Galatians 5:6) We are judged on Judgment Day according to our works. (Romans 2:5-8)

And that’s the bottom line in your soteriology. You Catholics will be finally judged justified or not, finally saved or not, according to your works. That dear Catholic friend is a “gospel” of salvation by works. From start (baptism) to end (judgment according to works) it’s a “gospel” of salvation by works.

 

[NoelFitz]

Moondweller

Perhaps this debate has been too long and is not going anywhere.

Catholics have a “both/and” approach, while Protestants seem to have an “either/or” approach.

Catholics say we are saved both by faith and good works, Protestants say we are saved by faith alone.

 

[SHW]

And you believe Christians are commanded to kill and torture people in the name of God? Give me chapter and verse please. Give me a list of names of those whom the Apostles killed or tortured; and while you’re at it, the command from Jesus to do it. 1 Cor 15:9 "For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Yes, Saul persecuted the Church of God with Jesus as its head. “Why are you persecuting me?”

Acts 9:4 "Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

This also shows that the Catholic Church is the Church which speaks for Jesus as the Church of God. (Luke 10:16) Persecute His Church and you persecute Him!

No, I do not think that Jesus calls for Christians to persecute others in His name. But, the fact is, they were imitating those who had gone before them and Saul was a prime example of “persecuting/killing in the name of God.”

In Biblical theology there is no “first” (“initial”) justification. That’s uniquely Catholic. According to Divine Revelation one is justified apart from works and through faith alone because it’s one’s FAITH that God credits to him as righteousness (not even his baptism):Rom 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT was credited to him as righteousness.” …That’s faith alone.

Get over it! Scripture also states that Abraham was justified by his works. After we are justified by faith, we maintain this justification by both faith and works. And this is not uniquely Catholic. There are other denominations who also believe this. Nowhere in Scripture does it state that we are justified by “faith alone.” This is contrary to Scripture.

James 2:20-23 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? (useless) 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Faith and obedience work together in order to maintain justification.

After presenting Abraham as the prime example of justification through faith alone as recorded in Gen. 15:6, Paul goes on to bring that same principle of grace home to us:

Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.The true believer’s hope is not to one day be finally judged saved and justified through a lifetime of works, but that having been saved and justified by grace through faith alone, God is the one who is finally glorified before all intelligences because of His infinite grace toward us through Jesus Christ - as He should be and will be.And that’s the bottom line in your soteriology. You Catholics will be finally judged justified or not, finally saved or not, according to your works. That dear Catholic friend is a “gospel” of salvation by works. From start (baptism) to end (judgment according to works) it’s a “gospel” of salvation by works.
​

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I’m not the one who does not understand that we are definitely justified by works and not by faith alone in order to inherit eternal life. You are the one having trouble understanding this fact. We stand in grace unless we sin. If we sin, then we no longer stand in grace. (Hebrews 10:24-30)

I am not the one who negates the Word of God by saying that we do not have to keep/obey God’s commandments in order to inherit eternal life when Jesus states that we do.

Matthew 19:16-19 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[d] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Both faith and works justify us and approve us for inheriting eternal life. (John 5:28-30)

I am unsubscribing from this thread since I do not have enough time to continue with it. Someone else will perhaps continue this “dialogue” with you. ​

 

[Cinette]

Moondweller

Perhaps this debate has been too long and is not going anywhere.

Catholics have a “both/and” approach, while Protestants seem to have an “either/or” approach.

Catholics say we are saved both by faith and good works, Protestants say we are saved by faith alone.

I can’t imagine how one can separate Faith and good works.

If you have Faith in God you will love Him and obey His Commandments.

In the old penny Catechism there was the question: “Why did God make you?” and the answer was: “God made me to know Him, to love Him, to serve Him and to be with him forever in the next” That is how I remember it. Maybe I have left out a word? (correct me someone?)

I believe that that answer encapsulates Faith and good works - it follows, it makes sense. Faith alone is silly I think. It implies that no matter how bad you are if you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour you will be saved.:nope::nope: How can you have Faith and offend God and think that you will be saved? Even the Devil has Faith but he doesn’t want to obey God. To sin is to separate yourself from God. So?

Read Romans 2:1-16 - it talks about judgment and good works.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

SHW:

We do not stray. You keep misrepresenting Catholic belief. Catholics believe that we are saved by both faith and works.

The problem here is that terms are not really agreed upon. In a certain sense md the bac is correct when understood with his terms. According to him “they” (the bacs I presume) teach the importance of works (but how, or for what reason, he failed to explain.)

Because these terms are not understood in the same light by both sides, both sides continue to argue past one another, and in md’s case, I have to believe this has been working greatly to his advantage.

The terms are Salvation, Justification, Works.

There is a great quantity of DOCTRINE that is adherent to these words and so completely colors one’s interpretation of the Scripture.

The problem here is that md will NOT admit to holding fast to a DOCTRINE (which is how those terms above are defined.) Either DOCTRINE may be proved by EITHER SIDE from Scripture. That is why Scripture CAN NOT BE USED TO PROVE DOCTRINE. (It can be used to justify doctrine, but not to prove it.) It’s a vicious circle, and results in tedious, fruitless battles as are seen in this thread.

Anyone’s Doctrine can be proved from Scripture and therefore anyone’s doctrine is proved Scriptural. Therefore anyone can “prove” his side’s doctrine is the correct one. This IS THE GREAT OPPRESSION UNDER WHICH the bacs are blinded with an irrational bigotry! They DON’T KNOW THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT! They think THEY are SPECIAL!.

There is no use talking with someone about Scripture who DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE AN AUTHORITY (OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE) FROM GOD. Only the Catholic Church has its Authority from God, from Jesus Christ himself. Anyone that does not acknowledge the Church’s Divine authority is a branch cut off from the vine. They should be shunned as the Early Church Fathers recommended.

 

[moondweller]

The problem here is that terms are not really agreed upon. In a certain sense md the bac is correct when understood with his terms. According to him “they” (the bacs I presume) teach the importance of works (but how, or for what reason, he failed to explain.)

You never asked:1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”

1 Cor 10:31 “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.”

Rom 12:1-2 "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."These are written to the already “saved by grace through faith.” These are instruction FOR the saved, not instruction on HOW to be saved. Where you stray from the gospel of Divine grace is that you interpret all the instructions TO the saved as pending conditions for being saved (future). That’s salvation by works.

The problem is interpreting Scripture out of context. Every verse taken out of context is a pretext.

 

[NoelFitz]

Cinette

Thank you so much for your reply to me.

As you talk about the penny catechism I see you are not from America. I note you are from Africa. Do you have an Irish background? I learned in the old Irish catechism that “God made us to know, love and serve Him here on earth and by this means to be happy with Him forever in heaven.”

Many of the early Fathers believed that good doctrine went with good practise, orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Catholics and Protestants understand PISTIS (faith) in different ways. For the Catholic it is a collection of truths to be believed, for the Protestant it is trust in God.

Not being a Protestant I cannot understand their thinking. Perhaps it is that if you claim to have faith/trust and sin you are a hypocrite and really are not faithful.

Among my problems is the uncertainty whether Protestants claim we are saved by grace or by faith alone.

If we are saved by faith alone, it seems to me we save ourselves (Palagianism). Thus God offers me grace. I accept it and am saved. Thus I am saved by my own act of acceptance.

I may be a bit confused, so I would welcome clarification.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

You never asked:1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”

1 Cor 10:31 “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.”

Rom 12:1-2 "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."These are written to the already “saved by grace through faith.” These are instruction FOR the saved, not instruction on HOW to be saved. Where you stray from the gospel of Divine grace is that you interpret all the instructions TO the saved as pending conditions for being saved (future). That’s salvation by works.

The problem is interpreting Scripture out of context. Every verse taken out of context is a pretext.

Still evading I see. You originally said “WE” teach the importance of works. Who is “WE?” Still UNCOMFORTABLE admitting you are a part of a “we” TODAY?

Catholics can indeed speak of a “we.” But who do bacs mean? Are you a congregation? Do you have members? I mean here on earth, in a concrete physical location. That is the “we” I am talking about. That is also the “we” you are uncomfortable admitting to. You are ashamed to say I am a member of such and such a church or congregation, or worse, you are anti-social and don’t feel it is necessary to belong to any physical human living today congregation.

So is there a “we” or “they” that teach the importance of works TODAY out of the mouths of living humans, that supposedly you count yourself among, and therefore your statement (“we” teach the importance of works?) has some truth. Or do you live in a fantasy world?

 

[ryanoneil]

I can show you where all who were baptized were those who first believed. Notice the wording in Acts 16:34:“And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.” It was his believing household that was subsequently baptized. NEVER is it recorded that infants were baptized based on surrogate faith. This crazy notion is all based on men introducing into Christianity the corrupt, extrabiblical doctrine that water baptism has power to save someone.Gross error.

That doesn’t say that baptism is to be restricted to adults. And that is not how it happened in Lydia’s household. Paul baptized the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household.

One of them, a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth, from the city of Thyatira, a worshiper of God, listened, and the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what Paul was saying. After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home,” and she prevailed on us. (Acts 16:14-15)

The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children.

Jewish infants were subsquently circumcised because they were BORN into that covenant nation. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant God made with the descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Circumcision took place eight days AFTER THE BIRTH of the male child. Similarly, to enter into a saved relationship with God one must be first be “born again,” by spiritual rebirth, and this through faith in Christ alone.

And usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law. Circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

Christ didn’t say one was born again through faith only. People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, "Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. (Lk 18:15-16)

Even infants are capable of belonging to his Kingdom, which means this also applies to them.

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (John 3:5)

It’s only those who are first born again through faith in Christ that are to be subsequently water baptized. In the Scriptures baptism is reserved only for those who first profess personal belief in Christ; those who are “born again” in Him. But unlike circumcision baptism is not restricted to male believers only but both male and female.

Yours is the corrupt doctrine that guts half the truth out of the bible (because you only include the adult aspect). Peter said the exact opposite.

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

The Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what you say and actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call." (Acts 2:39)

The truth is, Ryan, there’s not one single recorded incident in Scripture of an infant baptism via “surrogate” faith of the parents. The sequence is personal belief first, then baptism. But salvation itself is “by grace through faith…”, not by grace through baptism.

If infant baptism was not the rule, where are all the references to children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason?

The fact is entire households are baptized which included children. We don’t know their exact age, but there were certainly children younger than the age of reason.

But baptism itself cannot cause the rebirth.

Why? Don’t try and restrict God’s grace.

For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. (1 Cor 7:14)

How are these children holy?

 

[BRB1]

To be part of God’s covenant nation all one needed was to be physically born to Jewish parents. .

No …

Was Abraham born of Jewish parents ?

The Jews taught that circumcision and obedence to Moasic Laws were crucial elements.

Femailes were viewed as purified thru obedience to their fathers [or husband] & those aspects of Mosaic Law that applied to them.

 

[ryanoneil]

No …

Was Abraham born of Jewish parents ?

The Jews taught that circumcision and obedence to Moasic Laws were crucial elements.

Femailes were viewed as purified thru obedience to their fathers [or husband] & those aspects of Mosaic Law that applied to them.

And God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children (based on the parent’s faith). The parents played a critical role in their child’s salvation.

On this occasion the LORD said to Joshua, “Make flint knives and circumcise the Israelite nation for the second time.” So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the Israelites at Gibeath-haaraloth, under these circumstances: Of all the people who came out of Egypt, every man of military age had died in the desert during the journey after they left Egypt. Though all the men who came out were circumcised, none of those born in the desert during the journey after the departure from Egypt were circumcised. Now the Israelites had wandered forty years in the desert, until all the warriors among the people that came forth from Egypt died off because they had not obeyed the command of the LORD. For the LORD swore that he would not let them see the land flowing with milk and honey which he had promised their fathers he would give us. It was the children whom he raised up in their stead whom Joshua circumcised, for these were yet with foreskins, not having been circumcised on the journey. (Joshua 5:2-7)

 

[BRB1]

So? How does that enhance your argument??

Because Holy Orders can not be revoked. Did Christ ‘fire’ Judas or pronounce judgment on him prematurely because he was a thief ?

Once ordained a priest or bishop … one remains one for life. However, a priest or bishop not in harmony with the Papacy can be excommunicated. But that doesn’t fully remove their title.

M. L. was a priest … so he was able to celebrate the Eucharist validly … even after he left the Catholic Church. However, he was not a bishop … so he could not Ordain others or convey valid priestly succession within his splinter church. If he had been a bishop … that would of presented potentially grave issues for the Church.

Judas was a full apostle [bishop]. As Peter teaches … “let his office another take”. No one took Judas’s office from him … he forfeited it willingly, by his suicide actions.

Judas was cleansed & ordained by Christ, early in his ministry. However, Judas never obtained ‘salvation status’ as you suggest Catholics believe. Catholics teach salvation is not firmly established until one’s final hour, bell tolls. Unrepentant Apostates don’t obtain salvation.

Again, you are letting your errant OSAS ideas cloud your ability to understand Judas’ dilemma.

 

[moondweller]

If we are saved by faith alone, it seems to me we save ourselves (Palagianism). Thus God offers me grace. I accept it and am saved. Thus I am saved by my own act of acceptance.

I may be a bit confused, so I would welcome clarification.

God doesn’t “offer” anyone grace. According to the Scriptures He SAVES “by grace” (unmerited, divine favor) “through faith.” That is, the one who believes the message of salvation through the Person and work of His beloved Son.Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

 

[BRB1]

It was the children whom he raised up in their stead whom Joshua circumcised, for these were yet with foreskins, not having been circumcised on the journey. (Joshua 5:2-7)

Exactly!

Children are foremost in God’s eye ! Adults who come to salvation must become childlike in their faiths [getting rid of all pride], in order to receive justification.

Why can’t MD see this Catholic Truth ? Catholics start our children off at earliest possible ages … receiving graces from Christ.

Its all right there in OT/NT sacred scripture … why can’t the sola scriptura folks believe their ONLY textbook ?

 

[moondweller]

Still evading I see. You originally said “WE” teach the importance of works. Who is “WE?” Still UNCOMFORTABLE admitting you are a part of a “we” TODAY?

“We” born again believers who agree with the Scriptures that one is “saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves; a gift of God, not as a result of works…”

I’m very comfortable being eternally associated with such people.

 

[BRB1]

You’re rationalizing. This Scriptures has nothing to do with baptizing infants. It, in fact, has nothing to do with baptisim at all.

Christ didn’t baptize others … per testimony of St. John. But, he did lay hands upon and bless infants,children, and adults.

You also overlook testimony from second century AD history. Justin Martyr and other historians recount this practice was common in their day. It has always been standard operating proceedure for the Church, Christ started.

Christ’s Church didn’t invent its core practices in 1600’s, like yours did. Where in history are the roots of your Church? Give us some text or history we can read to verify.
Show us the necessary ordained, apostolic linkage flowing from days of Christ til the present time … within your church.

If you can’t, you need to discover your roots in Catholicism. M.L’s priesthood died with him. It didn’t survive the century it started.

 

[moondweller]

No …

Was Abraham born of Jewish parents ?

Abraham wasn’t a Jew, nor was he ever under the Law. Israel-ites are descendants of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. Get the connection? It’s the “sons of Jacob” with whom God entered into a covenant relationship based on the Law of Moses (Mosaic covenant).

The Jews taught that circumcision and obedence to Moasic Laws were crucial elements.

Yes, but they erred in thinking by them they were saved. Do you not understand the N.T. at all? Read again the fourth chapter of Romans and the whole Book of Galatians.

 

[ryanoneil]

“We” born again believers who agree with the Scriptures that one is “saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves; a gift of God, not as a result of works…”

I’m very comfortable being eternally associated with such people.

This refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)

There is a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace). Indeed, Christ dwells in our hearts through faith, but we also must be rooted and grounded in love.

and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the holy ones what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:17-19)

Read the moral exhortations in the rest of the book. Paul shows the standards of Christian belief are inseparable from the standardes of Christian behavior.

 

[NoelFitz]

MD
You wrote:

God doesn’t “offer” anyone grace. According to the Scriptures He SAVES “by grace” (unmerited, divine favor) “through faith.” That is, the one who believes the message of salvation through the Person and work of His beloved Son.

If one chooses not to believe the message of salvation is one not saved?

If one is saved by believing “the message of salvation through the Person and work of His beloved Son” then ones saves oneself by this choice to believe.

I am a bit confused, but do you get the point I am trying to make?

 

[BRB1]

I think a reality check is needed here. How far will you stray just to tray to prove salvation by works?

MD …

This is another red herring. You well know that Catholics don’t believe ‘human’ deeds [good works] are our ticket to salvation.

Catholics believe what Christ taught. We can do NOTHING APART FROM HIM. W/O initial contrition, childlike faith that Christ alone is our only hope & savior, the only one who can forgive sins & present us to the Father … our postconversion works have no salvation validity.

But, once we are justified by faith … we see that Faith Alone is devoid of lifelong validity, if we live for any length of time past our justification. Keeping the Big 10 and the new commandment of Christ [Beatitudes / Law of Love] must become our highest post-conversion priority.

We believe we HAVE BEEN saved, ARE CURRENTLY saved, and WILL BE saved if we ABIDE in Christ. Any works we do are those Christ desires for us.

The Church also has a 2000 year track record in written history. Our Church wrote your Bible, suffered the most in martyrdom, has produced many great scientists and most of the outstanding theologians. We are your past & future … since Christ is the Head of our Church, and can best be served / experienced in Catholicsm.

So, if you want the ultimate in Christian living … start going to Mass, study the Church, and you will soon give up your ‘tired’ arguments against Catholicism. Most of what you errantly believe about the Church … is a myth promoted by satan. But, most especially your ideas on Salvation by Works Alone.