What does it mean to be "the Son of God?"

[inJESUS]

My dear, didn’t I already tell you, that the word is not the same as Wisdom/Mind -the source of the word. Word is an out come of WIsdom/Mind.

and i already told you you must read it in light of how it was used in the Bible. THe “Word” is not understood to mean an “uttered” word that came into existence “only” when uttered.

In Islam, we don’t believe the book or the arabic words in Quran is eternal, but the concept and the message existing in it is eternal, since it existing in the Wisdom/Mind of God. The words in Quran is recorded and preserved in the heaven as per below.

 

[inJESUS]

For as a sign, for that the Messengers were truly from GOD, what they were speaking was truly from GOD.

very good. Miracles are done as a sign. Jesus being born without a physical father when all other prophets, the greatest if we can say, were born normally; what is this sign for? it’s not even Jesus who made it according to you but God. It’s not the prophet who made it to prove who he is , but God Himself, to prove what? Not to mention that it is NOT something seen or proved, it is NOT something Jesus made to prove he is a prophet so no one can “check” this miracle. It is an “invisible” miracle taken with faith only.Then why was He born as such?

 

[Khalfan]

very good. Miracles are done as a sign. Jesus being born without a physical father when all other prophets, the greatest if we can say, were born normally; what is this sign for? it’s not even Jesus who made it according to you but God. It’s not the prophet who made it to prove who he is , but God Himself, to prove what? Not to mention that it is NOT something seen or proved, it is NOT something Jesus made to prove he is a prophet so no one can “check” this miracle. It is an “invisible” miracle taken with faith only.Then why was He born as such?

None of the miracles any prophet did, was not of their own power. All those were happened with Gods power. Birth of Jesus (pbuh) too was a miracle by the power of God to prove Jesus (pbuh) is a person coming on a mission from God, people may accept the words Jesus (pbuh) preach.

Infact according to Christianity, birth of Jesus (pbuh) is not a miracle that proved something to someone, but it was something related to his divinity, the sign for he is GOD incarnate. But in Islam, this event has a different background. A man called Joseph is not mentioned in Quran. The importance was indeed for the virginity of Mary (ra).

{Relate in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen [to screen herself] from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: “I seek refuge from thee to [God] Most Gracious: [come not near] if thou dost fear God.” He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, [to announce] to thee the gift of a holy son.” She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?” He said: “So [it will be]: Thy Lord saith, ‘That is easy for Me: and [We wish] to appoint him as a sign unto men and a mercy from Us.’ It is a matter [so] decreed.” So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place} (Maryam 19:16-22)

{At length she brought the [babe] to her people, carrying him [in her arms]. They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” He said: “I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live; [He] hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life [again]!” Such [was] Jesus the son of Mary: [it is] a statement of truth, about which they [vainly] dispute.} Maryam 19:27-34)

Surprisingly, we don’t find much details on the childhood, study and other events in the life of Jesus (pbuh), till he start preaching. According to Gospels birth of Jesus (pbuh) through virgin Mary was nothing more than any natural event and miracle depends only on the words of Mary (ra). But in Quran, it was one of the greatest miracle ever happened in the history of mankind. Check what a christian theologian said.

“There is no historical-biographical interest in the Gospels, and that is why they have nothing to say about Jesus’ human personality, his appearance and character, his origin, education and development… They do not tell of a much admired human personality, but of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Lord of the Church, and do so because they have grown out of Christian worship and remain tied to it.” -Rudolph Karl Bultmann (1884-1976) (The History of the Synoptic Tradition, [ET Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1963], pp. 372-73).

 

[inJESUS]

None of the miracles any prophet did, was not of their own power. All those were happened with Gods power. Birth of Jesus (pbuh) too was a miracle by the power of God to prove Jesus (pbuh) is a person coming on a mission from God, people may accept the words Jesus (pbuh) preach.

fine. Every miracle is done **BY THE PROPHET **by God’s power. JESUS DID NOT DO THAT MIRACLE TO PROVE ANYTHING. Hence, we CANNOT say that Jesus did a miracle to prove he was sent by God. Likewise, God did **NOT **do a miracle that proves Jesus is sent by Him because, simply, no human being saw it so how sir, pray tell, is this a miracle that could prove anything when no human being even saw it or made sure of it?

But in Islam, this event has a different background. A man called Joseph is not mentioned in Quran. The importance was indeed for the virginity of Mary (ra).

 

[Khalfan]

unfortunatly what you believe in is that God did not preserve His word as He said- and that all people corrupt their books except Muslims; as if nobody cares about God except you. These are the techniques used by cults- doubting God’s power and denying all previous scriptures.

God preserved his message he revealed in all scriptures. Otherwise we wouldn’t know Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses (PBUT) and the message they all preached that the God is only ONE and only he is to be worshiped. But the preserverence was supposed to be done by the people to whom it was revealed. The prophets kept it well. But later people added their own imaginary ideas into it. It wasn’t always that they didn’t care about God. They did it sincerily like it is in the songs and the heresaid words of people. The reasons was many. We can read it in the OT itself.

Jeremaih 8:8 " 'How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

See… those people too claimed the same that they have the law as it was revealed, but God says the truth their lying pen handled it falsely. If it is any kind of cult trick to doubt the scriptures, wouldn’t that apply to prophet Jeremiah?

I have given enough evidence of addition and fabrication done in NT like 1 John 5:7 or Mark 16:9-20. But you just ignore that and claim again that it is a ‘cult trick’!

Continue.

 

[Khalfan]

You fail to get my point It was Jesus who changed them. Who the Messiah is or what He will do is one example. When Jews expected him to be a rich king who will save them, Jesus was poor and not an king as understood by people. Or will you tell me that we made Jesus poor as well and deprived him of his kingdom and maybe destroyed his castle ?

Did Jesus (pbuh) changed any law?

we do not need to interpret them for “us” but to people who do not understand what Jesus uttered in relation to how it was understood back then. One simple example is " my peace i give to you, not as the world give do i give you". These are not words that people like Muhammad or prophets like Moses can utter because it’d be blasphemy to say that a human gives peace the “world” cannot give because only God gives peace. Another example would be " i give you wisdom"…well sir, only God gives wisdom and no other prophet dared utter these words as they are blasphemy, yet Jesus did. These are 2 simple examples but the Bible is full of them if interpreted in light of what they meant to Jews back then, and not what they meant to arabs 600 years later or JW thousands of years later. Not to mention that, like you, we have sacred tradition written by the apostles’ apostle and Jesus “Godness” was preached since the first century.

See… here again, you simply ignore the words of Jesus (pbuh) on the authority he was given by GOD even to forgive sin. You simply ignore the words of Jesus (pbhu) where he said he was unable to do anything of his own. Those words too is supposed to be the WORDS OF GOD according to you, right? No. I don’t think. You too won’t agree that since it contradicts the power of JesusGOD (as supposed), and so that you ignore it.

why don’t you answer me this:

Is God’s word another god or is it of god’s nature yet not god?

God’s word is not God. Words are not his nature either. But it is one in many way of expressing nature of God. Details follows in coming posts.

you see? so when we quote them, you shout “corrupt!”. We people, unlike you, do not question God when He says He preserves His word. We care less for what self-claimed scholars say because, with time, other scholars discover they were wrong not to mention that, again, in our sacred tradition, since the first century, God, His word and His Spirit are One God. Remember that unlike what Muhammad taught you , Jesus left no book. Jesus left disciples who established churches everywhere. These churches left us the disciples’ teachings before the NT was compiled. So unlike what you think, we do not believe in the divinity of Jesus because of the Bible but because of His disciples and their disciples afterwards. You, on the other hand, not only you reject the historical event of his crucifixion and think that God made a trick on the cross, but you also question God’s seriousness when He says He preserves His word and remember that satan’s first attempt to seduce adam was " no God did not say that".

Thanks. Now only you got into the real problem. The basis of your faith is the written scripures in NT. The source of your knowledge about Jesus (pbuh) is Gospels. Just think for a moment, who wrote Mark, Matthew and John? no one knows. What was originally written? No one knows. Luke was not an eyewitness of the life of Jesus (pbuh), but he wrote it from the inforamtion he got from others. Was all this 4 gospels were authorised by Jesus (pbuh)? No. Was it authorised by the eyewitnesses? no one knows.

Now, do you think, none of the authors who made NIV translation, do cares about GOD? Were they making NIV version for personal interest or just fun? I don’t think. Think, if they were reached in a conclusion that Mark 16:9-20 wasn’t ever written by the original writer; it should be noted in the Bible itself; do you think they will make it just like that? No my dear. They may have done months or years of study before they exclude it from the Bible.

Now to show you a living error in the Bible, tell me which one of 1 jn 5:7 in the below is the correct one?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. -KJV

For there are three that testify; -NASB

 

[inJESUS]

God preserved his message he revealed in all scriptures. Otherwise we wouldn’t know Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses (PBUT) and the message they all preached that the God is only ONE and only he is to be worshiped. But the preserverence was supposed to be done by the people to whom it was revealed. The prophets kept it well. But later people added their own imaginary ideas into it. It wasn’t always that they didn’t care about God. They did it sincerily like it is in the songs and the heresaid words of people. The reasons was many. We can read it in the OT itself.

in other words, God failed to preserve His word as He said. Did Muhammad teach you that God is not serious about what he says?if not, then how can you reconcile the idea of a JUST and POWERFUL God with corruption that proves He is neither Just (for letting people mislead billions) nor Powerful( for letting weak humans corrupt what He said will not be corrupt).Just what idea of God are you preaching?

Jeremaih 8:8 " 'How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

 

[inJESUS]

Other prophets affirm that the book of Moses was still available during their day:

"They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read … On the second day … they gathered around Ezra the scribe to** give attention to the words of the Law.** They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that the Israelites were to … Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God …" Nehemiah 8:13-14,18

This was written after Jeremiah 8:8 and no one understood it as you did.

Lastly, and since Jeremiah is a true prophet from God, he did not question God’s Word as cult leaders do that’s why he wrote:

They said, ‘Come, let’s make plans against Jeremiah; for the teaching of the law by the priest WILL NOT BE LOST, nor will counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says.’" Jeremiah 18:18

What Jeremish meant is that the scribes were misleading the people either through their oral traditions and/or the writing down of erroneous interpretations of the Law. A similar situation existed in the time of Lord Jesus :

“Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, ‘Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!’ Jesus replied, ‘And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? … Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.”’” Matthew 15:1-3,6-9

Jeremiah says something similar:
The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have." Jeremiah 8:9

When one read in context ,he comes to a good conclusion that does not insult God who said He preserves His word.

Putting scripture aside,let’s use some logic. Can corrupt people write that they corrupted their scriptures? where the Jews idiots for not deleting the “crime weapon” (= accusation) from their scriptures?

I have given enough evidence of addition and fabrication done in NT like 1 John 5:7 or Mark 16:9-20. But you just ignore that and claim again that it is a ‘cult trick’!

i’ll reply to this after iread your second post

 

[inJESUS]

Did Jesus (pbuh) changed any law?

Jesus changed the interpretation of the Law in some places; Jesus fulfilled = finished =stopped the Law in other places ( sacrifices/ relation between Jews/gentiles/ dietary system ecc)that’s why He said He did not come to abolish but fulfill. Old Covenant versus New Covenant…it’s not changing but fulfilling;hence the Levitical Law is no longer applied since Jesus fulfilled it and He reinterpreted the Moral Law in light of His message of salvation.

See… here again, you simply ignore the words of Jesus (pbuh) on the authority he was given by GOD even to forgive sin. You simply ignore the words of Jesus (pbhu) where he said he was unable to do anything of his own. Those words too is supposed to be the WORDS OF GOD according to you, right? No. I don’t think. You too won’t agree that since it contradicts the power of JesusGOD (as supposed), and so that you ignore it.

 

[Khalfan]

and i already told you you must read it in light of how it was used in the Bible. THe “Word” is not understood to mean an “uttered” word that came into existence “only” when uttered.

Oh… I am sorry, I didn’t know, ‘ANT’ means ‘ELEPHANT’ for you. I know what WORD means in English language, but I didn’t know what it means in Bible. I misunderstood it since you quoted many examples for the words of God, you even compared Quran as word of God in Islam. So that I considered WORD of God in Bible just as we consider about Quran in Islam. Now please tell me, what do you understand of WORD in light of Bible.

my question is simple and need no turning round the bush. Is God’s Word (not quran) but His Word that existed with Him. in His Wisdom, is it created or uncreated? eternal or not?

Either you are still not correct with your question or you totally lost in the question. You only said Quran is the word of God for Muslims and I agreed that. But now you said ‘Gods Word but not Quran’. You agreed that Word is not Wisdom in Islam. It is not same in English language even. Now you are trying to make word existing in the Wisdom. Unless you prove Word exists in the Wisdom, your question doesn’t make any sense. If you say Word is Wisdom and asking if the Wisdom is created or not, my answer would be, IT IS NOT CREATED, Wisdom of God is eternal. If you say Word exist in the Wisdom and asking if the Word is created or not, my answer would be, IT IS CREATED. For many reasons.

1. Word cannot exist IN Wisdom since Wisdom is the knowledge of GOD and knowledge is not words.
2. Word cannot exist IN Wisdom since Words are just one of the many ways to express Wisdom.
3. Word cannot come into existence until Wisdom decide to express something through Words.

Continue.

 

[Khalfan]

Continue.

this is in opposition to what the Bible and Suni islam teach when we say Word, we are talking about God’s mind, and not the words uttered by human beings.

I already told you that it must be understood in relation with how it was used in the OT and Nt and not how you want it to mean, The Aramaic Targums equat God with His Word: thus in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, says that the people went out to meet the word of God.

I am a Sunni and are you teaching me what we teach? Here you said WORD means MIND OF GOD. Jesus (pbuh) was the Word/Mind of God. Can mind of God have ignorance on anything? Why Jesus/Mind of God needed a teacher? Why Jesus (pbuh) didn’t know end of time? Why he didn’t know the woman touched him who got healed by touching his cloak? Why he didn’t know the season of fig tree? Becasue he wasn’t Mind of GOD.

Example from the Bible:
Here Wisdom is saying:

I came forth from the mouth of the Most High, And covered the earth as a mist. I dwelt in high places, And my throne is in the pillar of the cloud. Alone I compassed the circuit of the heaven, And walked in the depth of the abyss. (Ecclesiasticus 24:3-5)
**He created me **from the beginning of the world, And to the end I shall not fail. (Ecclesiasticus 24:4)

Wisdom says of herself: “I came forth from the mouth of the Most High” (the “Word” of God).

Which proves that what you said about the word of God being created is simply unbiblical. To say that the Word or Wisdom of God is created means it is not a part of Who God is or it is something “added” to God , which is wrong since His Wisdom/Word existed with Him for ever, before any creation.

As I said, you are lost in it. You didn’t even notice that you yourself quoted that Word was CREATED by GOD in the beginning. Check the underlined part. GOD existed even before he create WORD.

In other words, Wisdom/Word must be understood in light of how they were understood back then and even now because no one says the word of God is different than God in nature except the ones who have something they want to deny

And it doesn’t have to be true, becasue you said so. You are yet to prove WORD is WISDOM. Wisdom of God is not a creation. But Word is as you quoted.

because when we say “word” we do not mean the “uttered” words as you understood it but the Word is used as The Wisdom as shown in all the quotes i gave in previous posts. Here is another quote:

9:1. God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word,
Deus parentum et Domine misericordiae tuae qui fecisti omnia verbo tuo

9:2. And by thy wisdom hast appointed man, that he should have dominion over the creature that was made by thee

This is the Wisdom of Solomon in the OT. The Wisdom of God and Word of God are used interchangeably becaus eboth are not created and are eternal with God because they are His nature.

Since you only quoted, WORD WAS CRETED in the beginning, the discussion is over. I don’t think there is something left to discuss on it.

i’ll let the Bible say

Thats better. Let me ask you another Question.

DID DEVIL KNOW JESUS IS GOD?

 

[inJESUS]

I have given enough evidence of addition and fabrication done in NT like 1 John 5:7 or Mark 16:9-20. But you just ignore that and claim again that it is a ‘cult trick’!

Continue.

sir, before i answer your post, remember that Jesus left no book,He left disciples and a growing church, promising that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Jesus gave His church the authority to teach and educate and spread His message, inaddition to sending apostles and prophets to spread His teaching after He left. I believe in this church and in the Books it compiled and the tradition it preserved since the first century.

What is the problem with 1 John 5:7? it is not found in some Greek manuscripts? and this proves it is an “invention”?why forget that the majority of old Latin manuscripts have it? why forget that 1 John 5:7-8 is found in the Old Latin Vulgate and Greek Vulgate (90-150 A.D.), plus the Syriac Peshiito (150 A.D. What if it were also found in many first century church lectionaries? (Lectionaries were used in churches for readings and liturgy for church services especially for special days of the year. They are akin to the responsive readings which we find in today’s hymn books.) Tatian’s Diatesseron was a harmony of the four gospels written about 150 A.D. When Taitian was writing the book of John, he had referenced 1 John 5:7.

If 1 John 5:7-8 did not exist in the originals, then how could they have been quoted by the church fathers if it was non-existent? A simple question of logic.

Tertullian, for example, quoted it in the second century and Cyprian (258 AD) writes: "The Lord says, ‘I and the Father are one’ and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one’.Priscillian (385 AD) cites it: As John says “and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.”
the Varimadum (380 AD) states: “And John the Evangelist says, . . . ‘And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one’.”

Cassian (435 AD), Cassiodorus (580 AD), and a host of other African and Western bishops in subsequent centuries have cited it. Therefore, we see that the reading has massive and ancient textual support apart from the Greek witnesses. Saying that because some manuscipts do not have it means it is an invention is an argument from silence.

what about Marc? some “scholars” argue against it and others no. Again, it will be an argument from silence because if some manuscripts donot have it, the church fathers quoted it:

Irenaeus (both in Greek and Latin), Tertullian, and Justin Martyr as early as the second century; by Hippolytus (see Tregelles, An Account of the Printed Text, p. 252), by Vincentius at the seventh Council of Carthage, by the Acta Pilati, the Apostolic Constitutions, and apparently by Celsus in the third; by Aphraates (in a Syriac Homily dated A.D. 337), the Syriac Table of Canons, Eusebius, Macarius Magnes, Didymus, the Syraic Acts of the Apostles, Leontius, Ps.-Ephraem. Jerome, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, in the fourth; by Leo, Nestorius, Cyril of Alexandria, Victor of Antioch, Patricius, Marius Mercator, in the fifth; by Hesychius, Gregentius, Prosper, John, abp. of Thessalonica, and Modestus, in the fifth and sixth.

You can take one side or the other,i personally believe in what God says, and not what some scholars or cult leaders say

 

[adrift]

Continue.

I am a Sunni and are you teaching me what we teach? Here you said WORD means MIND OF GOD. Jesus (pbuh) was the Word/Mind of God. Can mind of God have ignorance on anything? Why Jesus/Mind of God needed a teacher? Why Jesus (pbuh) didn’t know end of time? Why he didn’t know the woman touched him who got healed by touching his cloak? Why he didn’t know the season of fig tree? Becasue he wasn’t Mind of GOD.

As I said, you are lost in it. You didn’t even notice that you yourself quoted that Word was CREATED by GOD in the beginning. Check the underlined part. GOD existed even before he create WORD.

And it doesn’t have to be true, becasue you said so. You are yet to prove WORD is WISDOM. Wisdom of God is not a creation. But Word is as you quoted.

Jesus was both God and Man.

472
This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man,"101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave."103

Christ’s soul and His human knowledge

Since you only quoted, WORD WAS CRETED in the beginning, the discussion is over. I don’t think there is something left to discuss on it.

The quotes from the bible are not accurately identified. They are from Sir. 24, 3. It is understood that this refers to Mary

1 [1-27] In this chapter Wisdom speaks in the first person, describing her origin, her dwelling place in Israel, and the reward she gives her followers. As in Prov 8 Wisdom is described as a being who comes from God and is distinct from him. While we do not say with certainty that this description applies to a personal being, it does foreshadow the beautiful doctrine of the Word of God later developed in St. John’s Gospel (John 1:1-14). In the liturgy this chapter is applied to the Blessed Virgin because of her constant and intimate association with Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom.

Quite clearly John says the Word was uncreated.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2
He was in the beginning with God.
3

 

[adrift]

Throughout the New Testament, we can find many references to Christ as being the Son of man and, also, the Son of God.

.

Son of Man
Son of God

 

[inJESUS]

Now please tell me, what do you understand of WORD in light of Bible.

the Word of God is eternal and uncreated since it existed with God before creation.This is what the Bible says.

Either you are still not correct with your question or you totally lost in the question. You only said Quran is the word of God for Muslims and I agreed that. But now you said ‘Gods Word but not Quran’.

 

[inJESUS]

Continue.

I am a Sunni and are you teaching me what we teach?

 

[Khalfan]

sir, before i answer your post, remember that Jesus left no book,He left disciples and a growing church, promising that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Jesus gave His church the authority to teach and educate and spread His message, inaddition to sending apostles and prophets to spread His teaching after He left. I believe in this church and in the Books it compiled and the tradition it preserved since the first century.

What is the problem with 1 John 5:7? it is not found in some Greek manuscripts? and this proves it is an “invention”?why forget that the majority of old Latin manuscripts have it? why forget that 1 John 5:7-8 is found in the Old Latin Vulgate and Greek Vulgate (90-150 A.D.), plus the Syriac Peshiito (150 A.D. What if it were also found in many first century church lectionaries? (Lectionaries were used in churches for readings and liturgy for church services especially for special days of the year. They are akin to the responsive readings which we find in today’s hymn books.) Tatian’s Diatesseron was a harmony of the four gospels written about 150 A.D. When Taitian was writing the book of John, he had referenced 1 John 5:7.

If 1 John 5:7-8 did not exist in the originals, then how could they have been quoted by the church fathers if it was non-existent? A simple question of logic.

I do understand that simple logic. The question is not that 1 john 5:7 ever exisetd. It existed. That’s logical. The logic/answer that I am looking for is, What really existed.

Is it, water, blood and spirit

or

is it, father, son and holy spirit

Tertullian, for example, quoted it in the second century and Cyprian (258 AD) writes: "The Lord says, ‘I and the Father are one’ and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one’.Priscillian (385 AD) cites it: As John says “and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.”
the Varimadum (380 AD) states: “And John the Evangelist says, . . . ‘And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one’.”

Cassian (435 AD), Cassiodorus (580 AD), and a host of other African and Western bishops in subsequent centuries have cited it. Therefore, we see that the reading has massive and ancient textual support apart from the Greek witnesses. Saying that because some manuscipts do not have it means it is an invention is an argument from silence.

Do you think none of those scholars of NIV, NASB, GWT, ASV, BBE, DBY, WEY, WEB, ESV, CEV, NCV, DT, HCSB, NIRV and TNIV didn’t know about it? Which are the catholic versions of Bible? Please tell me, so I can refer those only for next time.

what about Marc? some “scholars” argue against it and others no. Again, it will be an argument from silence because if some manuscripts donot have it, the church fathers quoted it:

Irenaeus (both in Greek and Latin), Tertullian, and Justin Martyr as early as the second century; by Hippolytus (see Tregelles, An Account of the Printed Text, p. 252), by Vincentius at the seventh Council of Carthage, by the Acta Pilati, the Apostolic Constitutions, and apparently by Celsus in the third; by Aphraates (in a Syriac Homily dated A.D. 337), the Syriac Table of Canons, Eusebius, Macarius Magnes, Didymus, the Syraic Acts of the Apostles, Leontius, Ps.-Ephraem. Jerome, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, in the fourth; by Leo, Nestorius, Cyril of Alexandria, Victor of Antioch, Patricius, Marius Mercator, in the fifth; by Hesychius, Gregentius, Prosper, John, abp. of Thessalonica, and Modestus, in the fifth and sixth.

You can take one side or the other,i personally believe in what God says, and not what some scholars or cult leaders say

.))The most reliable early manuscriptsother ancient witnesses

Let me find out what was those “most reliable early manuscripts” and who was those “ancient witnesses”. Since it questioning your faith, you too do a research on that. Something may come up. As an outsider, a non-Christian, this seems to me a serious problem in preserving Bible and the consequent Christian faith. Let’s find out if they too were ‘cult leaders’. If they were, your preaching is vain, your faith is vain.

 

[adrift]

Is it, water, blood and spirit

or

is it, father, son and holy spirit

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

2 [6-12] Water and blood (1 John 5:6) refers to Christ’s baptism (Matthew 3:16-17) and to the shedding of his blood on the cross (John 19:34). The Spirit was present at the baptism (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32, 34). The testimony to Christ as the Son of God is confirmed by divine witness (1 John 5:7-9), greater by far than the two legally required human witnesses (Deut 17:6). To deny this is to deny God’s truth; cf John 8:17-18. The gist of the divine witness or testimony is that eternal life (1 John 5:11-12) is given in Christ and nowhere else. To possess the Son is not acceptance of a doctrine but of a person who lives now and provides life.

2 [9-20] This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent. Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark. It is a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, reflecting, in particular, traditions found in Luke 24 and John 20. The Shorter Ending: Found after Mark 16:8 before the Longer Ending in four seventh-to-ninth-century Greek manuscripts as well as in one Old Latin version, where it appears alone without the Longer Ending. The Freer Logion: Found after v 14 in a fourth-fifth century manuscript preserved in the Freer Gallery of Art, Washington, DC, this ending was known to Jerome in the fourth century. It reads: "And they excused themselves, saying, "This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things dominated by the spirits [or, does not allow the unclean things dominated by the spirits to grasp the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal your righteousness now.’ They spoke to Christ. And Christ responded to them, "The limit of the years of Satan’s power is completed, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who sinned I was handed over to death, that they might return to the truth and no longer sin, in order that they might inherit the spiritual and incorruptible heavenly glory of righteousness. But . . . .’ "

3 [20] THE SHORTER ENDING - [And they reported all the instructions briefly to Peter’s companions. Afterwards Jesus himself, through them, sent forth from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen.]

 

[dessert]

Continue.

Thats better. Let me ask you another Question.

DID DEVIL KNOW JESUS IS GOD?

I don’t know what you teach but Satan did know Jesus is the Son of God. He knew because of the temptation, he acknowledged Jesus power, “You could turn this rock into bread if you but said the word” Satan doesn’t know all does not have wisdom.
He was not trying to kill Jesus but he would have liked Jesus, the son of man to die before his appointed “hour”. But did he know Jesus was going to die for the sin of man? In the garden God told him my seed(Son) will crush you. Or/ I will defeat you . At an appointed time.

Satan was/is, the first one ? an archangel created by God and fallen as he had a will and he took other angels with him.

Michael is also and archangel, definately knows Jesus is God as this is the wisdom he chose to be with. And he chose light not darkness of mind.
Dessert

 

[dessert]

I do understand that simple logic. The question is not that 1 john 5:7 ever exisetd. It existed. That’s logical. The logic/answer that I am looking for is, What really existed.

Is it, water, blood and spirit
**
Wow! now you have it ! **:extrahappy:

or

is it, father, son and holy spirit
And again you have it!

.

I can’t believe this, are you getting this on your own and I am not being sarcastic? :extrahappy: :dancing:

I have to go to work in 5 minutes will get back tomorrow, sorry it did not respond to last reply you posted to me, my appologies.
Dessert