What does it mean to be "the Son of God?"

[Khalfan]

in other words, God failed to preserve His word as He said. Did Muhammad teach you that God is not serious about what he says?if not, then how can you reconcile the idea of a JUST and POWERFUL God with corruption that proves He is neither Just (for letting people mislead billions) nor Powerful( for letting weak humans corrupt what He said will not be corrupt).Just what idea of God are you preaching?

 

[Khalfan]

Other prophets affirm that the book of Moses was still available during their day:

"They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read … On the second day … they gathered around Ezra the scribe to** give attention to the words of the Law.** They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that the Israelites were to … Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God …" Nehemiah 8:13-14,18

This was written after Jeremiah 8:8 and no one understood it as you did.

Lastly, and since Jeremiah is a true prophet from God, he did not question God’s Word as cult leaders do that’s why he wrote:

They said, ‘Come, let’s make plans against Jeremiah; for the teaching of the law by the priest WILL NOT BE LOST, nor will counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says.’" Jeremiah 18:18

What Jeremish meant is that the scribes were misleading the people either through their oral traditions and/or the writing down of erroneous interpretations of the Law. A similar situation existed in the time of Lord Jesus :

“Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, ‘Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!’ Jesus replied, ‘And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? … Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.”’” Matthew 15:1-3,6-9

Jeremiah says something similar:
The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have." Jeremiah 8:9

When one read in context ,he comes to a good conclusion that does not insult God who said He preserves His word.

Jer 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

It wan’t interpretation that falsified. It was the law that got falsified. As you have said, it is a (one of many other) logical problem, how the verse can remain in the Bible.

Putting scripture aside,let’s use some logic. Can corrupt people write that they corrupted their scriptures? where the Jews idiots for not deleting the “crime weapon” (= accusation) from their scriptures?

I think you must ask this to any of your scholar. I still don’t understand, the scholars of NIV said, Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition and how they still kept it in their Bible, even after they know it is belong to it. So, you should ask your scholars, which law was that, that got falsified, which prophet Jeremiah mentioned.

 

[Willma]

What does it mean to be “the Son of God?”

Having a very powerful father! Dont mess with his son!

 

[Khalfan]

Jesus changed the interpretation

 

[Khalfan]

What does it mean to be “the Son of God?”

Having a very powerful father! Dont mess with his son!

What happened with your Muslim friend? Any further discussion?

 

[Khalfan]

the Word of God is eternal and uncreated since it existed with God before creation.This is what the Bible says.

I am not asking what is WORD OF GOD, but WHAT IS ‘WORD’?

such topics need a good command of English language and theological terminology. Since english is my third language, am doing my best so bear with me

When i said (not quran), i meant : not the book and ink you have with you. I meant the Word of God that existed with Him for ever.This, as well, is not an alien topic in Islam as i will show shortly after.

OK.

it’s not me. It’s God’s revelation in both OT and NT as i quoted, since they continue each other. Since the Quran is not a continuation of both but a personal revelation to an arab that rejects both as “corrupt”,idon’t find it strange that Muhammad did not teach what the true previous prophets taught. In other words, i do not base my belief on someone who questions God’s words, but on previous scriptures that continue each others. From these scriptures, i quoted the Word/Wisdom as revealed by God through prophets in the OT and NT.

the NT teaches that Jesus is the Wisdom of God. Satisfied now or should i elaborate more?

didnt i give a quote where a parallele is established between Word and Wisdom? which shows that both are eternal with God? whether Wisdom is IN Logos or Logos IN Wisdom is surely not what am arguing.Am saying that whether we call Jesus Logos or Wisdom or both,it means eternal and uncreated. Clear now?

And you quoted already that WISDOM of GOd is a creation.

**He created me **from the beginning of the world, And to the end I shall not fail. (Ecclesiasticus 24:4)

How possibly wisdom of God can be a creation? Wisdom of God is eternal.

Now this is taken from an Islam site:

Surely the Qur’ân is the very word of Allah. It was **not created **and therefore not susceptible to extinction. Nor is it an attribute to a created being which would necessarily come to an end.

allaahuakbar.net/scholars/zayd_al-qayrawaanee_al-malikee.htm

and:

Question:
Talk about the trial of the alleged creation of the Holy Qur’an
Answer :
During the era of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, and even on the time before his birth, the trial of the creation of the Holy Qur’an appeared, and it was brought about by the Mu’tazilites. They claimed that Allah’s Word is created like any other creatures of Allah. They denied the idea that the Holy Qur’an is a Divine Attribute; they claimed that it is not attached to Allah, rather it is a stand-alone creature. They held Allah’s Word on equal footing with other creatures, such as the sky, cattle, rain … etc.; as all these, according to them, are created, whether animate or inanimate.

Undoubtedly, this fallacy would entail other subsequent invalid results. This would give way to the wrong claim of the resemblance between Allah’s Word and that of people, since both, according to them, were created. This would go against Allah’s saying: “His is the Creation and Commandment” (7:54)

The commandment cannot be made except through speaking. If Allah’s Word is created, thus, there will be only one possibility of creation without the existence of the commandment. This will even lead to the invalidation of the meaning of the Holy Qur’an. Other consequences of this allegation were elaborated by scholars in the related detailed references.

Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, as well as other scholars, suffered from trials on account of this claim. This happened when Al-Ma’mun, the then Caliph of Muslims, adopted this claim and took on himself to disseminate it among people. When a ruler adopts a certain ideology, it becomes difficult for his subjects to renounce it. Thus, only a few courageous men could announce their renunciation of this claim, among whom was Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, may Allah shower His Mercy upon him. He was subjected to severe torture and imprisonment. However his unyielding attitude protected the belief of Ahlu As-Sunnah from contamination with the claim of the creation of the Holy Qur’an. Thanks to Imam Ahmad’s steadfastness, the belief that the Holy Qur’an is Allah’s Word remained firmly rooted in people’s hearts.

qurancomplex.org/qfatwa/display.asp?f=24&l=eng&ps=subFtwa

Your answers can be applied here. Here ‘word’ doesn’t mean the ink or book, but the concept/wisdom in Quran.

 

[Khalfan]

seems yes cuz in my last post, i showed you that Sunni Islam teach that Allah’s word is uncreated and it is blasphemous to say otherwise

Word means Wisdom, not the utterred sound.

i did not say “it means”. I said that Word is not the word you as a human utter because God is not supposed to have a mouth like us that utters the same sounds like humans;unless you agree with Salafi that Allah has a real mouth and face and hands ecc.

Great. Now we both agree each other.

you are mixing things with the assertion that Jesus was indeed ignorant. So when He asks : who do you think i am, in your opinion Jesus did not know who He is because He asked? as if questions have no other ends? furthermore,and again, do not forget that Jesus was a human as well. Now this is another topic and it is tiring to jump from point to another one. Yes Jesus is the Word and the Word is uncreated. It is NOT the Father yet it is equal with Him in nature because it existed with Him for ever, is uncreated, is divine, is eternal, through it everything into existence came.

No problem. We will talk on that later. Just tell me, how WISDOM of GOD is a created being?

Wisdom speaks,

**He created me **from the beginning of the world, And to the end I shall not fail. (Ecclesiasticus 24:4)



Was he wisdomless before creating wisdom? Please note that there is no begenning for eternity of GOD.

here Wisdom is talking.Surely the word “created” does not mean God created His Wisdom.It’s in the sense that it was eternally begotten as God’s nature.

Was God wisdomless before he begetting Wisdom into his nature? Don’t say Blasphemy, becasue I don’t say that, but your Bible say that.

i don’t have to prove anything the Bible is clear : both are uncreated, divine and eternal. There is a parallelism btween Wisdom and Word in the Bible as shown fromboth OT and NT.Equating them is the least am interested in because what am talking about is the nature of God’s Wisdom and God’s Word. Both are uncreated, divine and eternal sowhen the Bible says Jesus is the Word (John) or Wisdom (John,Paul),it means He is eternal ,divine and uncreated.

It took some time, but now I understood, how you interpret Word and Wisdom. Like you quoted from the Islamic site, we too do that.

But there was something created or begotten. Please answer me for the above question.

no wonder you are Sunni you are attached to letters.It was Wisdom speaking,again,not Word and of course God “created” it in the sense of eternal birth and not a creation in time and space otherwise God was Wisdomless at some point which is against what the Bible says

I don’t understand that actually. How do you say ETERNAL BIRTH? Birth is begenning of something. Eternity is strait opposite to it. Can there be an eternal starting and an eternal ending?

 

[Khalfan]

2 [6-12] Water and blood (1 John 5:6) refers to Christ’s baptism (Matthew 3:16-17) and to the shedding of his blood on the cross (John 19:34). The Spirit was present at the baptism (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32, 34). The testimony to Christ as the Son of God is confirmed by divine witness (1 John 5:7-9), greater by far than the two legally required human witnesses (Deut 17:6). To deny this is to deny God’s truth; cf John 8:17-18. The gist of the divine witness or testimony is that eternal life (1 John 5:11-12) is given in Christ and nowhere else. To possess the Son is not acceptance of a doctrine but of a person who lives now and provides life.

Why don’t answer my question instead?

What was originally written?

Was it, water, blood and spirit

or

Was it, father, son and holy spirit

 

[Khalfan]

you are mixing things with the assertion that Jesus was indeed ignorant. So when He asks : who do you think i am, in your opinion Jesus did not know who He is because He asked? as if questions have no other ends? furthermore,and again, do not forget that Jesus was a human as well. Now this is another topic and it is tiring to jump from point to another one. Yes Jesus is the Word and the Word is uncreated. It is NOT the Father yet it is equal with Him in nature because it existed with Him for ever, is uncreated, is divine, is eternal, through it everything into existence came.

What about this,

The quotes from the bible are not accurately identified. They are from Sir. 24, 3. It is understood that this refers to Mary

1 [1-27] In this chapter Wisdom speaks in the first person, describing her origin, her dwelling place in Israel, and the reward she gives her followers. As in Prov 8 Wisdom is described as a being who comes from God and is distinct from him. While we do not say with certainty that this description applies to a personal being, it does foreshadow the beautiful doctrine of the Word of God later developed in St. John’s Gospel (John 1:1-14). **In the liturgy this chapter is applied to the Blessed Virgin because of her constant and intimate association with Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom. **

usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach24.htm#foot1

 

[Gill79]

What does it mean to be “the Son of God?”

Having a very powerful father! Dont mess with his son!

LOL

 

[Khalfan]

LOL

How do you understand ETERNAL BIRTH that InJesus said? Birth is a begenning of something. Eternity is strait opposite to it. Can there be an eternal starting or an eternal ending?

 

[Gill79]

How do you understand ETERNAL BIRTH that InJesus said? Birth is a begenning of something. Eternity is strait opposite to it. Can there be an eternal starting or an eternal ending?

hello

I believe Jesus as the Lord come from everlasting to enterlity.

the name JESUS was given to him in birth but from everlasting he was not ever named Jesus as it human relate name.
from all enterlity was called the Lord. since the birth in flesh, the Lord named Jesus since birth so the title JESUS as he will forever known because .

JESUS come from JOSHUA
or YESHAU (misspell) meaning Salavtion,the Appointed One, The Messiah, he who save etc

as I understand it, the Lord from all entirilty came down and became flesh named JESUS as He can cos his body not that of man but Spirit.
Gillian

 

[Gill79]

by the way I believe wisdom had her beginning and yet have no beginning

very crondatiorty sounding to human viewpoint of earth of course it DEFILY is crondation. but since it from God viewpoint of His abitly i can see how that possible not condrnatity in one full stop sentenace.

gillian

 

[Khalfan]

 

[Gill79]

let just talk about Wisdom, nothing else.

we know what it mean we all posse wisdom in us, brain abitly to think, thoughts so speak etc

since we created from wombs. so there the wisdom in us it abilty to know right and wrong.

agreement on that God from forever with no beginning.

agreement on we had our beginnings

u know the meaning of Portain, for exmaple one have whole meat on his plate and u ask for bit of it. he say okay so he cut bit of the meat and give it to you so there u have an protin of his meat.

Wisdom had no beginning in God as it the fact in possion of God.

Wisdom mean knowledge obvious.

wisdom the knowledge of God are manifest through what he created, his action.

the source of wisdom(whole meat) in God no beginning

through God`s action of Creation man so (portins as from) of wisdom can be said, without crondatiy she have her beginnings yet not beginning.

in same way view of Jesus had his beginning yet had no beginning as God.

was begotten(since birth Man) and yet not begotten since he is God

God is old as Anicent of Days hisyears too many to count yet he not old
in sense of man age asscuited with decayness rust

Proverbs 8.23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was

Gillian

 

[Khalfan]

let just talk about Wisdom, nothing else.

we know what it mean we all posse wisdom in us, brain abitly to think, thoughts so speak etc

I agree.

since we created from wombs. so there the wisdom in us it abilty to know right and wrong.

I agree.

agreement on that God from forever with no beginning.

agreement on we had our beginnings

I agree.

u know the meaning of Portain, for exmaple one have whole meat on his plate and u ask for bit of it. he say okay so he cut bit of the meat and give it to you so there u have an protin of his meat.

I agree.

Wisdom had no beginning in God as it the fact in possion of God.

I agree.

Wisdom mean knowledge obvious.

I agree.

wisdom the knowledge of God are manifest through what he created, his action.

I agree.

the source of wisdom(whole meat) in God no beginning

No. Wisdom is the source. It is with God as his nature. It is meaning of his existence. If no Wisdom, no God exist.

through God`s action of Creation man so (portins as from) of wisdom can be said, without crondatiy she have her beginnings yet not beginning.

If it is not on basis of any Bible teaching, I can give my own expalanation on it which you wont agree. On what basis you said this?

in same way view of Jesus had his beginning yet had no beginning as God.

was begotten(since birth Man) and yet not begotten since he is God

As creations, every creation have a begenning,

God is old as Anicent of Days hisyears too many to count yet he not old in sense of man age asscuited with decayness rust

Proverbs 8.23

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was

Gillian

Except God alone.

 

[adrift]

Why don’t answer my question instead?

What was originally written?

Was it, water, blood and spirit

or

Was it, father, son and holy spirit

Your question is interesting. After doing some research, I find that the answer is inconclusive. There are those who say it was an insertion. There are those who provide evidence that it was not. So you question depends on which expert you want to believe. I find it doesn’t matter because to me it means the same. I know you see it differently.

 

[dessert]

Your question is interesting. After doing some research, I find that the answer is inconclusive. There are those who say it was an insertion. There are those who provide evidence that it was not. So you question depends on which expert you want to believe. I find it doesn’t matter because to me it means the same. I know you see it differently.

The water and blood flowing from Jesus side is what washed the stain of sin of man away, This is witnessed the BIBLE SAYSJesus turned away the fourth cup of wine at the passover but partook of the fourth cup of vinegar at the cross. He said he would not drink wine till his body was glorified with the Father. And when He would be one again with the Father He would send the Holy Spirit of truth.

Kalfan is trying to seperate everything in order to confuse and make it seem more complicated.

Just like at the first tree but just say no to the deceiver.

Dessert

 

[dessert]

No. Wisdom is the source. It is with God as his nature. It is meaning of his existence. If no Wisdom, no God exist.

NO NO NO
**
**
IF NO GOD NO WISDOM EXISTS**
Read Proverbs 8; 23 again please
No NO NO You are wrong!!!
“From of old I was poured forth, at the first before the earth!”
Hebrew meaning born.
read on to verse 27
Here the pluralty of divine persons is foreshadowed which was afterward to be fully revealed when Wisdom in the Person of Jesus Christ became incarnate.
Wisdom is of divine origin, existed before all things, period.
Read on to the book of Sirach, you will only find this I think in a Catholic Bible. Sirach 1;1-8
7;" It is the Lord; he created her, has seen her and taken note of her, …" 8;he has poured her forth upon all his works, upon every living thing according to his bounty;…"**

As creations, every creation have a begenning,

Except God alone.

**The Lord is the source and preserver of Wisdom, (1)
he created her from eternity, before all things else(4-7)
all his works reflect wisdom (2 , 8) **

You will not win Khalfan

**
" IT IS FINNISHED"**

DESSERT

 

[dessert]

**
IT IS FINISHED

IT IS WITNESSED**