What factor in 2004 makes folks feel most unable to cope with larger families?

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sparkle:
The American family is the richest in the world. We have more than any other culture materially. But the main reason people have trouble with “lots of kids” is all due to selfishness, nothing more. It “puts them out” too much. We, as parents are all guilty of this. Sure we struggle, but selfishness is the reason people resort to birth control in the first place, in my view.

“Struggling” for most Americans means yes, struggling to get the basics like you say, but struggling admist their homes where each child has their own room, parents have 2 cars (financed - I might add), satellite T.V., they have consumer debt up to yin yang, etc. etc. Go to Mexico and observe families with 8-10 children. They struggle far less than we do, and have much less too.
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Sparkle,

I am sure that there are many people out there who fit your description of “struggling families”… but you must realize that there are many more who are legitimately struggling too. And you don’t need to go to Mexico to see an example.

The way the world works, the economy etc makes it very difficult for a family to exist on one income. Take my husband and I for example. He has a career in the military bringing in about $45,000 a year (Canadian)… we own a home (not large or elaborate by any standard), we have one car (paid for) which is a 1994 model, and we don’t currently carry any large debt (credit cards etc).

But we live from paycheck to paycheck. We do not spend money on “extras” like a latte a day… hubby eats lunch at home…we rent movies instead of going to the theater…we only get new clothes when we are in need of something (like hubby’s one pair of jeans gets a massive hole)…

So if any extra expenses come up (repairs, yard maintenance etc) it HAS to go on credit.

So tell me how the average one income family is supposed to afford to raise children if they don’t have a bunch of “extras” like vacations and fancy cars to give up?

I cannot imagine how we would come up with the money for school registration/supplies, field trips, clothes, etc…

Finella
 
The decline of religious values in the world generally, with the advent of birth control, feminist ideology, abortions and the sexual revolution. All these have greatly devalued having children as an esteemed goal in life
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*I think a lot of the above have contributed but I also think financial burdens put upon parents is a very real problem…the tuition for Catholic schools is almost out of sight, dental bills are something else and both parents have to work just to make ends meet…it is any wonder that some don’t want large families!
If we could ever get back to the good old days when Moms were home and very happy being the fine women they were. No sexual revolution, No "pill’…I think that started it… Just families loving God and Country…Am I deluding myself?:confused: WE CAN STILL PRAY AND
DREAM, CAN’T WE?! Annunciata:banghead:
 
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Finella:
The way the world works, the economy etc makes it very difficult for a family to exist on one income.
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I’m sorry --not trying to cause any arguments here, but I totally and completely disagree with the above statement.

I think it is completely possible to live on one income, if folks (in general) had their priorities straight. That’s what it boils down to in my opinion.

My mom and I just had a discussion re this very issue recently, and she said it was just plain and simply un-heard of in her day for women to work, period. They stayed home and raised the kids. Period. Now, Americans have gotten themselves used to certain standards, that is why so many women say they “have” to work nowadays. Sure, they “have” to work, to support the lifestyle they’ve gotten trapped into. Also, men have become weak, and unable to provide like our fathers did. They have gotten too dependent on us women, don’t you gals think so? I do.

How I wish sometimes I lived in my parents day and age!
 
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sparkle:
I’m sorry --not trying to cause any arguments here, but I totally and completely disagree with the above statement.

I think it is completely possible to live on one income, if folks (in general) had their priorities straight. That’s what it boils down to in my opinion.
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Don’t worry, I am not taking your statement as an argument, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Yes, it is completely possible for some families to live on one income, if they get their priorities straight.

But if you wouldn’t mind addressing the rest of my other post, I would be intersted to see how my priorities could be shifted so we could afford to have even one child.

And just to let you know, we bought our home during a really good buyer’s market and got a great mortgage rate. If we were to try and downsize we would not be able to get much less than a total dump in a really bad area of the city in order to save any money.

We have even looked into renting an apartment…but again, not much savings. I actually have friends who rent who pay more than our mortgage. So we look at our home as our one investment.

I look forward to hearing your opinions:)

Finella
 
Annunciata said:
* If we could ever get back to the good old days when Moms were home and very happy being the fine women they were. No sexual revolution, No "pill’…I think that started it… Just families loving God and Country…Am I deluding myself?:confused: WE CAN STILL PRAY AND
DREAM, CAN’T WE?! Annunciata:banghead:*
I don’t think you are deluding yourself… but we may not see the reversal in our lifetime.

of course we can still pray and dream! how else will we change things? Hopefully we can get things back to “normal” for future generations so they can know the simple joys of stay at home mom’s being the norm and kids just getting to be kids…

Finella
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Finella:
Yes, it is completely possible for some families to live on one income, if they get their priorities straight.

But if you wouldn’t mind addressing the rest of my other post, I would be intersted to see how my priorities could be shifted so we could afford to have even one child.

And just to let you know, we bought our home during a really good buyer’s market and got a great mortgage rate. If we were to try and downsize we would not be able to get much less than a total dump in a really bad area of the city in order to save any money.

We have even looked into renting an apartment…but again, not much savings. I actually have friends who rent who pay more than our mortgage. So we look at our home as our one investment.

I look forward to hearing your opinions:)

Finella
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I don’t think you need to shift your priorities as much as your attitude. Why so pessimistic? Let me say that I am a mother of 4 (so far). I stay at home with them. Between my husband’s main job and his second job, we end up with about 2,400 a month in take home pay. We have a house payment for a house that is old, but pretty decent sized with some land. We have 1 car payment (one is a 1993 and paid for, the other is a 1997, bought used). Add up insurance, electric, gas, phone, internet (my husbands 2nd job is online) tuition, etc, and sometimes, I can’t believe we actually eat. But you know what? We do. We never go hungry. We trust in the Lord. Sure, we go through tough times, but somehow, everything always works out. I look at the bills each month and wonder, how will I manage this time? But no matter what, God always sees us through, and we are still standing. A small raise here, an unexpected windfall there, a tragedy, a blessing, a child, a roof, an infestation, a celebration. Life is full of things that cannot be planned or prepared for. There is always something else around the corner. Do not worry so much about money. Do you have love? Do you have faith? Do you trust God? Put him in charge, quit crunching numbers, and follow Him! Do I still worry sometimes? Sure, I am human. But the fact remains that no matter how bleak things may look on paper, we always get along. And I cannot imagine how horribly stressful and unhappy life would be without my children. Imagine having all those money worries without a couple of giggles and "I love you Mommy"s to brighten your days. 😉
 
Back to the original thread starter, I voted for the last option. I think that there are many many factors affecting family size and attitudes about large families in the 2000s. Many are listed. I think the main ones are greed, selfishness, and a steady decline of morality and values in this country. We can’t even get “Catholics” to stand up for the right to life! What does that say about our culture???
 
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legeorge:
I don’t think you need to shift your priorities as much as your attitude. Why so pessimistic?

We trust in the Lord. Sure, we go through tough times, but somehow, everything always works out. I look at the bills each month and wonder, how will I manage this time? But no matter what, God always sees us through, and we are still standing. A small raise here, an unexpected windfall there, a tragedy, a blessing, a child, a roof, an infestation, a celebration. Life is full of things that cannot be planned or prepared for. There is always something else around the corner. Do not worry so much about money. Do you have love? Do you have faith? Do you trust God? Put him in charge, quit crunching numbers, and follow Him! Do I still worry sometimes? Sure, I am human… 😉
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Sorry White Dove…I really don’t mean to be a thread hog…this will be my last response on this issue…if anyone wishes to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me:) .

Now, to legeorge…

Maybe I am pessimistic, I don’t know. But at this time I feel it is our (mine and my hubby’s) responsibility to ensure that we could actually provide for any future children.(by this I mean healthy food, clothing, shelter, medical and dental care, and education)

At this point I am awaiting a decision on a disability pension just so I can afford to treat my chronic illness. I could not physically take on a pregnancy or child right now… (but if it does happen, we will deal with it, knowing it is truly God’s will for us.)

I am a firm believer that along with Faith, God gave us intelligence and the ability to make decisions for ourselves. It is definitely a struggle to decipher what is our will and what is God’s will though.

I am really happy that things are working out for you and your family. I hope my husband and I can follow in your footsteps:)

Finella
 
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TreeHugger:
for those of you paying the big bucks to send your kids to Catholic elementary or secondary schools…what about homeschooling?
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I was homeschooled for 6 years and this is my first year back at school. Yes my parents are paying the “big bucks” to send my sister and I to Catholic high school. Homeschooling doesn’t work for everyone. If it does, great! But a lot of times, sending your kids to a good Catholic school is just a better option!
 
To answer the original question, it’s because somewhere along the way, our society has bought into the idea that in order to be happy, things must be easy.
 
One reason for large families, especially in the midwest, was for labor. Think about it, up until 30-35 years ago many people made their living on the farm. Six to 12 kids makes a great labor force. Modern agriculture now allows one man to do what it took 5 to do in many cases.

Also, our desire for stuff has diluded alot of people into thinking they can not afford more. My wife and I finally got it right and started paying off debt. It is amazing how much money is left over. In 7 months (probably less) we will have only our house and 1 student loan to pay off. BTW we opted for high speed internet over cable:) One channel is enough.:rolleyes:

Thanks
Eric
 
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Saraphim:
Homeschooling doesn’t work for everyone. If it does, great! But a lot of times, sending your kids to a good Catholic school is just a better option!
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When is it a better option? The reason i’m pushing this issue is because most of my friends refuse to even consider homeschooling because they are determined to have careers. I think in some instances, parents selfishly deny even the option of homeschooling because they want their careers. IMHO, sending your kids to Catholic school where you are paying tuition is a priviledge, and not a necessity, when other options like homeschooling are available.
BTW, i’m from Canada, where we have free Catholic schools for elementary and secondary education. We also have private Catholic schools, which people pay for. let me tell you…having been raised in the free Catholic school system here, the religious education is a joke. i’d much rather homeschool my children to ensure they learn correctly the teachings of the church, and Catholic moral teachings.

AND in answer to the posted question of this thread…The problem is that people do not keep in focus the following question and purpose for their life:
“What can I and my family do to help us achieve holiness?”. If you live every day asking yourself this question, especially when you are bombarded with selfish media campaigns, you can’t go wrong.
 
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legeorge:
I don’t think you need to shift your priorities as much as your attitude. Why so pessimistic? Let me say that I am a mother of 4 (so far). I stay at home with them. Between my husband’s main job and his second job, we end up with about 2,400 a month in take home pay. We have a house payment for a house that is old, but pretty decent sized with some land. We have 1 car payment (one is a 1993 and paid for, the other is a 1997, bought used). Add up insurance, electric, gas, phone, internet (my husbands 2nd job is online) tuition, etc, and sometimes, I can’t believe we actually eat. But you know what? We do. We never go hungry. We trust in the Lord. Sure, we go through tough times, but somehow, everything always works out. I look at the bills each month and wonder, how will I manage this time? But no matter what, God always sees us through, and we are still standing. A small raise here, an unexpected windfall there, a tragedy, a blessing, a child, a roof, an infestation, a celebration. Life is full of things that cannot be planned or prepared for. There is always something else around the corner. Do not worry so much about money. Do you have love? Do you have faith? Do you trust God? Put him in charge, quit crunching numbers, and follow Him! Do I still worry sometimes? Sure, I am human. But the fact remains that no matter how bleak things may look on paper, we always get along. And I cannot imagine how horribly stressful and unhappy life would be without my children. Imagine having all those money worries without a couple of giggles and "I love you Mommy"s to brighten your days. 😉
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What a blessing to read your post! It has been like this in our lives too! God always has provided for us and I know always will. I don’t look at it as a hardship or worry about money, even though sometimes we don’t have much. If God feeds and cares about the little sparrows, look at how much he loves us humans----right? Plus, I know I’m old-fashioned, but I feel worrying about money is the man’s job. That’s how I was raised and that’s how it always seems to work out for the best. I really recommend a fabulous book to all you ladies you can order from Barnes & Noble-that really has changed my life for the better. It’s called “Fascinating Womanhood” by Helen Andelin. It’s $6.50–a little paperback–and an excellent life-changing read!!!

God Bless~~
 
The decline of religous values and the economy are the two I voted for. Although I see a whole lot of million dollar homes going up around here with maybe 1 or 2 children I still believe that the people with religious values would love to have a lot of children but do not have the finances to have them. The people that have the finances build big homes on sand foundations, hope there is not a flood here.
 
If a couple has 2 or 10 kids, there will always be money concerns. I agree it is difficult to live on one income, as an alternative one of the spouses could possibly work part time if they desire a stay at home parent, I am a SAHM who would prefer to work part time, but due to our circumstances my husband is working full time and part time, seems to be working out fine though (thankfully hubby’s pt job isn’t too demanding)

My kids attend a Catholic school here in Canada, of course they aren’t perfect, yet I feel fortunate we have the opportunity to send our kids there tuition free right through high school considering the outragious tuition costs I here about in the US! Although, back when I was in high school there was tuition for half of high school.
 
It has to do with getting married older and people getting higher education (including women now), mostly. My feeling is, if you want a big family, have one. If you can provide food, clothes, shelter, and education for all of your kids and love and attention, then what is the problem? But many people cant. Some just like the feel of a small intimate family. There are 3 in mine although my parents wanted 4 my mom felt shes was too old. We could certainly afford more, but my mom didnt want to give birth past 35. Shes a stay at home mom who could easily give us attention but at this point in time,as much as i love babies, im glad we’re all old enough to take long vacations and things now. AS the oldest, at 15, such an age discrepancy would be kind of weird if my parents had a baby now. Its hard enough with the 5 year difference bet ween my brother and i…he cant listen to the music or watch the shows ido. Who cares how many kids people have if they love and support them? And as for putting yourself through college - my dad did and did very well. HOwever, is grades were terrible because he worked 3 jobs and had no time for studying. One of my bes tfirends family does not have a lot of money and want her to wrk…but she has processing issues and spends up to 8 hours on homework a night! and tahts public school! If you want your kidsto do well, working may not be an option. Not to say that if its necessary some people work very hard and pull it off. But if your parents can afford it, theres no problem with paying for your education.
 
I think that it is a combination of reasons. People are selfish & don’t even want one child at times because they feel that it will inconvenience their life style. Also, people that have more than 2 or 3 children have to live with all the opposition that is out there in our society. I have a friend who is expecting their 12th child (14th pregnancy–2 miscarriages) & was asked by someone at work-when he was going to get fixed—his answer was “it is working, why fix it”, God help the society where being pregnant is a curse rather than the blessing that God wanted it to be.(“Happy are the sterile, the wombs that never bore & the breasts that never nursed”)Luke 23:29
 
Frankly, I don’t see how it’s a luxery to want to provide properly for children. In my opinion stacking children like cord wood in a bed room is not my idea of providing properly for a child.
If one can’t provide the basics, health care, dental care, glasses, and clothes to EVERY child one has no business many children.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:
Frankly, I don’t see how it’s a luxery to want to provide properly for children. In my opinion stacking children like cord wood in a bed room is not my idea of providing properly for a child.
If one can’t provide the basics, health care, dental care, glasses, and clothes to EVERY child one has no business many children.
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Ditto!

I agree with both sides on this issue… if one does not have children because they would be an “inconvenience” then that is wrong. But if one has 10 or 12 (or even just one) without the means to provide properly, that is also wrong.

Yes we have to trust that the Lord will provide… but He will not do for us what we can do for ourselves. So if we know that we cannot provide (basics, not luxuries) then I feel it is wrong to assume that God will just step in and correct our bad choices.

Why do you think NFP is approved by the Church? Because it is recognized that not everyone has the proper health or financial situation to be parents. We are given the means to decide for ourselves how much responsibility we can take on…

So, if while using NFP properly we become pregnant, we can then be pretty sure that it is God’s will and He will then provide. But realize that people who have many children can be just as selfish in their motivation as those who have none.

Finella
 
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Finella:
Ditto!

I agree with both sides on this issue… if one does not have children because they would be an “inconvenience” then that is wrong. But if one has 10 or 12 (or even just one) without the means to provide properly, that is also wrong.

Yes we have to trust that the Lord will provide… but He will not do for us what we can do for ourselves. So if we know that we cannot provide (basics, not luxuries) then I feel it is wrong to assume that God will just step in and correct our bad choices.

Why do you think NFP is approved by the Church? Because it is recognized that not everyone has the proper health or financial situation to be parents. We are given the means to decide for ourselves how much responsibility we can take on…

So, if while using NFP properly we become pregnant, we can then be pretty sure that it is God’s will and He will then provide. But realize that people who have many children can be just as selfish in their motivation as those who have none.

Finella
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I dont have a problem with people who dont want kids either. Im not sure if I do. Some people dont want dogs because of the inconvenience. Yes, kids are different than dogs, but some people dont want to be responsible for another person, or just dont feel their lifestyle can accomodate a kid (like celebrities). Its everyones choice…you dont HAVE to have kids. Id rather people not have kids because they dont want them then have kids and not care for them.
 
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