What factor in 2004 makes folks feel most unable to cope with larger families?

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siamesecat:
Id rather people not have kids because they dont want them then have kids and not care for them.
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Good point, but it depends on the type of people we are talking about. If we are talking about married couples who would rather have things than raise children-------that is very sad. But that doesn’t mean that I would want them to have children with that attitude either.

If we are talking about single people, there is nothing wrong with not feeling a calling to the vocation of marriage. But, if one wants to be married, children are part and parcel to that…otherwise we get into the whole issue of contraception, abortion, and the purpose of marriage etc.

But, it is another story entirely if a couple wants children but either cannot conceive or decides that it wouldn’t be a good idea for whatever reason. (good reason).

The key is being open to life, peroid. If one is not open to life they have no business having sex or getting married. But that is only my opinion and people are free to make their own choices and live with the consequences…good or bad.

Having children is a very personal decision between man, wife and God… nobody else. There are so many factors that go into people’s decisions…we cannot assume to know what is in another’s heart.

I hope this thread is helpful to anyone just stopping by…

Finella
 
In my parish, I would say no factor. We have many large Hispanic families with plenty of babies and children at our Spanish Mass. They make less money than the other parishioners but seem to get by and still have big families. There is also a very strong bond between the children and their godparents. Also a strong bond between uncles, aunts, ETC. May God bless them.

Deacon Tony SFO
 
I put down “Desire for Material Goods” I see that in my neighbors. They can’t understand why we have 4 kids and are even more shocked when we don’t consider ourselves ‘done’

They ask how we can afford it. The answer is pretty easy if you don’t own the boat, the vacation cottage, the ATV’s and the Nintento is each kid’s room.
 
I think it’s partly attitudes & partly economics. I’m one of nine children the eldest is 32 and the youngest is 20. My mother worked until she got married. Now however mothers who stay at home are being made feel they are being selfish, not contributing to society, don’t have a ‘life’.

About being able to afford children - people do expect much more now. There is an interesting split in our family, Dad was on quite bad wages when we were young, but by the time the youngest two or three were nine or upwards money was better. There were nine children our house and we did sleep four to a room - bunk beds. We thought it was brilliant. It was a punishment in our house to be made go to bed in Mam/Dad’s room.

We had 5 sets of clothes - school clothes, which we changed as soon as we got home, sunday clothes, play clothes & really really old rags to use when we played in the forest cos we got filthy. These clothes were passed down so the sunday clothes of the eldest became the play clothes of the second etc. On the day before payday Mam would make really cheap dinners i.e. soup & mashed potato or an egg & mashed potato - the funny thing is they were our favourite dinners, we didn’t realise they were made cos they were cheap.

We were very happy & had great games. In fact myself & the older boys were more ‘content’ that the younger ones (who were properly taken care of by todays standards) were.

It did cost an awful lot when we went to College. My parents had to pay fees for the first four years (four boys) but then they cancelled College fees. When I was in College there was five of us in College at the same time. We all worked parttime and summer jobs from when we were sixteen. Saying people can’t work and do well in College is not true. People and go out during the week and do well in College, or they can work and do well in College, what they can’t do is work, go out drinking and do well in college. Two of my brothers got distinctions - the best possible result.

Then too there are people who are not ‘acedemic’ and should not go to College. We need to get away from the whole you won’t get a job or be happy if you don’t go to College. One of my younger brothers (who is smart) dropped out of College (it just didn’t appeal to him) and is working on the Railway and he loves it.
 
Brendan and Ter…very good points. May God bless you.

Deacon Tony SFO
 
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sparkle:
What a blessing to read your post! It has been like this in our lives too! God always has provided for us and I know always will.
God Bless~~
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Sparkle, thank you. I tend to be a little high spirited about this issue since I have given up the societal urges to “control” my reproduction and let God be in charge. I’m glad you didn’t think I was too overzealous. God bless you and your family 🙂
 
Materialism

Feiminism

Decline of family support (individualism?)

Overpopulation myth

Fear of the unknown – Lack of experience in being in a large family (now that we are into our second or third or more generation of family size limiting)

Classism – perception that it is “low class” to have a large family – only “uneducated hicks” or “religious nuts” have big families nowadays

These all reinforce each other. I think individualism and feminism are the most important causes though, in that order. I know many conservative Christians that are very family-oriented and definitely not feminist yet by golly if you have more than two or (gasp!) three kids you are placing unecessary strain on your husband and yourself–when will you have time to play bunco?

Now, I’ve never played bunco, but I have seen the almost religious fervor in the voices of the women who do. What is the attraction? I’ll never know, I guess. 🙂
 
I am surprised to see not mention of a factor which was crucial in my case, and that of several close friends, is a grave concern to my daughters and at least one poster has mentioned elsewhere: health. In my family the women going back at least 4 generations, and now my daughters is a congenital problem, a problem which resembles a type of arthritis, which is aggravated by pregnancy, and results in more disability following each pregnancy. My great grandmother died of its complications, my grandmother had 2 kids but ended life in a wheelchair, my mom had 6 (rhythm method) and was close to disabled the last 10 yrs of her life, my problems began at age 20 after first child, progressively worse each time, knees and hips nearly disintegrated at age 55, don’t know how bad it would have been earlier if I had been able to have more than 3 kids. My daughter started her family later and now has 4, but struggling with this thing. So far they have elected to stay with NFP but she has real fears of not being healthy enough to raise them. My other daughter started symptoms during her first pregnancy at age 30, and is having a hard time now. Have had long talks with her about Church teaching, trust in Providence etc., she does not share with me how she approaches this matter.

My mother in law lost her mother after the 10th child was born, and she virtually raised her younger siblings, beginning at age 14. She herself had an emergency hysterectomy and nearly died after her 4th was born. My mom’s 7th pregnancy ended in miscarriage, nearly died and spent months in bed when I was 10, I raised my youngest brother, had adult responsibilities after school from that time onward.

Even though prenatal and post natal care standards have increased greatly there are still a host of health problems, both for moms and babies–inherited disorders etc. that are very very scary to deal with. the pressure from doctors to contracept and abort is very intense, and without support from Church and family (not to mention husbands) it is hard to withstand.
 
thank you for sharing that Puzzleannie…

I have a chronic illness and am a little apprehensive about how the whole pregnancy, childbirth, child raising will affect my health…

so thank you for giving another perspective to the entire issue… not all people who choose to limit the size of their families or to not have children at all are doing so out of a “me me me” attitude.

I personally worry about passing my illness on to my children. So, am I being selfish for wanting children so much that I choose to ignore the potential health risk? or am I being selfish in not having children for the same reason?

It is a confusing issue and an entirely personal decision as I have said before.

So everyone should practice a little compassion and being non-judgemental. So what if your neighbors have a boat or two fancy cars? Maybe there are things going on that you have no idea about. Do my neighbors know about my illness? No. And I don’t like to think that they may be gossiping about me behind my back because they feel they know me and my life.

Finella
 
Hidden Life–

interesting what you said about class-ism. recently i went to the doctor and when she asked my method of “birth control,” i explained that my husband and i don’t see a need to artificially control our fertility and that we use NFP. she was absolutely appalled. she acted as if i must be the most backward, poor, uneducated woman out there. (i was dressed in a business suit after a meeting with my old supervisor; however, i had to disrobe for the appointment and i guess i looked like a dumb little girl sitting there in a hospital gown.) 🙂

i was SO insulted. i actually cried after the appointment, i was so shaken by her attitude. she called me “stupid and irresponsible” for being so “careless” with my reproductive system.

i do have a serious health reason to avoid, but my dh and i are very cautious with practicing NFP conservatively and trusting in God’s providence.

anyway, the point is that you are definitely on to something when you say that a general attitude of disgust exists towards large families–even though it is precisely what i hope to have one day!!! 🙂

Abby
 
I think there are a ton of factors that go into this, but I picked the fact that families are nuclear now and much less able to handle alot of kids than when extended families were the norm. Cultures that still have lots of children, like the Hispanic families mentioned earlier in this thread, also the Amish come to mind, are all very big on strong extended families. Unfortunately American culture isn’t anymore, mainly due to the way our economy developed. It’s alot easier to have 10 kids when you have 10 sisters in law to help out with them, and the kids have 50+ cousins nearby to play with when you need to get some of them out of the house to have a moment of peace and quiet. It’s not so easy when you’re all by yourself.

Also I think it’s important to keep in my mind that contraception did not start in the 1960s. The “contraceptive mentatlity” has been around for as long as humanity has been. People have been selfish and materialistic since the dawn of civilization. And people have tried for centuries to control the number of children they had. the methods they used in the past just weren’t as effective as our modern birth control. Just because people had large families in the past does not mean they necessarily all wanted large families and were more virtuous than people today. There was no such time as the “good old days.”

Also I see alot of working-mom scorn going on in this thread, as typically happens on CAF. Why no mention of working fathers? DId it occur to anyone that some women might be more disposed to having more children if Dad helped out more with the kids instead of just focusing on his career? For those of you who feel it’s a woman’s “god-given” duty to stay home, and working moms are somehow “sinning”, I refer you to the example of St Gianna Molla, one of our newest saints.
 
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Minerva:
Also I see alot of working-mom scorn going on in this thread, as typically happens on CAF. Why no mention of working fathers? DId it occur to anyone that some women might be more disposed to having more children if Dad helped out more with the kids instead of just focusing on his career? For those of you who feel it’s a woman’s “god-given” duty to stay home, and working moms are somehow “sinning”, I refer you to the example of St Gianna Molla, one of our newest saints.
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**“With simplicity and equilibrium she harmonized the demands of mother, wife, doctor and her passion for life.” **This is from the vatican website re: St. Gianna Molla.

It did not explain exactly how she did this though. Could you please refer me to some other info that goes into more detail as to how she balanced the demands of career and family?

I agree with you that more women may feel better able to handle a large family if the husband helps out. But I am one of those people who believes it is a mother’s God-given duty to stay at home to be able to fulfill her responsibilities towards her child(ren). It is also a man’s God-given duty to provide for his family. But providing does not just mean finacially. He needs to be the spiritual leader of the home, provide emotional security (safety etc) to his family, and be a good example and teacher to his children.

So if both parents are doing what God intended you get a well functioning family where both parents have roles.

That is why the proper choice of a spouse is so important.

Of course there are going to be exceptions/special circumstances. Are all mother’s who work out of the home sinning? Of course not. But the ones who know better may be.

Finella
 
St Gianna continued to work as a doctor, even after the birth of her 3 children (she died soon after the 4th was born). She did not stop her career when she became a mother. I believe her daughters are working moms too now. I can see how you could have a personal preference for women staying home with the kids. But I cannot fathom how you can call this preference “god-given.” If that’s true than Gianna violated her god-given role. But she’s a saint. How can that be? No offense, but it seems a bit presumptuous to label a personal preference as God’s preference, especially in light of evidence to the contrary (a working mom becoming a saint) and the fact that the woman staying home and spending all her time in childcare duties didn’t even become an option until the industrial revolution and then only for families of a certain class. For most of history mothers contributed to the family income as well as fathers and as well as children. Everyone worked. The idea of a woman stopping her income-producing work to raise children didn’t take hold til the 19th century. Read any sociology, history, or anthropology book. So I guess no one fulfilled the roles God intended for the genders til the 19th century . . . yeah right.
 
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Minerva:
St Gianna continued to work as a doctor, even after the birth of her 3 children (she died soon after the 4th was born). She did not stop her career when she became a mother. I believe her daughters are working moms too now. I can see how you could have a personal preference for women staying home with the kids. But I cannot fathom how you can call this preference “god-given.” If that’s true than Gianna violated her god-given role. But she’s a saint. How can that be? .
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Sorry, I am just not into debating. I stated my opinion, which very well could be wrong. I am a work in progress.

In my* very limited* understanding of sainthood, most saints were not perfect. Some even did some pretty bad things throughout their lives.

“Conscious immolation», was the phrase used by Pope Paul VI to define the act of Blessed Gianna, remembering her at the Sunday Angelus of September 23, 1973, as: “A young mother from the diocese of Milan, who, to give life to her daughter, sacrificed her own, with conscious immolation”. The Holy Father in these words clearly refers to Christ on Calvary and in the Eucharist."

Again, from the vatican website. In my understanding, she was cannonized for her sacrifice of her life for that of her child’s.

I will ask again…do you have any links to any info clearly stating that the Church supported her role of “working mom”?

I see from your profile that you are young and educated.

Me, I am a bit older and not as educated. But on my journey of discovery about the Catholic Faith, I tend to lean towards the teaching of the Church in regards to the definition of family, wife, husband, father, and mother. Society will never be my teacher.

Finella
 
obviously she wasn’t canonized because she was a working mom, I didn’t mean to imply that. But the vatican’s very own website on her says she balanced the demands of career and family. It doesn’t condemn her for continuing to work, nor does it laud her for giving up her career for her kids (because she didn’t do such a thing). She did not have, as far as anyone can tell, a “conversion experience” after which she repudiated her bad workign mom ways.

Society is not my teacher either. My teacher is Christ, and he said nothing about working mothers or about wifely submission. I’ve read the Catechism from cover to cover and there is nothing in it about male headship or working moms. I was recently married in the Church and there was nothing in our vows about wifely submission. If the true Catholic wife model is a stay at home mom who is submissive, then the Church is doing a pretty bad job of proclaiming that!
 
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MamaAtHome:
To answer the original question, it’s because somewhere along the way, our society has bought into the idea that in order to be happy, things must be easy.
~Lisa, wife to Tony, homeschooling mama to Nicholas, 9, Abigail, 7, Gabriel, 5, Isaac, 3, Mary, 2, Samuel, 11ms., and baby#7 due in November.
TKC!
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May God Bless you richly for sharing your wisdom.

I pray my parents may come to understand what you have shared. I wish they would just tell my brother and I that they loved us without having to ask. If only I could go back in time and convince my parents to not reject God and choose my brother and I over their high-paying carrers and personal happiness, we would both gladly trade in all our education, health care, car, for parents that told us “I love you”
 
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SocaliCatholic:
May God Bless you richly for sharing your wisdom.

I pray my parents may come to understand what you have shared. I wish they would just tell my brother and I that they loved us without having to ask. If only I could go back in time and convince my parents to not reject God and choose my brother and I over their high-paying carrers and personal happiness, we would both gladly trade in all our education, health care, car, for parents that told us “I love you”
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SoCaliCatholic,

your statement struck me as so sad. I know you didn’t come on here for sympathy, but you’ve got mine anyway.

Maybe your words will reach other “moms and dads” who still have time to reverse their decision to choose things over their own children…

I know you are young, but I think your experience will help you to be an excellent parent, if you aren’t one already. Please hold on to your Faith…I spent the majority of my life without any faith and am just catching up now.

God Bless you… I hope your parents tell you that they love you.

Finella
 
How is it fair to a child to share a room with 4+ people
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May I ask why it is not fair?
Even if a mom is a stay at home mom, why should she go all day with out a car?
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This is where sacrifice comes in. And really, it’s not that bad.

puzzleannie, I couldn’t agree more with your first post.
As parents, we need to stop trying to live up to societies view of ‘responsible parenthood’, and look only to Him.

SoCaliCatholic, you are in my thoughts and prayers today. I will be sure to share an extra “I love you” with each of my children.
 
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Finella:
thank you for sharing that Puzzleannie…
I have a chronic illness and am a little apprehensive about how the whole pregnancy, childbirth, child raising will affect my health…
Finella
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Hi Finella Dear~~

May I inquire–what is your “chronic illness”?
 
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Minerva:
I
Also I think it’s important to keep in my mind that contraception did not start in the 1960s. The “contraceptive mentatlity” has been around for as long as humanity has been. .
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This is an important point. I have worked with several manuscript collections containing letters and journal of upper middle class women from WW1 through the 20s & 30s, two particular ones come to mind because they and their husbands were prominent politically and socially. The letters back and forth discussed contraception, and mentioned books that were popular promoting it for reasons such as population control, health of the mother, meeting husband’s sexual needs, and promoting the ideal that the sexual compatibility and satisfaction of the couple was the most important part of marriage.

One women spent several years in Paris with her children in part to avoid having to live with her husband because she could not agree to his view of sex and marriage and what amounted to a demand that they contracept. The methods discussed were condoms, which had been around for years, the diaphragm which was fairly new, & coitus interruptus. An important part of this debate or dialogue was a view among women of this class that they should be active outside the home, not necessarily as wage earners, but in civic or volunteer activities, as befitted their position in society. Recall that the Lambeth Conference, the meeting of Anglican churchmen, in the 1930s was the first time any protestant sect had endorsed birth control, starting us down the slippery slope.
 
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