What if you already beleive Satan's lie?

[benedictus2]

The only lie involving satan is the claim that he exists.

Satan’s greatest triumph is that it has convinced a lot of people that it does not exist. To believe in it’s non-existence is convinient. It makes it easy to sin without the guilt.

But hey, it;'s a free world. You are always free to delude yourself. Much like the guy who jumped into the pool convinced it was full of water.

 

[benedictus2]

The purpose of this post is to get some opinions on the last day’s.There are alot of books out there on the last day’s And scripture plainly tells us that satan will delude the world at the time of the end.And the apostle Paul specifically says God himself will send a "deluding influence"on the world for the purpose of exposing those who have no love of the Truth:

Here’s a post that will certainly throw a spanner in the works.

A convert emailed his lovely conversion story and he says that after doing much study, he is convinced that the rise of protestantism is the beginning of the great delusion, the great lie.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

[SIGN]HI BEN!!![/SIGN] It’s about time you came around Now I can ask what do they mean(and I did ask) by the Catholic and PRODS will emerge together? Where is it in scripture?And do you believe that the two prophets will be Enoch and Elijah? God Bless Nancy I mean Witnesses that come back and are dead 3 days and God calls them to come up to him?

 

[ryanoneil]

No if you believe that then it could put you in danger of worshiping the false Christ when he shows up,for he is to show up first and after the fallingaway Christ comes back. Nancy

I have to strongly disagree with you. If anything, the millennialist are the ones who are in danger of not recognizing the Lord.

We understand that when Christ returns, the dead will rise and we will be judged immediately. We are not under the illusion that Christ is coming back to play politics for 1,000 years.
If it’s not the final judgment, it’s not Christ!

Beside, there is a good chance that my earthly life will end well before Christ returns.

 

[ryanoneil]

Your spiritual historicism makes sense to me except for the conundrum that I have about the two witnesses and Enoch & Elijah.

Pax,
SHW

If you don’t mind my two cents, (Rev 11:8) specifically points out the allegorical symbolic nature of the vision (it is not literal). I also take a multi-layer approach to the Apocalypse.

The two witnesses are symbolic of the Law and Prophets of the Old Testament being fulfilled by Christ (and his body the Church) in the New Testament. So, spiritual historicim’s Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture fits well with the idea of the New Testament Law and Prophets.

My reasoning behind this view: If you remember the parallel in Daniel 7, the little horn would make war on *the times and the law *for three and a half years. *The times and the law *that Daniel mentions are the parallel of the two witnesses.

Moses and Elijah were the two most important men in this regard. Moses gave Israel the Law, and Elijah was the epitome of God’s prophet. The powers of both witnesses recall the high points of the careers of Moses and Elijah.

They have the power to close up the sky so that no rain can fall during the time of their prophesying. They also have power to turn water into blood and to afflict the earth with any plague as often as they wish. (Rev 11:6)

It was also Moses and Elijah who came to bear witness to Christ in the Transfiguration

 

[SHW]

If you don’t mind my two cents, (Rev 11:8) specifically points out the allegorical symbolic nature of the vision (it is not literal). I also take a multi-layer approach to the Apocalypse.

The two witnesses are symbolic of the Law and Prophets of the Old Testament being fulfilled by Christ (and his body the Church) in the New Testament. So, spiritual historicim’s Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture fits well with the idea of the New Testament Law and Prophets.

My reasoning behind this view: If you remember the parallel in Daniel 7, the little horn would make war on *the times and the law *for three and a half years. *The times and the law *that Daniel mentions are the parallel of the two witnesses.

Moses and Elijah were the two most important men in this regard. Moses gave Israel the Law, and Elijah was the epitome of God’s prophet. The powers of both witnesses recall the high points of the careers of Moses and Elijah.

They have the power to close up the sky so that no rain can fall during the time of their prophesying. They also have power to turn water into blood and to afflict the earth with any plague as often as they wish. (Rev 11:6)

It was also Moses and Elijah who came to bear witness to Christ in the Transfiguration

Hi ryanoneil,
It is Enoch and Elijah who have not died; not Moses and Elijah.

Deuteronomy 34:7 “Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.”

And, if parts of the Apocalypse are literal, a person can only die once (unless they are like Lazarus). So, the two witnesses would have to be Enoch and Elijah instead of Moses and Elijah. Moses died.

Genesis 5:23-24 “So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.”

Enoch’s days on earth numbered 365 years. Then God took him and he walked with God. This could mean that he died but I do not think so. Scripture says “and he died” when speaking of all of the other men in the book of the genealogy of Adam. Enoch is the exception.

2 Kings 2:11 “Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

I do think that there is a spiritual historicism but I also think that the Antichrist will be a real person and that the witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah and that they will be literally slain. Revelation 11. Time will tell as they say. I hope that I am already faithfully departed before this all happens, if it is actually literal.

Pax,
SHW

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Here’s a post that will certainly throw a spanner in the works.

A convert emailed his lovely conversion story and he says that after doing much study, he is convinced that the rise of protestantism is the beginning of the great delusion, the great lie.

You know all this is a little scarey to me because we realy do not know the answer,all the answers sound right You didn’t answer my question form the therad below and how are the fires doing in your country? I pray they stop and the one’s or one who set them get’s the death penalty for all the people lost there. Nancy

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi ryanoneil,
It is Enoch and Elijah who have not died; not Moses and Elijah.

And, if parts of the Apocalypse are literal, a person can only die once (unless they are like Lazarus). So, the two witnesses would have to be Enoch and Elijah instead of Moses and Elijah. Moses died.

I do think that there is a spiritual historicism but I also think that the Antichrist will be a real person and that the witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah and that they will be literally slain. Revelation 11. Time will tell as they say. I hope that I am already faithfully departed before this all happens, if it is actually literal.

Pax,
SHW

Hi SHW,

I don’t believe (Rev 11) will play out literally (but I can’t see the future). It is highly symbolic in my opinion. And Enoch just doesn’t fit the description in my opinion. Either way, I think there is a good chance we won’t be around.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi SHW,

I don’t believe (Rev 11) will play out literally (but I can’t see the future). It is highly symbolic in my opinion. And Enoch just doesn’t fit the description in my opinion. Either way, I think there is a good chance we won’t be around.

Peace,

Ryan

Hi Ryan, why do you say none of you will be around or you wont be around? Do you think it will be so far away maybe thousands of years? I hope Christ will come soon and change everything but the Jews thought the same when he did come back and they stopped believing in him. because nothing changed for them. Who was ST. Francis Exavior I spelt it wrong but do you know who I mean? He was a saint who taught with love wasn’t he? nancy

 

[SHW]

Hi SHW,

I don’t believe (Rev 11) will play out literally (but I can’t see the future). It is highly symbolic in my opinion. And Enoch just doesn’t fit the description in my opinion. Either way, I think there is a good chance we won’t be around.

Peace,

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

I hope that you are correct. I wonder if there has been any official teaching on this? I also wonder why Enoch and Elijah did not die when everyone else had to die. We will find out some day but probably not while we are still on earth.

Pax,
SHW

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Ryan,

I hope that you are correct. I wonder if there has been any official teaching on this? I also wonder why Enoch and Elijah did not die when everyone else had to die. We will find out some day but probably not while we are still on earth.

Pax,
SHW

I think they are the two witnesses that will come back for it is appointed once for man to die and they have not perhaps they are to return and witness for the Lord. And then killed for their witness. God Bless P.S. Will you please answer my other question above this Thank You. Nancy

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan, why do you say none of you will be around or you wont be around? Do you think it will be so far away maybe thousands of years? I hope Christ will come soon and change everything but the Jews thought the same when he did come back and they stopped believing in him. because nothing changed for them. Who was ST. Francis Exavior I spelt it wrong but do you know who I mean? He was a saint who taught with love wasn’t he? nancy

I try to live my life like the Lord could return at any minute, but I don’t always succeed.
My hunch is that humanity will continue for a very long time, but I don’t really know.

I would love for the Lord to return, but I won’t be disappointed if He takes His time. I will meet him for my particular judgment when I die. I also look forward to spending eternity with as many of my descendants as possible (I only have one daughter now).

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us. (Rom 8:16-18)

I don’t know the story of that saint.

Peace

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan,

I hope that you are correct. I wonder if there has been any official teaching on this? I also wonder why Enoch and Elijah did not die when everyone else had to die. We will find out some day but probably not while we are still on earth.

Pax,
SHW

I don’t know about official teaching, and can’t really say about Enoch and Elijah. I really can’t say anything about a future fulfillment of these verses either.

If we look to the 1st century as a prefigurment, the two witnesses symbolically represent the Jewish martyrs who were slaughtered during the Temples destruction.

**Armed forces shall move at his command and defile the sanctuary stronghold, abolishing the daily sacrifice and setting up the horrible abomination. (Dan 11:31)

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the horrible abomination is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Dan 12:11)

"When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains (Mat 24:15-16)**

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mat 24:34)

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for a terrible calamity will come upon the earth and a wrathful judgment upon this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and I was told, "Come and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who are worshiping in it. But exclude the outer court of the temple; do not measure it, for it has been handed over to the Gentiles, who will trample the holy city for forty-two months. (Rev 11:1-2)

According to the historian Josephus, the daily sacrifice dedicated to Nero in the Temple in Jerusalem was halted in July of 66 A.D. This Jewish provocation led to the declaration of war by Rome in Februray of 67 A.D. The war ended precisely forty-two months later when the Temple was burned by Titus’s troops in August of 70 A.D.

Daniel predicted these things more than six centuries earlier, Jesus predicted them four decades earlier, and St. John expands on their prophecies. So like I said, I can’t really speak to the future. Whatever happens though, we will have a fuller understanding of the events by considering the historical context.

 

[SHW]

I don’t know about official teaching, and can’t really say about Enoch and Elijah. I really can’t say anything about a future fulfillment of these verses either.

If we look to the 1st century as a prefigurment, the two witnesses symbolically represent the Jewish martyrs who were slaughtered during the Temples destruction.

**Armed forces shall move at his command and defile the sanctuary stronghold, abolishing the daily sacrifice and setting up the horrible abomination. (Dan 11:31)

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the horrible abomination is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Dan 12:11)

"When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains (Mat 24:15-16)**

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mat 24:34)

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for a terrible calamity will come upon the earth and a wrathful judgment upon this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and I was told, "Come and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who are worshiping in it. But exclude the outer court of the temple; do not measure it, for it has been handed over to the Gentiles, who will trample the holy city for forty-two months. (Rev 11:1-2)

According to the historian Josephus, the daily sacrifice dedicated to Nero in the Temple in Jerusalem was halted in July of 66 A.D. This Jewish provocation led to the declaration of war by Rome in Februray of 67 A.D. The war ended precisely forty-two months later when the Temple was burned by Titus’s troops in August of 70 A.D.

Daniel predicted these things more than six centuries earlier, Jesus predicted them four decades earlier, and St. John expands on their prophecies. So like I said, I can’t really speak to the future. Whatever happens though, we will have a fuller understanding of the events by considering the historical context.

I know that all of this happened since I read Josephus’ history, too. I think that elements of Salvation history are prefigured over and over until their ultimate fulfillment.

Noah’s covenant was the first covenant. There were many covenants since his and the OT Covenant with the Law of Moses was the primary one, of course. These all prefigured Jesus’ New Covenant and His covenant is the ultimate fulfillment of all of these previous covenants.

Just as there have been many “spirits” of Antichrist who did the work of Satan and also several men (rulers) who were precursor Antichrists in Salvation History, I do believe that there will be a fulfillment in one last Antichrist who will be man and he will arrive on the scene shortly before Jesus’ return.

Another example is the Ark of the Covenant of the Old Testament. It prefigures Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant which I explain in this Scripture Study:

members.cox.net/studyhisword/ArkNewCovenant.pdf

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

I think they are the two witnesses that will come back for it is appointed once for man to die and they have not perhaps they are to return and witness for the Lord. And then killed for their witness. God Bless P.S. Will you please answer my other question above this Thank You. Nancy

Hi Nancy,
**
St. Francis Xavier**
He was a great missionary who loved God.

Please click on the link below to read about him:

newadvent.org/cathen/06233b.htmnewadvent.org/cathen/06233b.htm

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

I know that all of this happened since I read Josephus’ history, too. I think that elements of Salvation history are prefigured over and over until their ultimate fulfillment.

I agree.

Noah’s covenant was the first covenant. There were many covenants since his and the OT Covenant with the Law of Moses was the primary one, of course. These all prefigured Jesus’ New Covenant and His covenant is the ultimate fulfillment of all of these previous covenants.

I think that is the strongest reason Moses symbolizes one of the witnesses. The Old “dying”, so to speak, so the New can “rise”. And the similairity between (Rev 11:6b) and Exodus 7:17-20

Just as there have been many “spirits” of Antichrist who did the work of Satan and also several men (rulers) who were precursor Antichrists in Salvation History, I do believe that there will be a fulfillment in one last Antichrist who will be man and he will arrive on the scene shortly before Jesus’ return.

I agree.

Another example is the Ark of the Covenant of the Old Testament. It prefigures Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant which I explain in this Scripture Study:

members.cox.net/studyhisword/ArkNewCovenant.pdf

Pax,
SHW

I agree. Nice article. It is a good example of a first century fulfillment of OT types.

-What about the first century fulfillment of the two witnesses?
-Do you think they are figurative or literal?
-If they are literal people in this scenario who are they?
(Enoch and Elijah don’t work, because the “dying once” logic can’t be used for the future fulfillment)

Do you see why literal Enoch and Elijah confuses me when looking toward the future?

Peace

 

[SHW]

I agree.

I think that is the strongest reason Moses symbolizes one of the witnesses. The Old “dying”, so to speak, so the New can “rise”. And the similairity between (Rev 11:6b) and Exodus 7:17-20

Hi Ryan,

I think the reason that Moses and Elijah were at the Transfiguration is because Moses represents the Law, and Elijah represents the Prophets, and Jesus is the fulfillment of both.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.”

Luke 24:44 “Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

I agree. Nice article. It is a good example of a first century fulfillment of OT types.

Thank you. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

-What about the first century fulfillment of the two witnesses?
-Do you think they are figurative or literal?
-If they are literal people in this scenario who are they?
(Enoch and Elijah don’t work, because the “dying once” logic can’t be used for the future fulfillment)
Do you see why literal Enoch and Elijah confuses me when looking toward the future? Peace

I know that they were figurative in the first century fulfillment but I do not know if there were two literal witnesses also. It could not have been Enoch and Elijah, because of the reason you cite. I don’t know if it is possible to find out but we can try.

Was Enoch a prophet also, besides Elijah?

If so, this would make sense for their end time appearances. Perhaps the Jews will recognize that they are prophets from God and then they will repent and believe in Jesus Christ?

Pax,
SHW

 

[spauline]

personally, as i continue to stress,

neither the figurative preterist meaning, nor ANY literal meanings bear any real significance to bigger picture of salvation history.

The MOST meaningful and sensible solution of the two witnesses is the FIGURATIVE meaning that has a dual spiritual fulfillment in the INTERMEDIATE history of both covenants.

That is the most plain and meaningful.

For in the INTERMEDIATE exile, the law and the prophets that were scoffed at by the Jews were vindicated and restored to love.

Just as, not in pagan Rome’s time, but in the INTERMEDIATE Church history, which is NOW, the SCRIPTURE and TRADITION of CATHOLICISM that is scoffed at shall be vindicated and restored epochally in the coming chastisement and age of peace.

So what if people attempt to literally harm Enoch and Elijah or Peter and Paul, and they are harmed in the same manner.

Duh, that is stupid and irrelevant.

If you understand ANYTHING about Catholicism, you know THIS meaning is FAR more important:

If you attempt to HARM any TEACHING from Catholic Scripture or Tradition, you harm yourself by the very same SPIRITUAL degree.

Come on folks, the spiritual matters much more than the physical.

Same thing with fall of Jerusalem. So what if it took LITERALLY five months for Jerusalem to fall. That data, intrinsically, is worthless toward the greater meaning of salvation history.

But the Protestant Rebellion is MAJOR, APOCALYPTIC history, for it involves intrinsic Catholic doctrine, the question of the unity of Christ’s disciples, and that the heretics lost FIVE sources of supernatural life, the sacraments.

That is FAR more important in salvation history and Church history, than minor temporal bs stats of the fall of Jerusalem.

You are not wise, Ryan, and that is why I get royally ticked at you!

 

[spauline]

similarly does the preterist idiot reduce the beast, which is traditionally epochal imagery, to a mere handful of Roman emperors.

The preterist, like the stupid Hahn, rejoices that five roman emperors fell before St. John wrote, that one reigned currently, and that two more, one of which is a rumor of a returned Nero, would follow in the FIRST century.

now think about this, you freaking morons: What if there had been 13 Roman emperors before St. John’s writing and 22 more after him? What the hell difference does it make? For were not nearly all the Roman Emperors of the same spiritual nature, which is that they think they are God and persecute the Church?

how does such SPECIFIC information help the Church discern the meaning of Salvation history? Obviously, the number of emperors that reign in the first great phase of Church history, which is the age of the martyrs, is not really relevant to the MEANING of the age. The general jist of the age is that paganism, having already attained its glorious materialistic empire, is resisting the incoming of the Spirit, the People of God, and so oppresses them, in much a similar spiritual sense in which Egypt oppressed the People of Old because they perceived a threat to their dominion. In much a similar sense in which the flesh of the saint rebels against the incoming spirit, so that the first greater stage of the saint must be a painful dark night of the senses, physical penance to root out the primary sinful tendencies: The Purgative Way.

Should not the delineation of the beast, rather than revealing an arbitrary number of emperors, veil the greater stages of sin in salvation history, and the theology, psychology, and spiriutal meaning behind it?

Honestly, Catholic preterists are my worst pet peeve. I just want to beat the **** out of them, because they are laxidaisical and clueless!

 

[spauline]

i am sorry, guys for losing my temper, i just get frustrated, please forgive me, thanx,
scott