What if you cannot reconcile your conscience with church teaching?

[TMC]

From the Catechism on erroneous judgement (which you conveniently omitted from your post):

Easy, there, I “omitted” 1791 and 1792 because you had quoted them in the post to which I was responding. I certainly don’t think I can score any points here by trickery.

So if 1790 and 1800 don’t mean what I think they do, what do they mean? If conscience must be exactly in conformance with Church teaching, what is the purpose of conscience? Why even bring it up? Why does the Pope say that everyone must follow their conscience? Shouldn’t the doctrine merely be “the Church is always right and if you don’t believe Her you are damned”, or is that your reading of the Church’s teachings?

 

[estesbob]

Easy, there, I “omitted” 1791 and 1792 because you had quoted them in the post to which I was responding. I certainly don’t think I can score any points here by trickery.

So if 1790 and 1800 don’t mean what I think they do, what do they mean? If conscience must be exactly in conformance with Church teaching, what is the purpose of conscience? Why even bring it up? Why does the Pope say that everyone must follow their conscience? Shouldn’t the doctrine merely be “the Church is always right and if you don’t believe Her you are damned”, or is that your reading of the Church’s teachings?

Because not every situation we face in life is covered by Church teaching and/or the catechism. That is when a well formed conscience steps in and tells us the correct path to take

 

[Orionthehunter]

Easy, there, I “omitted” 1791 and 1792 because you had quoted them in the post to which I was responding. I certainly don’t think I can score any points here by trickery.

So if 1790 and 1800 don’t mean what I think they do, what do they mean? If conscience must be exactly in conformance with Church teaching, what is the purpose of conscience? Why even bring it up? Why does the Pope say that everyone must follow their conscience? Shouldn’t the doctrine merely be “the Church is always right and if you don’t believe Her you are damned”, or is that your reading of the Church’s teachings?

I apologize for the inferred aspersion. I never should have said it.

TMC: You are reading one section of the Catechism w/o the full context of the section, the Catechism on the authority and charism of the Church on Truth and Morals, and the full scope of Church teaching. It has the appearance of selective quoting of Scripture.

 

[TMC]

The purpose of the conscience is resolve those issues that are not specifically addressed in church teaching.

That would wrap up the topic, if true. But that is not what the catechism says. The catechism says that when consulting your conscience some rules will always apply:

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;

• the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56

• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: "Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ."57 Therefore "it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble."58

If your position is correct, why doesn’t 1789 say “first apply the catechism, if that isn’t applicable then …” It would have been easy to do that, but that is not what the catechism says.

 

[estesbob]

That would wrap up the topic, if true. But that is not what the catechism says. The catechism says that when consulting your conscience some rules will always apply:

If your position is correct, why doesn’t 1789 say “first apply the catechism, if that isn’t applicable then …” It would have been easy to do that, but that is not what the catechism says.

.Not all situations are covered by it and not all situation one runs into can be distilled down to good versus evil or following the Golden rule . And that is where the well formed conscience comes in.

 

[TMC]

I apologize for the inferred aspersion. I never should have said it.

TMC: You are reading one section of the Catechism w/o the full context of the section, the Catechism on the authority and charism of the Church on Truth and Morals, and the full scope of Church teaching. It has the appearance of selective quoting of Scripture.

I understand what you mean. I agree that it can appear that way. We are limited in space here and I am limited in time. I don’t know what to tell you except that I have undertaken what I feel is a pretty serious inquiry into these matters and have concluded that I cannot reconcile my conscience with some of the Church’s teachings. I think we may just disagree on this point. I appreciate what I believe is a real concern and effort on the part of many here to help guide folks like me back into the fold. But if that is going to happen its going to take something other than arguments here. I continue to pray and study, and I believe I have an open mind, but my heart and conscience are not budging.

 

[jmcrae]

I understand what you mean. I agree that it can appear that way. We are limited in space here and I am limited in time. I don’t know what to tell you except that I have undertaken what I feel is a pretty serious inquiry into these matters and have concluded that I cannot reconcile my conscience with some of the Church’s teachings. I think we may just disagree on this point. I appreciate what I believe is a real concern and effort on the part of many here to help guide folks like me back into the fold. But if that is going to happen its going to take something other than arguments here. I continue to pray and study, and I believe I have an open mind, but my heart and conscience are not budging.

Well, again, look for the third way. If it’s something the Church teaches that seems “obviously” wrong, then it must have seemed so to someone else, as well - most likely, there is an answer out there that you just haven’t found, yet. (Perhaps you are misunderstanding something, or perhaps there is a side of the question that you have not yet considered - a solution that satisfies both your conscience and the teaching of the Church.)

 

[Genesis315]

Hi everyone…

It’s a simple question really…what if:

You cannot reconcile your conscience with church teaching?​

and you:

know you are morally obliged to follow you conscience (at all times?)

have fully, or to the best of your ability, informed your conscience

have read book after book and tried discussing this issue around other topics

have gone away from the forums for months to think and still feel the same way, but know that the church does not teach how you feel you should act on an issue​

I’ve left the issue I’m thinking of as a blank as in a way it’s kinda not relevent to the question… but I don’t mind if anyone needs to know to answer me better or if anyone PM’s me… and also I guess a lot of people struggle to unify their own thoughts with the church’s… what do you do if you cannot do this? What happens if you never manage it and should follow your conscience?

Thanks a lot,

S

Conscience is not involved with judging the truth of some matter. We receive those truths in faith. Rather, after receiving those truths, conscience is involved with deciding how to act in a particular situation given the truth you have received by faith.

Here is a good read on the topic by Cardinal Newman (this letter is cited by the Catechism on this topic):

newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section5.html

 

[Orionthehunter]

I understand what you mean. I agree that it can appear that way. We are limited in space here and I am limited in time. I don’t know what to tell you except that I have undertaken what I feel is a pretty serious inquiry into these matters and have concluded that I cannot reconcile my conscience with some of the Church’s teachings. I think we may just disagree on this point. I appreciate what I believe is a real concern and effort on the part of many here to help guide folks like me back into the fold. But if that is going to happen its going to take something other than arguments here. I continue to pray and study, and I believe I have an open mind, but my heart and conscience are not budging.

Just so long as you realize that your intransigence may be imputed to you fully. It sounds as though you are holding tight to these views with knowledge and consent. I don’t really want to know but I ask the rhetorical question: What is so valuable for which you would take such a risk?

John 5: 43-47 I came in the name of my Father, but you do not accept me; yet if another comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another and do not seek the praise that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

James 4: 1-7: Where do the wars and where do the conflicts among you come from? Is it not from your passions that make war within your members? You covet but do not possess. You kill and envy but you cannot obtain; you fight and wage war. You do not possess because you do not ask. You ask but do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. Adulterers! Do you not know that to be a lover of the world means enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wants to be a lover of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose that the scripture speaks without meaning when it says, “The spirit that he has made to dwell in us tends toward jealousy”? But he bestows a greater grace; therefore, it says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” So submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Romans 16:17-20 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent. For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I want you to be wise as to what is good, and simple as to what is evil; then the God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

 

[Abira]

Could you elaborate? Which teachings are your conscience having discord with? What’s the teaching saying? What’s your conscience saying and why is your conscience saying that?​

hi crenfro. its simple really… the issues im struggling with are not relevent to the question. I’m not interested in discussing the topic as I’ve done that in a different forum based on scripture etc… im interested in how different people deal with their conscience when it isnt in allignment with the church.

Again, could you elaborate? Exactly how fully did you inform your conscience? What specific things did you do?

I’ve read hundreds of hours worth of reading in books, sermons, essays etc and still haven’t reached a conclusion.

how many books after books did you read? which titles? could you clarify what you mean by “discussing this issue around other topics?” sounds vague to me…but then that’s me…

I left it vague as I don’t want it to turn into a thread trying to persuade me or anyone else about their various issues, I know all of the biblical arguaments and every other kind of arguament… but that’s not the point. The point is that I’m not convinced and so the real question is: now what??

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. Could you clarify it? Are you saying your conscience and “church teaching” - “church teaching” here, to me, sounds vague- is “blank,” that is, neither, has any meaning to you? Are you saying that conscience and church teaching aren’t relevant? I don’t understand your statement. I’m sorry. I’m trying.

when i say ‘church teaching’; I mean the traditional teaching of the church on an issue historically and also still kept to today. In a Roman Catholic sense you can interpret me to mean ‘the catechism says it’s wrong’ lol. I don’t consider my choices to be un-christian as I am a christian… but they are none the less against what the church teaches I should be doing and feeling.

I have no idea what’s going to happen. That’s God’s territory. Have you discussed your struggle with God? Do you have a spiritual director?

I don’t have a spiritual director. That may possibly be an american thing. This issue keeps me from going to church and taking communion and has kind of forced a wedge between myself and my faith as I feel that I am in a kind of schism or I can’t reconcile this issue and my faith.

IM me cos I don’t mean to be mysterious I just don’t want the thread to turn into something dealing with peoples doubts… but about what to do when we have them.

Take care,

S

 

[Abira]

Conscience is not involved with judging the truth of some matter. We receive those truths in faith. Rather, after receiving those truths, conscience is involved with deciding how to act in a particular situation given the truth you have received by faith.

Here is a good read on the topic by Cardinal Newman (this letter is cited by the Catechism on this topic):

newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section5.html

thanks for the link.

I’m not sure that I agree that I should accept everything as truth first and use conscience to act upon it. I look at everything first and choose to believe it. and most of the time i do… but then this may be where my issue lies lol.

take care, S

 

[Abira]

I’ve read everybody’s posts kinda quietly and I agree that conscience and teaching have to eventually be in agreement. I also think that where there is contradiction there has to be some non-truth somewhere as nothing can contradict the truth.

that’s all logical however and I’m nervous thta my anability to reconcile my faith and conscience and how i am to live my life will force me to choose between living out my faith fully and living my life fully…as the two conttradict one another in some sense, although there are arguments to the contrary.

based solely on the bible there are persuasive arguments that I initially found comforting… I’m not a catholic so I’ve never been brought up with church teaching and tradition being of equal importance…

now I am beginning to place value on tradition and church teaching it is more difficult and I recognise that something has to give but that it may take me some time.

thanks to all posters

S

 

[TMC]

Conscience is not involved with judging the truth of some matter. We receive those truths in faith. Rather, after receiving those truths, conscience is involved with deciding how to act in a particular situation given the truth you have received by faith.

Here is a good read on the topic by Cardinal Newman (this letter is cited by the Catechism on this topic):

newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section5.html

I have read Newman on this subject. He distinguishes acts from knowledge and beliefs, but I don’t agree that he requires assent to the truth as taught by the Church.

For example, he says that if the Pope ordered priests to hold lotteries for religous items, and the Priests really believed that lotteries were immoral, they would be not only within their rights to refuse, but would be sinning if they did not. This presupposes that they disagree with the teaching of the Church on the morality of lotteries. Conscience to Newman is only activated when action or inaction is called for, but it is not independent of truth as taught by the Church.

 

[TMC]

Just so long as you realize that your intransigence may be imputed to you fully. It sounds as though you are holding tight to these views with knowledge and consent. I don’t really want to know but I ask the rhetorical question: What is so valuable for which you would take such a risk?

What is so valuable? Truth. And Salvation. If I am right in my dissent and conform my attitude to a truth I do not believe, how can I be saved? If salvation depends on holding the same doctrinal positions as the Church, I cannot, I can only pretend. If salvation depends on persevering in the truth as I see it, I may yet be saved. But if I conform to a truth I do not believe I have neither. So I really don’t think there is another choice for me.

 

[jmcrae]

What is so valuable? Truth. And Salvation. If I am right in my dissent and conform my attitude to a truth I do not believe, how can I be saved? If salvation depends on holding the same doctrinal positions as the Church, I cannot, I can only pretend. If salvation depends on persevering in the truth as I see it, I may yet be saved. But if I conform to a truth I do not believe I have neither. So I really don’t think there is another choice for me.

Keep investigating. Be humble enough to realize that you are not the first person ever to have questioned this teaching. There are answers out there - you just have to find them.

 

[Orionthehunter]

What is so valuable? Truth. And Salvation. If I am right in my dissent and conform my attitude to a truth I do not believe, how can I be saved? If salvation depends on holding the same doctrinal positions as the Church, I cannot, I can only pretend. If salvation depends on persevering in the truth as I see it, I may yet be saved. But if I conform to a truth I do not believe I have neither. So I really don’t think there is another choice for me.

Keep investigating. Be humble enough to realize that you are not the first person ever to have questioned this teaching. There are answers out there - you just have to find them.

jmcrae gives good advice. Truth and Salvation doesn’t come from you. It comes from Christ. He is the source, not you.

John 14: 5-17 Thomas said to him, “Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

 

[Peregrino]

The purpose of the conscience is resolve those issues that are not specifically addressed in church teaching. Sadly many people use the alleged primacy of conscience to pretty much ignore the teaching of the Church they are uncomfortable with.

Point taken and it is a good one. Your point functions from the assumption that the church is always right. I cannot concede this. However, it is not justified to knee-jerk dismiss church teaching simply because it comes from the church. I use church teaching as a sounding board for my own conscience.

Surprisingly, I find that I agree with the church more than I disagree. I can’t however, just assent and move on when my conscience is in conflict. I personally believe that we are responsible for our actions and the things we assent to. Though the church holds that we can never sin by our obedience, I feel differently and don’t believe that this is a good excuse.

Iin fact if you go to supposedly Catholic homosexual sites you will see that this is given as the reason why homosexual behavior is fully compatible with being a faithful Catholic…

I’m not going to verify you on this one…

 

[catharina]

I don’t have a spiritual director. That may possibly be an american thing. This issue keeps me from going to church and taking communion and has kind of forced a wedge between myself and my faith as I feel that I am in a kind of schism or I can’t reconcile this issue and my faith.

IM me cos I don’t mean to be mysterious I just don’t want the thread to turn into something dealing with peoples doubts… but about what to do when we have them.

Take care,

S

If you’re referring to yourself, then you must know that doubt is merely doubt. It’s not disbelief or rejecyion of truth, it’s simply doubt and unless you base your faith, beliefs and actions “in doubt” it only signifies as a temptation if I understand correctly.

 

[Greg27]

I guess there are two main possibilities here:

1. You assent to the church’s teaching in faith, and obey it, even if your conscience may have doubts
2. You follow your conscience and disobey or dissent from the magesterial teaching in question.

Generally Catholics seem to go for one of these two positions, but in the end as with any difficult in matter in life, one just has to reflect on what one has learned and knows and using experience and judgement, reach a rational conclusion about which path is the best to follow. In my view, internal conscience has absolute authority over any external authority, as in my view our freedom represents among the most noble of our qualities as human beings, and to sacrifice that even for the sake of faith, is a kind of death.

 

[Hibblyn]

In the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
The Father is a symbol of ultimate truth/wisdom. He does not try to keep the younger son from his desire for independence,nor does he try to correct the jealous older son who remains faithful in his duty.
What was the younger son thinking, who did he think he was becoming independent of… I believe he sought independence from the father, his home and his rules. The older son found safety in the home, rules, etc. but still kept his independence from his father. The older son was seeking reward for his pride through his obedience. Both missed the point.
The younger learned that independent life leaves an internal bankruptcy. The older brother learned that duty without love is arrogant pride looking for approval. Both of these were independent thinkers. Both were wrong.
The father was the life source for both sons.
We were told by Jesus (before he left this world) I need to leave so that the “Comforter” (Holy Spirit) will come. He will teach you all things that you will need to know.
The Holy Spirit offers the following gifts to us:
wisdom,understanding,counsel,fortitude,knowledge,piety,fear of the Lord.
We need to pray for grace to receive these gifts.

Hibblyn