What is a 'devotion to Mary'?

[marylauravicuna]

update on that. I opened another discussion with showing the section of Humae Vitae II #14, I believe, which condemns sterilization.

She defended her position by explaining this is a tradition of man and not strickly intended for all situations. That someone can be more charitable towards the poor if they do not have 15 plus children. And women will remain more attractive to their husbands without having so many pregnancies on their bodies, therefore keeping their husbands from looking at other women.

I also asked her if she knows a priest who would defend her position. She named an EX priest who left his vocation to run for a political position! Go figure…

I know someone who attends daily mass and believes the same thing (and supports gay marriage and thinks abortion should be legal). She doesn’t do any sort of devotion to Jesus through Mary other than a daily rosary.

 

[rcwitness]

I know someone who attends daily mass and believes the same thing (and supports gay marriage and thinks abortion should be legal). She doesn’t do any sort of devotion to Jesus through Mary other than a daily rosary.

My mother in law attends Mass too. Don’t you think they both have an unhealthy devotion to Our Eucharist in so much as they justified a sinfull act while they petition the Lord for more grace?

Again, my point is not to say there can’t be a good devotion to Jesus within a relationship with Mary. The point is, there can be, and is unhealthy and false devotions to Mary. There are also false devotions to Jesus. Those who claim to be all about HIm, and do many things in HIs name, and pray all the time, but do not follow the Holy Spirit. So, I think it is even easier to practice traditions and religious devotions to Mary who we actually have nothing to confirm her response and direction other than the Lord whom she actually did tell us to follow.

I think once we start acknowledging this fact, and do something about it, then we will be honoring her in righteousness. Then our brothers and sisters in the faith who see devotions to her as a stumbling block will not have these reasons to be turned off by devotions to her, because they are actually devotions to righteousness.

 

[marylauravicuna]

My mother in law attends Mass too. Don’t you think they both have an unhealthy devotion to Our Eucharist in so much as they justified a sinfull act while they petition the Lord for more grace?

Again, my point is not to say there can’t be a good devotion to Jesus within a relationship with Mary. The point is, there can be, and is unhealthy and false devotions to Mary. There are also false devotions to Jesus. Those who claim to be all about HIm, and do many things in HIs name, and pray all the time, but do not follow the Holy Spirit. So, I think it is even easier to practice traditions and religious devotions to Mary who we actually have nothing to confirm her response and direction other than the Lord whom she actually did tell us to follow.

I think once we start acknowledging this fact, and do something about it, then we will be honoring her in righteousness. Then our brothers and sisters in the faith who see devotions to her as a stumbling block will not have these reasons to be turned off by devotions to her, because they are actually devotions to righteousness.

What I honestly think: “How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.” Luke 6:42 Had a priest tell me the other day, when questioned about behavior that wasn’t particularly holy, that priests aren’t always holy. The only people who the Church has deemed “righteous” are the saints, Jesus, and Mary.

 

[marylauravicuna]

However, what St. Louis de Montfort thinks:

Presumptuous devotees

1. Presumptuous devotees are sinners who give full rein to their passions or their love of the world, and who, under the fair name of Christian and servant of our Lady, conceal pride, avarice, lust, drunkenness, anger, swearing, slandering, injustice and other vices. They sleep peacefully in their wicked habits, without making any great effort to correct them, believing that their devotion to our Lady gives them this sort of liberty. They convince themselves that God will forgive them, that they will not die without confession, that they will not be lost for all eternity. They take all this for granted because they say the Rosary, fast on Saturdays, are enrolled in the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary or the Scapular, or a sodality of our Lady, wear the medal or the little chain of our Lady.

When you tell them that such a devotion is only an illusion of the devil and a dangerous presumption which may well ruin them, they refuse to believe you. God is good and merciful, they reply, and he has not made us to damn us. No man is without sin. We will not die without confession, and a good act of contrition at death is all that is needed. Moreover, they say they have devotion to our Lady; that they wear the scapular; that they recite faithfully and humbly every day the seven Our Fathers and seven Hail Marys in her honour; that sometimes they even say the Rosary and the Office of our Lady, as well as fasting and performing other good works.

Blinding themselves still more, they quote stories they have heard or read - whether true or false does not bother them - which relate how people who had died in mortal sin were brought back to life again to go to confession, or how their soul was miraculously retained in their bodies until confession, because in their lifetime they said a few prayers or performed a few pious acts, in honour of our Lady. Others are supposed to have obtained from God at the moment of death, through the merciful intercession of the Blessed Virgin, sorrow and pardon for their sins, and so were saved. Accordingly, these people expect the same thing to happen to them.

1. Nothing in our Christian religion is so deserving of condemnation as this diabolical presumption. How can we truthfully claim to love and honour the Blessed Virgin when by our sins we pitilessly wound, pierce, crucify and outrage her Son? If Mary made it a rule to save by her mercy this sort of person, she would be condoning wickedness and helping to outrage and crucify her Son. Who would even dare to think of such a thing?

1. I declare that such an abuse of devotion to her is a horrible sacrilege and, next to an unworthy Communion, is the greatest and the least pardonable sin, because devotion to our Lady is the holiest and best after devotion to the Blessed Sacrament.

I admit that to be truly devoted to our Lady, it is not absolutely necessary to be so holy as to avoid all sin, although this is desirable. But at least it is necessary (note what I am going to say), (1) to be genuinely determined to avoid at least all mortal sin, which outrages the Mother as well as the Son; (2) to practise self-restraint in order to avoid sin; (3) to join her confraternities, say the Rosary and other prayers, fast on Saturdays, and so on.

1. Such means are surprisingly effective in converting even the hardened sinner. Should you be such a sinner, with one foot in the abyss, I advise you to do as I have said. But there is an essential condition. You must perform these good works solely to obtain from God, through the intercession of our Lady, the grace to regret your sins, obtain pardon for them and overcome your evil habits, and not to live complacently in the state of sin, disregarding the warning voice of conscience, the example of our Lord and the saints, and the teaching of the holy gospel.

The worst devotion to Mary to me is the one mixed with voodoo worship.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

How would you define a good devotion to Mary? How would you define a false devotion to Mary?

The good devotions are the ones approved by the Church and the bad ones unapproved.

IMO: Their has always and to this day been a Marian influence in the Church. St. Peter was the visible head of the Church while St. John was the Marian influence.

True devotion to St. Mary is rare.
When I hear this reading I think of the Laodicean Church asking about the Philadelphian Marian Church

John 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 

[rcwitness]

What I honestly think: “How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.” Luke 6:42 Had a priest tell me the other day, when questioned about behavior that wasn’t particularly holy, that priests aren’t always holy. The only people who the Church has deemed “righteous” are the saints, Jesus, and Mary.

If I have said something wrong, show me. So far, you haven’t, so why do you claim I have a beam in my eye?

I am using an example of a devotion which is false. The notion that a devotion to Mary is better falls apart once we realize that devotion needs to be supported by a devotion to Church Teaching. If that’s what someone wishes to define their devotion to Mary as, then fine. But I see the focus, conviction, and confirmation, not coming from Mary, so why is one focussed on her better?

Do you agree my MIL has a splinter in her eye? What should I do? I cant draw on her devotion to Mary to convict her because her statue wont confirm me

 

[JRKH]

The good devotions are the ones approved by the Church and the bad ones unapproved.

True -
However a given set of practices and beliefs (devotion) can be approved by the Church and a person can misuse, or misunderstand them.
The individual can have a “bad devotion” - or perhaps more correctly, an erroneous or defective or false devotion.

Peace
James

 

[marylauravicuna]

so why do you claim I have a beam in my eye?

I cant draw on her devotion to Mary to convict her:

“Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye”

 

[marylauravicuna]

If I have said something wrong, show me.
…

The notion that a devotion to Mary is better falls apart.

why do you claim I have a beam in my eye?
…
Do you agree my MIL has a splinter in her eye? What should ***I do? I ***cant draw on her devotion to Mary to convict her

 

[rcwitness]

marylauravicuna:
Thats what I said… though chopping it up isnt very helpfull.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

RC, I see only that you have apparently convinced yourself that because your mother supports the idea of having a vasectomy, it MUST be because she has a ‘false devotion to Mary’.

I think that is a logical fallacy on your part. You’re basically claiming this:

“A false devotion to Mary would lead a person to reject Catholic teaching.”
"My MIL rejects certain Catholic teachings.:
THEREFORE my MIL MUST HAVE A FALSE DEVOTION TO MARY.

I think the fallacy, in English, is called something like “after this, therefore because of this”. .

 

[fred_conty]

It sounds like if a person who has a devotion to St. Joe, St. Michael, St. Teresa, St. Paul, … then it is the fault of the devotion, or a faulty devotion, or a bad devotion, and not simply that a person sinned, or that they might be blinded in conscience to a sin for the time being.

So are we to look for the bad devotion to any saint when they sin? That is the first thing to be examined and if they are found to have a particular devotion, then that is the culprit…the devotion. So if any devotion has a person who is sinning, then they should junk the devotion.

Some will say, well no, it is just that this devotion should have corrected their wrong ideas and if this devotion hasn’t then they have a false devotion to this saint.

It seems to me that what has happened is that they simply have a wrong idea…period. It could be a sin or a blind spot. I don’t think it is correct to immediately blame their devotion. Their devotion isn’t the only spiritual factor in their life. Why not blame their husband or wife or priest, or friends, health, or because they were not taught what they needed to know?

If the devotion is the reason they believe wrongly, or the devotion makes them feel above the church, or that they are untouchable, then I would agree that they have a mistaken notion about that devotion and it should be brought to their attention. Because they are in error about the devotion, whatever devotion that might be. But the fault belongs to them and not the devotion.

But it is quite another thing to think that because they sin or sin seriously that it is due to their devotion or their misunderstanding of their devotion. Why attack their devotion? Maybe their devotion has improved them some or even considerably from what they once were. And if they continue, they will improve even more. And who knows if they continue their devotion which includes prayer, that they will receive the light they need to correct their problem. And without prayer what chance do they have to correct themselves?

If a person has a kink in their armor, then let’s correct the kink.

But if we think the kink will be fixed by advising them to throw away their armor, that doesn’t fix the kink and may even cause more problems. Although we might not advise pitching it away, it may sound like it and have the same effect.

Since the brown scapular was brought up I would like to say that I like it and I am for it for anyone who can live the prayer life that goes with it. And I would like to say that if Mary wanted to save someone from hell, she of all people could do it since she is at the right hand of her Son which makes her accessable to great graces. But did she promise this to anyone who dies wearing it?

Personally I have heartburn on this one, not because she isn’t capable, but I’m not all that sure about the accuracy of the documentation on this. It has been centuries ago when it was given, and that’s enough for me to think twice about this promise…if there was a promise.

May God’s smile warm all his children.

 

[rcwitness]

It sounds like if a person who has a devotion to St. Joe, St. Michael, St. Teresa, St. Paul, … then it is the fault of the devotion, or a faulty devotion, or a bad devotion, and not simply that a person sinned, or that they might be blinded in conscience to a sin for the time being.

Im saying a devotion is not superstition, it is what you make of it. What do you call a devotion?

So are we to look for the bad devotion to any saint when they sin? That is the first thing to be examined and if they are found to have a particular devotion, then that is the culprit…the devotion. So if any devotion has a person who is sinning, then they should junk the devotion.

The devotion is not outside of the faith which the devotee has. It is an expression of their faith. Or it is a dedication to adhere to the thing you are devoted to. I certainly don’t think that Mary is the culprit for my MIL’s rejection of Church Teaching.
If she has a devotion to Mary, yet continues to reject a Church Teaching, yes, I believe her devotion to Mary is vain and only adds more condemnation on herself. Do we not also suggest to one another not to recieve Communion while in this same state?
Now if she converted her heart towards the Church Teaching and asked Mary to help her to understand, follow, and make contrition through Jesus for accepting a sterilization surgery, then her devotion to Mary would be healthy, right?

Some will say, well no, it is just that this devotion should have corrected their wrong ideas and if this devotion hasn’t then they have a false devotion to this saint.

The devotion will not magically change a persistant sin. If the devotee acknowledges there is a sin, the devotion should be to turn from it. Or I can understand, a prayer to help reveal to us when we are in error. If this is the devotion my MIL has then after my question about the morality of sterilization and supporting it to my wife, would have been examined and raised to attention in her devotion to Mary. And I think we all know what Mary says.

It seems to me that what has happened is that they simply have a wrong idea…period. It could be a sin or a blind spot. I don’t think it is correct to immediately blame their devotion. Their devotion isn’t the only spiritual factor in their life. Why not blame their husband or wife or priest, or friends, health, or because they were not taught what they needed to know?

Im not saying their devotion is the culprit, but that their devotion is dysfunctional, false, unhealthy because it is their personal attempt to honor and seek holiness in an unworthy manner.

If the devotion is the reason they believe wrongly, or the devotion makes them feel above the church, or that they are untouchable, then I would agree that they have a mistaken notion about that devotion and it should be brought to their attention. Because they are in error about the devotion, whatever devotion that might be. But the fault belongs to them and not the devotion.

Again, its not so much a devotions fault, as their personal devotion is wrong.

Why attack their devotion?

Because it is adding judgment on themselves

If a person has a kink in their armor, then let’s correct the kink.

Amen!

But if we think the kink will be fixed by advising them to throw away their armor, that doesn’t fix the kink and may even cause more problems. Although we might not advise pitching it away, it may sound like it and have the same effect.

What is our armor? Is it our devotion, or what we are devoted to? I think it can be both, if they are in union together.

Since the brown scapular was brought up I would like to say that I like it and I am for it for anyone who can live the prayer life that goes with it. And I would like to say that if Mary wanted to save someone from hell, she of all people could do it since she is at the right hand of her Son which makes her accessable to great graces. But did she promise this to anyone who dies wearing it?

Personally I have heartburn on this one, not because she isn’t capable, but I’m not all that sure about the accuracy of the documentation on this. It has been centuries ago when it was given, and that’s enough for me to think twice about this promise…if there was a promise.

God bless your faith and your devotion to Him

 

[mommy_k]

We all need to be vigilant with devotions, and everything else too-
Our devotions should originate from love-not for the advantage of the devotee.

Upholding a church teaching is the same way-it can be done out of love for the church, or it can be upheld because there is an advantage to the person upholding the teaching.
Same thing with reception of sacraments-

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons apply to all of it, but to me spiritual life is the one thing that should be left to God, as we cannot see another’s interior. We can see spiritual life in action, but this is not the only indicator of depth.

If this is causing you to view you mil’s religious life in a negative way, why not talk to her about it? She seems to be having a conflict with love-love for her family and love for her church.

 

[ccmcmg]

What I honestly think: “How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.” Luke 6:42 Had a priest tell me the other day, when questioned about behavior that wasn’t particularly holy, that priests aren’t always holy. The only people who the Church has deemed “righteous” are the saints, Jesus, and Mary.

Agree.

Why must we judge the depth and maturity of another’s devotion? A devotion isn’t a ‘one time’ thing that sanctifies us, and makes all our decisions perfect to the Lord (ahhhh, I wish humans could be like that!). St. John Paul II does have great devotion the the Blessed Mother…yet, he still sinned and went to Confession for forgiveness. Where can we say one’s soul was at before the time the devotion and consecration began, to where it is now, and where it will be upon death? It’s part of the journey. When the journey ends, may our lives on earth end as well.

A devotion to God through Mary or another saint does not make one sinless or a saint themselves. We still sin. We still fall short of the Glory of God.

We can judge or say how the mother in law was incorrect in her advice, and against Church teachings, against God’s teachings. Yet, each and every one of us goes against God’s teachings, the Church’s teachings, every time we sin. Therefore, we have no true devotion?

Devotions are to God, through Mary, or another Saint. We consecrate ourselves to GOD, through Mary or another Saint.

I would say a ‘false’ devotion to Mary is one that focuses only on her, instead of Jesus/God through her.

 

[rcwitness]

Agree.

Why must we judge the depth and maturity of another’s devotion? A devotion isn’t a ‘one time’ thing that sanctifies us, and makes all our decisions perfect to the Lord (ahhhh, I wish humans could be like that!). St. John Paul II does have great devotion the the Blessed Mother…yet, he still sinned and went to Confession for forgiveness. Where can we say one’s soul was at before the time the devotion and consecration began, to where it is now, and where it will be upon death? It’s part of the journey. When the journey ends, may our lives on earth end as well.

A devotion to God through Mary or another saint does not make one sinless or a saint themselves. We still sin. We still fall short of the Glory of God.

We can judge or say how the mother in law was incorrect in her advice, and against Church teachings, against God’s teachings. Yet, each and every one of us goes against God’s teachings, the Church’s teachings, every time we sin. Therefore, we have no true devotion?

Devotions are to God, through Mary, or another Saint. We consecrate ourselves to GOD, through Mary or another Saint.

I would say a ‘false’ devotion to Mary is one that focuses only on her, instead of Jesus/God through her.

So we continue to sin, and reject Church Teaching and still have a pure devotion to Mary:shrug:

 

[ccmcmg]

So we continue to sin, and reject Church Teaching and still have a pure devotion to Mary:shrug:

Well, when you are able to stop sinning 100% and completely and still live on this earth, let me know.

Anytime we sin we are rejecting God’s teaching.

We need to worry about our own devotions…

 

[rcwitness]

We all need to be vigilant with devotions, and everything else too-
Our devotions should originate from love-not for the advantage of the devotee.

Upholding a church teaching is the same way-it can be done out of love for the church, or it can be upheld because there is an advantage to the person upholding the teaching.
Same thing with reception of sacraments-

Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons apply to all of it, but to me spiritual life is the one thing that should be left to God, as we cannot see another’s interior. We can see spiritual life in action, but this is not the only indicator of depth.

If this is causing you to view you mil’s religious life in a negative way, why not talk to her about it? She seems to be having a conflict with love-love for her family and love for her church.

I have talked to her about it! And she justifies her sterilization by stating it is only a tradition of man, and it is better to use our money to serve the poor instead of on 15 children. Also, not giving constant birth helps keep a woman’s body attractive so her husband wont lust for other women.

This is what her devotion to Mary leads her to

 

[rcwitness]

Well, when you are able to stop sinning 100% and completely and still live on this earth, let me know.

Anytime we sin we are rejecting God’s teaching./QUOTE

 

[rcwitness]

Well, when you are able to stop sinning 100% and completely and still live on this earth, let me know.

Anytime we sin we are rejecting God’s teaching.

We need to worry about our own devotions…

So just worry about ourselves and not help others who have unhealthy devotions? Is that what your devotion is?