What is a 'devotion to Mary'?

[ccmcmg]

I have talked to her about it! And she justifies her sterilization by stating it is only a tradition of man, and it is better to use our money to serve the poor instead of on 15 children. Also, not giving constant birth helps keep a woman’s body attractive so her husband wont lust for other women.

This is what her devotion to Mary leads her to

No, a devotion to Mary does not lead to that. You know that. We make our own mistakes, our own sins, and it can’t be contributed to a devotion to God.

It’s not good to hold one’s devotion to God, over someone’s head when they make bad decisions or sins. We are not to judge.

 

[ccmcmg]

So just worry about ourselves and not help others who have unhealthy devotions? Is that what your devotion is?

Wow. You seem to have some anger here and I am going to choose not to receive it.

God bless you.

 

[rcwitness]

Wow. You seem to have some anger here and I am going to choose not to receive it.

God bless you.

Anger towards what?

 

[ccmcmg]

So just worry about ourselves and not help others who have unhealthy devotions? Is that what your devotion is?

Anger towards what?

Accusing me of having an ‘unhealthy’ devotion, that it’s a devotion to not helping others, to having an ‘unhealthy’ devotion.

God bless you, truly, and may you work out your issues with your family issues (mother in law, etc). I will not be having this dialogue with you. It takes two to tango, and I’m leaving this dance floor.

 

[rcwitness]

No, a devotion to Mary does not lead to that. You know that. We make our own mistakes, our own sins, and it can’t be contributed to a devotion to God.

It’s not good to hold one’s devotion to God, over someone’s head when they make bad decisions or sins. We are not to judge.

So all devotions to Mary are holy and lead to holiness?

Im not accusing her of anything but rejection of Church Teaching, which she openly tells me. So what is her devotion to Mary leading her to do?

I think her devotion to Mary is her own perception of righteousness, and NOT Mary’s.

Do you want me to tell you other things she practices which are in contradiction to Church Teaching? Well, I will not. I have exposed her unhealthy devotion enough. I love her and appreciate much of her good faith. But I do not commend her devotion to Chirch Teaching, therefore, I do not commend her devotion to Mary. Has God blessed her and given her faith in spite of this, yes, I believe so. For the grace of God.

 

[rcwitness]

Accusing me of having an ‘unhealthy’ devotion, that it’s a devotion to not helping others, to having an ‘unhealthy’ devotion.

God bless you, truly, and may you work out your issues with your family issues (mother in law, etc). I will not be having this dialogue with you. It takes two to tango, and I’m leaving this dance floor.

I certainly did not accuse you of anything! You made this accussation, so the responsibility is on you to show where I have done so.

Are we not compelled by the Holy Spirit to support His Teachings through the Magisterium??? My mother in law is rejecting these Teachings, not just admitting to make a mistake! Then, she goes into her devotion to Mary and also to receive Our Holy Eucharist! Should I commend this devotion???

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I have talked to her about it! And she justifies her sterilization by stating it is only a tradition of man, and it is better to use our money to serve the poor instead of on 15 children. Also, not giving constant birth helps keep a woman’s body attractive so her husband wont lust for other women.

This is what her devotion to Mary leads her to

Whoa, TALK ABOUT A DISCONNECT HERE.

Just how do you get that ‘her devotion to MARY’ LED her to make those comments??

I’m going to try to say this as concisely as I can:

A person who has a devotion to another, be it God or God ‘through’ a saint, does not ‘sin’ because his or her devotion ‘isn’t pure enough’ or ‘isn’t true’.

A person who sins does so because that person rejects God in favor of HIS OR HER PERSONAL WILL --and in doing that, rejects THE SAINT also as well as God.

NOT because somehow by not doing the devotion ‘right’, he or she was ‘led astray’ and THEN rejected God because of that.

 

[rcwitness]

Whoa, TALK ABOUT A DISCONNECT HERE.

Just how do you get that ‘her devotion to MARY’ LED her to make those comments??

I’m going to try to say this as concisely as I can:

A person who has a devotion to another, be it God or God ‘through’ a saint, does not ‘sin’ because his or her devotion ‘isn’t pure enough’ or ‘isn’t true’.

A person who sins does so because that person rejects God in favor of HIS OR HER PERSONAL WILL --and in doing that, rejects THE SAINT also as well as God.

NOT because somehow by not doing the devotion ‘right’, he or she was ‘led astray’ and THEN rejected God because of that.

Again, im saying that her devotion is her expression of her faith towards whatever she desides to direct it to.

Can you please share with me what a devotion is? And, are you satisfied with ‘any’ devotion to Mary?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Again, im saying that her devotion is her expression of her faith towards whatever she desides to direct it to.

Can you please share with me what a devotion is? And, are you satisfied with ‘any’ devotion to Mary?

So, if I understand you correctly, you are blaming her devotion to Mary for leading her ‘astray’ when it comes to tenets of Catholic teaching. . .but you haven’t explained this.

You say, OBVIOUSLY her devotion is false, because she rejects Church teaching. But is the devotion itself, or her ‘way’ of observing it, the cause of her rejection of the teaching? You have not shown us that at all.

BUT you have not shown us in any way except your personal interpretation or opinion that it is her devotion to Mary and absolutely that alone, and nothing else, which, because she does it falsely, has **alone led her to reject Church teaching.

Could you please explain why you are claiming this?
**

 

[rcwitness]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are blaming her devotion to Mary for leading her ‘astray’ when it comes to tenets of Catholic teaching. . .but you haven’t explained this.

You say, OBVIOUSLY her devotion is false, because she rejects Church teaching. But is the devotion itself, or her ‘way’ of observing it, the cause of her rejection of the teaching? You have not shown us that at all.

BUT you have not shown us in any way except your personal interpretation or opinion that it is her devotion to Mary and absolutely that alone, and nothing else, which, because she does it falsely, has **alone led her to reject Church teaching.

Could you please explain why you are claiming this?
**

Yes, I can when I have some time to explain even further than I already have. Can you also please share with me what constitutes a devotion? What does devotion mean to you? What does it mean to Catholic Teaching?

 

[ccmcmg]

Yes, I can when I have some time to explain even further than I already have. Can you also please share with me what constitutes a devotion? What does devotion mean to you? What does it mean to Catholic Teaching?

It seems to me that there is time to lash out at people trying to help and understand; it does come across as accusatory, hostile and angry. Most of your responses have been short and like that. To expect others to delve deeper when you refuse to do so isn’t fair. At this point, in my opinion, this is nothing but a vicious circle that is frustrating and hurting those who are attempting to offer you assistance that you are asking for.

 

[rcwitness]

It seems to me that there is time to lash out at people trying to help and understand; it does come across as accusatory, hostile and angry. Most of your responses have been short and like that. To expect others to delve deeper when you refuse to do so isn’t fair. At this point, in my opinion, this is nothing but a vicious circle that is frustrating and hurting those who are attempting to offer you assistance that you are asking for.

Im not sure how you are getting offended

Im trying to recognize there can be a false devotion to Mary. And I obviously then, believe with sound reason, there can be a false and unhealthy devotion to Jesus, Our Eucharist, the Holy Spirit, God the Father, Church Teaching, etc. Paul told the Corinthians they were coming together unworthy! Do you not see their ‘devotion’ as being false and unhealthy? Was it not leading to condemnation?

 

[JRKH]

If I may jump in here a bit…It seems there is a bit of a disconnect going on.

Perhaps we should forget about RC’s MIL for a while…

RC is talking about something that many great saints have talked about - including DeMonfort. That is the fact that one can err in a devotion…it is not the fault of the devotion itself. It is not the fault of the devotion as fully described and properly embraced and followed. Rather it is the result of not fully embracing, or allowing something else to become more important.

One can get off track…they can perform many pious acts, but not truly internalize what the acts signify. They can allow themselves or their pride and ego to become the focus instead of the object and goal of their devotion. They can become prideful and overly zealous - OR - as has been mentioned things can be treated almost in a superstitious way.
Any of these will prevent one from growing in holiness.

Now - sometimes these things can be innocent. Other times there is greater culpability attached to it. It’s very difficult to quantify…but that seems to be what RC is trying to ask in this thread…
What constitutes a good and healthy devotion?
I would suggest that a peaceful submission to Church teaching would be one hallmark.
Another would be a humble heart…a heart that reflects the essence of the prayer of St Francis…(Lord make me an instrument of your peace…)

Peace
James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Im not sure how you are getting offended

Im trying to recognize there can be a false devotion to Mary. And I obviously then, believe with sound reason, there can be a false and unhealthy devotion to Jesus, Our Eucharist, the Holy Spirit, God the Father, Church Teaching, etc. Paul told the Corinthians they were coming together unworthy! Do you not see their ‘devotion’ as being false and unhealthy? Was it not leading to condemnation?

The problem is, nobody argues that there are not false devotions to Mary, or Jesus, etc.

What you are arguing though it seems to me is not that “there CAN be false devotions” but "My MIL because she does not accept some church teachings but does have a devotion to Mary **must therefore have a false devotion to Mary.’

**That is **not the same argument.

You appear to be claiming that the rejection of some doctrine and the ‘adherence’ to a devotion means the devotion must be false, and thus caused the rejection.

**IOW, you are claiming that the rejection of some doctrine is the result of a devotion which you claim has to be false because ‘she rejects other Catholic doctrine’.

**Thing is, she also ACCEPTS some other Catholic doctrines, doesn’t she?

If she accepts some doctrines, but rejects others, how is this due to a ‘false devotion?’ If the devotion were truly false, wouldn’t she reject ALL doctrines except the devotion to Mary?

**And since she accepts some doctrine, how do you know that the supposed ‘false devotion to Mary’ **is what caused her to reject some of the doctrine? How can you possibly know that, out of ALL the possible reasons that a person could choose to reject a Catholic teaching, that the reason your MIL rejected the teaching was a 'false devotion to Mary"?

**I personally have a devotion to Mary (and others); mine was through the DeMontfort Total Consecration. Of course I don’t think that ‘any old devotion’ is necessary a good and true one; we’ve all heard stories of people who either honestly get confused into thinking a devotion is a ‘magic bullet’ (it isn’t), or those who think that once they ‘confess Jesus with their mouth as Savior’ that they are saved no matter what evil they go on to commit. But I certainly would never, if I heard that a woman or man claimed to have a devotion to Mary, another saint, and/or The Father, Son, or Spirit yet ALSO supported gay marriage, or contraception, **immediately assume, “Gee, this person must have a FALSE DEVOTION”.

**I would think, "Gee, this person seems to be struggling with Catholic teaching. Thank goodness they also have a particular devotion to X, **because one can then hope that the saint/God will be helping guide that person away from wrong understanding of teachings into CORRECT understanding.’

I guess I’m a little more optimistic in not assuming the worst but waiting until I have some kind of facts or proof as to what the person’s difficulty or problem is and not running the risk of blaming something which probably is not the problem at all.
**

 

[rcwitness]

If I may jump in here a bit…It seems there is a bit of a disconnect going on.
Peace
James

The problem is, nobody argues that there are not false devotions to Mary, or Jesus, etc.

Thanks guys,

Sorry, Ive been traveling and not able to get back to your posts. Good Word both

I will try to give good attention to my replies, soon!

 

[rcwitness]

If I may jump in here a bit…It seems there is a bit of a disconnect going on.

Perhaps we should forget about RC’s MIL for a while…

Not a bad idea at all! But it is precisely the kind of unhealthy devotion I felt compelled to ask in the OP.

RC is talking about something that many great saints have talked about - including DeMonfort. **That is the fact that one can err in a devotion…it is not the fault of the devotion itself. ** It is not the fault of the devotion as fully described and properly embraced and followed. Rather it is the result of not fully embracing, or allowing something else to become more important.

I am suggesting the devotion which contradicts the desire of the person whom the devotion is directed towards is at fault. It is the active attempt to honor someone while being indifferent to what the person upholds. Its not ‘having a devotion’ but having a devotion which does not love what the person devoted to loves. Neither am I saying the devotion has to have the same amount of love and devotion as the person being devoted towards has themselves. This would be very unlikely for most devotees to Mary.

Now - sometimes these things can be innocent. Other times there is greater culpability attached to it. It’s very difficult to quantify…but that seems to be what RC is trying to ask in this thread…
What constitutes a good and healthy devotion?
I would suggest that a peaceful submission to Church teaching would be one hallmark.
Another would be a humble heart…a heart that reflects the essence of the prayer of St Francis…(Lord make me an instrument of your peace…)

Yes, and regarding my MIL, I have tried not to cross the boundaries of merely recognizing some contradiction (because its not the only one, but only one i felt should be addressed for sake of my point) whithin her religous devotions and the Spirit of the person she is devoted to, and the unholy judgmental attitude of substituting myself for the Lord who knows all hearts. So I certainly wont accuse her of heading to hell, or even being fully aware of the sin of sterilization. Or not having any good intentions in her devotions.
Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Not a bad idea at all! But it is precisely the kind of unhealthy devotion I felt compelled to ask in the OP.

Understood.
The reason I suggested setting it aside is because sometimes in discussions like this the example starts to become too much the focus instead of the core subject we wish to discuss…

Might be too early for me……had to read this next part twice…Let me see if I understand.

I am suggesting the devotion which contradicts the desire of the person whom the devotion is directed towards is at fault.

When you say “the devotion” are you referring to a given (and documented) devotion fully embraced and practiced (such as DeMonfort’s) or are you referring to any set of devotional practices (which could be mixed from different sources) that an individual might employ?

It is the active attempt to honor someone while being indifferent to what the person upholds.

Well said.

Its not ‘having a devotion’ but having a devotion which does not love what the person devoted to loves.

I think that this is a key point and maybe one that has been getting lost in the conversation.
One could make the argument that if one does not love that which Mary Loves then one does not have a devotion to Mary regardless of what sorts of rituals one practices.

Neither am I saying the devotion has to have the same amount of love and devotion as the person being devoted towards has themselves. This would be very unlikely for most devotees to Mary.

Yes - We do need to allow for imperfections and room for growth.

Overall - If I am hearing things right here - - - Part of the problem may be that we are using the term “devotion” to mean two somewhat different things.
On the one hand, a “Devotion” can bring to mind a certain set of practices and goals etc. In such a use one can rightly say that there is no “bad” devotion.
On the other hand, devotion (small “d”) can express something more general, personal and not so clearly defined.

What do you say folks…is this maybe part of where we are failing to communicate clearly?

Just some thoughts…

Peace
James

 

[rcwitness]

The problem is, nobody argues that there are not false devotions to Mary, or Jesus, etc.

What you are arguing though it seems to me is not that “there CAN be false devotions” but "My MIL because she does not accept some church teachings but does have a devotion to Mary must therefore have a false devotion to Mary.'
Yes because I think rejecting official Church Teaching is equal to having an unhealthy devotion to Mary. The devotion we have to Apostolic Teaching is the profound means which we would use to govern our devotions to the Lord’s mother. That is even how we receive her motherhood, through believing in the gospel. Therefore, disobeying in Church Teaching hurts the devotion to the Church’s model.

That is **not the same argument.

You appear to be claiming that the rejection of some doctrine and the ‘adherence’ to a devotion means the devotion must be false, and thus caused the rejection.

**IOW, you are claiming that the rejection of some doctrine is the result of a devotion which you claim has to be false because ‘she rejects other Catholic doctrine’.

Im claiming a rejection of a doctrine and devotion we excercise is one and the same, and accepting a doctrine and our devotions are one and the same. It the classic both/and Catholic approach.

**Thing is, she also ACCEPTS some other Catholic doctrines, doesn’t she?

If she accepts some doctrines, but rejects others, how is this due to a ‘false devotion?’ If the devotion were truly false, wouldn’t she reject ALL doctrines except the devotion to Mary?

**And since she accepts some doctrine, how do you know that the supposed ‘false devotion to Mary’ is what caused her to reject some of the doctrine? How can you possibly know that, out of ALL the possible reasons that a person could choose to reject a Catholic teaching, that the reason your MIL rejected the teaching was a 'false devotion to Mary"?
Did the Corinthians who Paul admonish reject all the Christian doctrines? Can we reject some of the Law and uphold the rest?
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
James 2:10
Now, we have the ministry of Reconciliation for those of us who fail by our weakness. And this is attained through remorse of wrong doin. But what is there fore the person who calls evil good, and good evil? There is disfunction and possible mortal sin.

I personally have a devotion to Mary (and others); mine was through the DeMontfort Total Consecration. Of course I don’t think that ‘any old devotion’ is necessary a good and true one; we’ve all heard stories of people who either honestly get confused into thinking a devotion is a ‘magic bullet’ (it isn’t), or those who think that once they ‘confess Jesus with their mouth as Savior’ that they are saved no matter what evil they go on to commit. But I certainly would never, if I heard that a woman or man claimed to have a devotion to Mary, another saint, and/or The Father, Son, or Spirit yet ALSO supported gay marriage, or contraception, immediately assume, “Gee, this person must have a FALSE DEVOTION”.

I would think, "Gee, this person seems to be struggling with Catholic teaching. Thank goodness they also have a particular devotion to X, because one can then hope that the saint/God will be helping guide that person away from wrong understanding of teachings into CORRECT understanding.'
Certainly “struggling” is very different than flat out rejecting! We can struggle with the temptations of the flesh and even fail many times, yet confess we have failled and have remorse for doing so, then our hearts are able to devote to our recourse without offense.

You may say, but a devotion to Mary is a holy prayer to receive forgiveness for things we do not even know we are doing wrong. Perhaps, but this is in danger of superstition. Consider what St Peter says,

7 Husbands, in the same way, show consideration for your wives in your life together, paying honor to the woman as the weaker sex,[a] since they too are also heirs of the gracious gift of life—so that nothing may hinder your prayers.

The devotion we have to our wives, husbands, brothers, sisters has direct impact on wheather or not our prayers are heard! This is because our prayers and devotion are deeply united to our faith and works.

Continue…

 

[rcwitness]

I guess I’m a little more optimistic in not assuming the worst but waiting until I have some kind of facts or proof as to what the person’s difficulty or problem is and not running the risk of blaming something which probably is not the problem at all.

More optimistic… Maybe. But why should we need more proof of unhealthy devotions than rejection of Church Teaching? We all recognize Protestantism has a lack of true devotion to God because they are not in full Communion with the Church. I would rather be a Protestant who does not claim to be Catholic yet devotes to what he believes to be from God. A Catholic who shamelessly rejects what the Church Teaches and then acts as though reverent to the Mother of the Church, is in danger of seperation from the Holy Spirit. And worse, because they are leading others to do the same.

We Catholics do not clean our own house, yet concern ourselves with Protestant faults. I have a Protestant friend who believes contraceptives to be wrong. She only dissagrees that the Church should go outside the Written Word to Teach it as binding on all Christians to be wrong. She maintains the duty of a couple should be to seek what is holy through their faith and relationship with Jesus. I think this is a more pure devotion than one which calls the Church a liar and yet flatters the Mother with repititious Rosaries and Kneeling before statues which they do not have to listen to. Imagine if the statue of Mary was constantly telling us Church Teaching! Isnt that how we should perceive a statue of Mary?

 

[rcwitness]

When you say “the devotion” are you referring to a given (and documented) devotion fully embraced and practiced (such as DeMonfort’s) or are you referring to any set of devotional practices (which could be mixed from different sources) that an individual might employ?

I think that this is a key point and maybe one that has been getting lost in the conversation.
One could make the argument that if one does not love that which Mary Loves then one does not have a devotion to Mary regardless of what sorts of rituals one practices.

Overall - If I am hearing things right here - - - Part of the problem may be that we are using the term “devotion” to mean two somewhat different things.
On the one hand, a “Devotion” can bring to mind a certain set of practices and goals etc. In such a use one can rightly say that there is no “bad” devotion.
On the other hand, devotion (small “d”) can express something more general, personal and not so clearly defined.

I have no doubt someone can be following the guidance of St DeMonfort and have a healthy devotion to Mary. But like you recognize, devotion in its very nature has a personal aspect which is always relavent even in our corporal devotions.

I think two Scriptures sum up healthy devotion to Mary and one is my signature below. The other is Rev 12:17

17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.