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Socrates92
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They probably can’t. What is the point you are trying to make though?
What Is a Just Wage?
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Eric_Hyom
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The point I am trying to make is this, there are around seven billion people on this Earth, there should be a global just wage.
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Socrates92
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That’s a crazy thought, as cost of living aren’t even comparable between first and third world countries. By cost-of-living, I mean the fine-line min. that is literally preventing one from dying. For example, in Canada in the winter, there is a min. amount of shelter required for survival. This shelter is priced at first-world Canadian prices, for the most part (barring shelters and charitable endeavors, which someone ultimately still has to purchase/rent on the poor’s behalf). A plausible min. survival wage (different from a living wage in that it’s not nearly as lucrative) might be around 10k/yr - yes I know this will vary by area. Let’s not get too caught up on these particular numbers. (hypothetical: 7000 for rent and utilities, 3000 for food. nothing for anything else - this hypothetical person walks everywhere and has no medical expenses or frills such as cell phone, etc.) In many third world countries, 10k/yr would put you among the richest of the rich.
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blackforest
Well-known member
Fair enough. I still suggest you read it in its entirety when you get a chance. My only issue is that the author, unlike her study subjects, is privileged enough to stop and start her experiment whenever she pleases. She does acknowledge this fact, but still . . .
Ooooooooooooo, this actually gets a lot more complicated. So we’re comparing things to 1968?
Unions were stronger. People had pensions, not what corporations brag is the the 4-letter word that starts with an F, ends with a K, and screws people over. (Give up? 401K!) Minimum wage was more consistent with cost of living; today $7.25 comes nowhere close. Employers didn’t demand college degrees at the ridiculous extent that they do today. Even if you needed one, you could actually afford a state school without graduating at nearly the level of debt that college alumni shoulder. Globalization hadn’t yet engendered the wide-scale shipping of blue collar jobs overseas to cheaper labor and questionable human rights conditions.
Believe me, I’m not yearning for the “good old days” of 1968. Crime and unemployment rates were higher. But really, it’s a mixed bag.
Personal responsibility like staying out of unnecessary debt are definitely crucial. But our Catechism makes clear that businesses have their own responsibility to pay a just wage. How do you suggest that Catholic business owners define a just wage and follow this mandate of our faith? How should we go about advocating on a policy level for just wages?
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Socrates92
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I’ll address your post in its entirety when I get the chance, but for now, this:
The Catechism teaches an obligation to pay just wages, which therefore morally binds businesses
Therefore, there should be affirmative policy in legislation towards this end?
The reason I ask, is that there are certain morally binding precepts which are not the province, or competence, of government to define or enforce. I’m of the opinion that “just wage” is one of these, but I’m curious to hear your perspective.
So, am I accurate to conclude that you are taking it as a given that,
The Catechism teaches an obligation to pay just wages, which therefore morally binds businesses
Therefore, there should be affirmative policy in legislation towards this end?
The reason I ask, is that there are certain morally binding precepts which are not the province, or competence, of government to define or enforce. I’m of the opinion that “just wage” is one of these, but I’m curious to hear your perspective.
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Thom18
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I’m not sure if I’m adding anything new, but:
A just wage must be something that fairly meets the needs of both individuals- the employee, and the employer. The employer is worthy of a just wage as well- if we say to ourselves that an employee, regardless of their position, is owed “enough to support themselves” (whatever we consider that to mean- just the essentials, or some luxury as well?)- then what do we have to say about the person paying them? Are they deserving only of the same as their employee?
A just wage, in my opinion (this is nothing but my opinion), shouldn’t be considered anything besides what the position is worth. The just wage can be said to be the minimum amount that the employee is worth for their time and talents- any pay above that is a courtesy, anything below is theft. Some guides can help us determine what this “just wage” is.
Firstly, what kind of work is being performed? Is it something that someone with minimum skills can do, or is it something requiring some sort of prolonged training or education? The employee’s time for that training, and the talents derived from it, should be considered.
Secondly, how intense is the work? Are there long periods of rest, where they’re still on the clock but aren’t busy? For example, I used to work in a deli, and while we were busy often, we sometimes had a lot of down time as well. We still got paid for this time, and that is just, because while we weren’t actively doing something, we were spending our time there for our employer. We should also consider what the task does to the mind and body. Very “menial” jobs usually aren’t so mentally taxing, but they certainly take a toll on the body. Employers need to keep this is mind when deciding what to pay their employees. If they aren’t willing to pay so much “up front”, they had better have a great healthcare plan and pension.
A just wage must be something that fairly meets the needs of both individuals- the employee, and the employer. The employer is worthy of a just wage as well- if we say to ourselves that an employee, regardless of their position, is owed “enough to support themselves” (whatever we consider that to mean- just the essentials, or some luxury as well?)- then what do we have to say about the person paying them? Are they deserving only of the same as their employee?
A just wage, in my opinion (this is nothing but my opinion), shouldn’t be considered anything besides what the position is worth. The just wage can be said to be the minimum amount that the employee is worth for their time and talents- any pay above that is a courtesy, anything below is theft. Some guides can help us determine what this “just wage” is.
Firstly, what kind of work is being performed? Is it something that someone with minimum skills can do, or is it something requiring some sort of prolonged training or education? The employee’s time for that training, and the talents derived from it, should be considered.
Secondly, how intense is the work? Are there long periods of rest, where they’re still on the clock but aren’t busy? For example, I used to work in a deli, and while we were busy often, we sometimes had a lot of down time as well. We still got paid for this time, and that is just, because while we weren’t actively doing something, we were spending our time there for our employer. We should also consider what the task does to the mind and body. Very “menial” jobs usually aren’t so mentally taxing, but they certainly take a toll on the body. Employers need to keep this is mind when deciding what to pay their employees. If they aren’t willing to pay so much “up front”, they had better have a great healthcare plan and pension.
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blackforest
Well-known member
Short answer? Yes.
From CCC 1913-1915:
The US Conference of Catholic Bishops is doing precisely this on the issue of wages. http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act.../upload/minimum-wage-backgrounder-2014-01.pdf
They’re defining a “just wage” as a higher minimum wage. But as the thread title suggests, I’ve left “just wage” open for interpretation.
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Eric_Hyom
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First of all, God is the God of the whole world, he is not just the God of Canada.
In the Third world thousands of children die needlessly every single day as a result of grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. Hundreds of millions of people go to bed hungry.
Now it might seem very noble that you do not want to see Canadians suffer in the same way, but where is the justice for people already living in grinding poverty?
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DarkLight
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I think there’s several different things getting mixed here.
One is that cost of living really is different. Even in the U.S., I could rent an apartment when I lived in MI for about half of what I could rent an equivalent one here. In many ways here I’m making more but getting equal or less because the exact same goods cost me more here. So a just wage could be lower up in MI because I could afford the same goods for a lower wage.
Two, there are places that don’t have access to a lot of things that they really should. I know as a tenant, my government mandates that I be provided with access to potable water, and to sanitation systems. I can expect at least some sort of access to medical care. I know when I buy food it’s been tested so as to be free from contaminants. I know when I go to work, the government has regulations so I’m not needlessly endangered.
Those are things that might be luxuries in some parts of the world.
Three, as I mentioned upthread, there can be things that are expected by society to function, but not strictly necessary. A cell phone is that where I am. I could manage life in general pretty well if all we had was a phone at the village store for emergencies or something. But in order to get and keep a job, society expects that I am reachable by phone (and like many newer apartments, there isn’t a phone jack around here for a landline). Similarly, last time I was job hunting practically everything told me to apply online, so I need internet access for at least long enough to do that.
One is that cost of living really is different. Even in the U.S., I could rent an apartment when I lived in MI for about half of what I could rent an equivalent one here. In many ways here I’m making more but getting equal or less because the exact same goods cost me more here. So a just wage could be lower up in MI because I could afford the same goods for a lower wage.
Two, there are places that don’t have access to a lot of things that they really should. I know as a tenant, my government mandates that I be provided with access to potable water, and to sanitation systems. I can expect at least some sort of access to medical care. I know when I buy food it’s been tested so as to be free from contaminants. I know when I go to work, the government has regulations so I’m not needlessly endangered.
Those are things that might be luxuries in some parts of the world.
Three, as I mentioned upthread, there can be things that are expected by society to function, but not strictly necessary. A cell phone is that where I am. I could manage life in general pretty well if all we had was a phone at the village store for emergencies or something. But in order to get and keep a job, society expects that I am reachable by phone (and like many newer apartments, there isn’t a phone jack around here for a landline). Similarly, last time I was job hunting practically everything told me to apply online, so I need internet access for at least long enough to do that.
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Socrates92
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Not particularly noble. That’s just basic human decency. The same decency that leads me to not want third world inhabitants to suffer in the way that they, in fact, do. Idealism aside, we were talking about justice in human actions. This has to be addressed in terms of conditions as they are at a given moment. You might think a catastrophic hurricane which wrecks lifes and wipes out half of an areas productive capacity is a horrible injustice, but it is what it is, and de facto affects what the inhabitants of the disaster zone can demand from each other in justice.
You’ll need to elaborate on how you think severe poverty is immediately preventable.
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Socrates92
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I’m realizing that you meant that the concept of a just wage should exist worldwide, not that a just wage in Indian slums is should be monetarily equivalent to a just wage in a Cdn/American city. That makes your idea more plausible than what I thought you were saying. .
The point I was initially trying to make was that, in America (and Canada) a just wage concept should not be as necessary as it arguably once was. A large portion of the population has the ability to become more self-sufficient through saving and investing than before - not just the top 1% as the case may be in poorer countries. The fact that most people are doing this I think implies widespread; societal financial irresponsibility, not that people are being paid unfairly Of course you can always find outliers wiith actual desperate need at the poorest levels.
The point I was initially trying to make was that, in America (and Canada) a just wage concept should not be as necessary as it arguably once was. A large portion of the population has the ability to become more self-sufficient through saving and investing than before - not just the top 1% as the case may be in poorer countries. The fact that most people are doing this I think implies widespread; societal financial irresponsibility, not that people are being paid unfairly Of course you can always find outliers wiith actual desperate need at the poorest levels.
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Socrates92
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I’m sorry, but I don’t quite see how you’re reading an admonishment of policy action into those paragraphs. Active participation in public life doesn’t necessarily imply government action to me. Actually, I tend to think policy impedes action by restricting the range of decisions left up to the individual citizens.
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Eric_Hyom
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If justice is to happen, it must take all the people on Earth into consideration. Most of the big companies exploit this difference in what is considered a just wage. It makes sense for a company like Apple, to manufacture its products in a country where labour is a dollar an hour.
I am not sure how healthy this is for America or China. There is only one formula to earn a billion, you underpay your workers and overcharge your customers. Instead of reinvesting in the company, the billions are shared between a handful of people.
I am not sure how healthy this is for America or China. There is only one formula to earn a billion, you underpay your workers and overcharge your customers. Instead of reinvesting in the company, the billions are shared between a handful of people.
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KMC
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If you look at the net margin for certain industries like grocery…net margin is around 3%. Oil Companies are around 8% last time I checked. Is 3 cents on the dollar or 8 cents on the dollar overcharging? I’m sure you might find an example of overcharging somewhere, but I disagree with your thesis of “there is only one formula to earn a billion dollars”.
blackforest
Well-known member
So when it comes to just wages, how would you put this portion of the Catechism into practice?
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Socrates92
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In some places, $1/hr is a pretty good wage, so I doubt the newly employed there feel as exploited as you might think. If you think about the drastic purchasing power Apple has, they’re probably actually paying quite a bit above the market rates in those countries.
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Socrates92
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I’d go even further and disagree that in technology that there is any such thing as overcharging, except in a purely subjective sense. Which prices should people be entitled to compel companies to sell the fruits of their creative energies at? This isn’t even a grey area like wages arguably are. Your tablet is worth whatever you are willing to pay for it.
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Theo520
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How do you know this?
Have you visited any of these places abroad, or are you just reciting talking points?
Also, how exactly do we deny them just treatment?
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Socrates92
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We’ll see how that goes. Ethiopia still seems like a mixed bag
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TheOldColonel
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Ok, sports fans! Let’s root for a comeback!
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