S
Socrates92
Guest
It’s a good thing we have globalization and labour offshoring to gradually drive up the employment rates and pittance wages in these areas.
What Is a Just Wage?
- Thread starter blackforest
- Start date
- Status
blackforest
Well-known member
This is precisely why the CCC passage cited at the beginning of this thread clarifies that a mutual agreement to a wage doesn’t automatically make the wage a just one.
blackforest
Well-known member
It is more than that. It is a mandate from our Church.
This is also consistent with Catholic teaching.
Denying somebody basic living expenses, especially when an employer most clearly has the means to provide it, creates unnecessary poverty, an unjust intrusion into the lives of the poor.
T
Theo520
Guest
That is a good explanation of our trade policy the past 40 years.
K
KMC
Guest
So what is that wage?
P
Peeps
Guest
I’ve been reading this thread from its start date.
I think many people are too quick to blame the Big Corporations and greedy employers.
The U.S. DOES offer everyone the opportunity to earn a living wage because everyone receives a free education from kindergarten through 12th grade. This isn’t the case in many countries where an education is costly and often geographically non-accessible to much of the population.
But here’s the problem–for several decades, U.S. education did not emphasize future employment. Instead, education was all about self-actualization and becoming “anything you want to be because you’re unique and very very special.”
I don’t know about you, but what I want to be is sleeping 10 hours at a stretch and sitting all day on a sofa drinking a cold soda and watching endless hours of television while people shower me with twenties!.
I am not exaggerating the “you can be whatever you want to be.” This was the mantra of so many public schools through the 1980s and 90s and I think it led to a lot of young people failing to realize that they had to choose a career that would not only make them happy, but also pay a living wage!
Thankfully this seems to be changing, and schools are going back to asking from Kindergarten on, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” and then actually teaching the students about all the possible careers (other than rock star or professional athlete).
I think many people are too quick to blame the Big Corporations and greedy employers.
The U.S. DOES offer everyone the opportunity to earn a living wage because everyone receives a free education from kindergarten through 12th grade. This isn’t the case in many countries where an education is costly and often geographically non-accessible to much of the population.
But here’s the problem–for several decades, U.S. education did not emphasize future employment. Instead, education was all about self-actualization and becoming “anything you want to be because you’re unique and very very special.”
I don’t know about you, but what I want to be is sleeping 10 hours at a stretch and sitting all day on a sofa drinking a cold soda and watching endless hours of television while people shower me with twenties!.
I am not exaggerating the “you can be whatever you want to be.” This was the mantra of so many public schools through the 1980s and 90s and I think it led to a lot of young people failing to realize that they had to choose a career that would not only make them happy, but also pay a living wage!
Thankfully this seems to be changing, and schools are going back to asking from Kindergarten on, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” and then actually teaching the students about all the possible careers (other than rock star or professional athlete).
P
Peeps
Guest
There are plenty of job openings in the U.S. in careers that DO play a LIVING WAGE.
At the moment in our city there are several hundred openings in the skilled trades (welding, CNC programming, pipe-fitting, mechanics, etc.) With their two-year training and certificate, welders make more money than me (Bachelor’s Degree) or my husband (Master’s Degree). They also don’t have to get fit by going to a gym!
There are also critical shortages in the various health care professions (nursing, lab, physical therapy), etc. We were hurting all winter because we were short three employees in our department. We had no applicants.
And there is also a huge need for more computer professionals, especially programmers.
And there is a teacher shortage, especially for male and minority teachers, across the country.
Regarding the health care professions, yes, they often require a Bachelor’s Degree. However, almost all the health care allied health professions have a “lower-tier” that requires only a two-year Associates degree, and often the hospital or clinic will reimburse tuition if the employee decides to pursue the Bachelor’s Degree. These lower-tier positions pay a living wage. You won’t be able to buy a mansion, but you can afford an apartment or modest home (depending on where in the U.S. you live), and all your other living expenses.
What’s the catch? To be eligible to pursue education for any of these careers, a person MUST have a high school diploma or equivalent. Remember, in the U.S. high school is FREE for all. So no one can say that they were denied the opportunity to earn a high school diploma.
Sadly, in many cities like ours, the high-school drop-out rate is very high, especially among minorities. In our city, 50% of African-American males drop out of high school. Essentially they have abdicated their opportunity to earn a living wage because they chose to drop out of high school. (In our city, the cause for this is often involvement with street gangs who offer the opportunity to earn very high incomes selling drugs or committing other crimes–very appealing, until you get shot and die)
But…they DID HAVE the opportunity to earn a living wage. Rich people, greedy employers, “Big Companies,” etc. did NOT deny these people a living wage. They denied themselves the living wage by dissing school…
But I’m very happy to say that n the U.S., many people who make poor decisions as youths still have opportunities to acquire training that makes them eligible for careers that pay a living wage.
We have an alternative high school in our city, and it graduates many older young people every year, thus giving them back the opportunity to seek out a career that will pay a living wage.
Even incarcerated people can earn their high school diploma or work on college courses! And there are programs that help people who have been incarcerated to find gainful employment and be assimilated back into society again.
We are the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Guaranteed Living Wage.
At the moment in our city there are several hundred openings in the skilled trades (welding, CNC programming, pipe-fitting, mechanics, etc.) With their two-year training and certificate, welders make more money than me (Bachelor’s Degree) or my husband (Master’s Degree). They also don’t have to get fit by going to a gym!
There are also critical shortages in the various health care professions (nursing, lab, physical therapy), etc. We were hurting all winter because we were short three employees in our department. We had no applicants.
And there is also a huge need for more computer professionals, especially programmers.
And there is a teacher shortage, especially for male and minority teachers, across the country.
Regarding the health care professions, yes, they often require a Bachelor’s Degree. However, almost all the health care allied health professions have a “lower-tier” that requires only a two-year Associates degree, and often the hospital or clinic will reimburse tuition if the employee decides to pursue the Bachelor’s Degree. These lower-tier positions pay a living wage. You won’t be able to buy a mansion, but you can afford an apartment or modest home (depending on where in the U.S. you live), and all your other living expenses.
What’s the catch? To be eligible to pursue education for any of these careers, a person MUST have a high school diploma or equivalent. Remember, in the U.S. high school is FREE for all. So no one can say that they were denied the opportunity to earn a high school diploma.
Sadly, in many cities like ours, the high-school drop-out rate is very high, especially among minorities. In our city, 50% of African-American males drop out of high school. Essentially they have abdicated their opportunity to earn a living wage because they chose to drop out of high school. (In our city, the cause for this is often involvement with street gangs who offer the opportunity to earn very high incomes selling drugs or committing other crimes–very appealing, until you get shot and die)
But…they DID HAVE the opportunity to earn a living wage. Rich people, greedy employers, “Big Companies,” etc. did NOT deny these people a living wage. They denied themselves the living wage by dissing school…
But I’m very happy to say that n the U.S., many people who make poor decisions as youths still have opportunities to acquire training that makes them eligible for careers that pay a living wage.
We have an alternative high school in our city, and it graduates many older young people every year, thus giving them back the opportunity to seek out a career that will pay a living wage.
Even incarcerated people can earn their high school diploma or work on college courses! And there are programs that help people who have been incarcerated to find gainful employment and be assimilated back into society again.
We are the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Guaranteed Living Wage.
blackforest
Well-known member
I think you make some excellent points about the need for better and more realistic career training.
Do remember that for all of us who go to work for a just, living wage, our society depends on those people who all too often don’t earn it - daycare workers for our children, factory workers to produce our work clothes, food service workers for those night when we don’t have time to cook, etc. That sector will never go away, and it’s our moral, Magisterial duty as Catholics to make sure that these workers are justly compensated.
Do remember that for all of us who go to work for a just, living wage, our society depends on those people who all too often don’t earn it - daycare workers for our children, factory workers to produce our work clothes, food service workers for those night when we don’t have time to cook, etc. That sector will never go away, and it’s our moral, Magisterial duty as Catholics to make sure that these workers are justly compensated.
R
RCIAGraduate
Guest
If I ask may ask you personally, though, what can be done to ensure we stay and continue to be a land of opportunity for all, especially for our disadvantaged?
What can be done to ensure ample opportunity and a very high level of social mobility for the people of America. This is going to sound harsh (and perhaps this is because the grass seems greener on the other sides) but it does seem like many nations like those in Europe and parts of Asia, it is better off to be low-income/working-class or poor there. Here in America, it seems a bit more intimidating due to threats like medical bankruptcy and college debt.
Also, Peep, you mentioned a good point about education and being practical, do you think it might be a great idea if we could develop more vocational high schools that offer a both career and college prep options? As well as perhaps, utilize the middle school years (grades 6 to 9) to promote career discovery and exploration?
Additionally, do you really think there are good “living wage” jobs for everyone? In an age of automation, offshoring and widespread community breakdown (from the inner cities to depressed rural areas), many seem to have their doubts.
What can be done to ensure ample opportunity and a very high level of social mobility for the people of America. This is going to sound harsh (and perhaps this is because the grass seems greener on the other sides) but it does seem like many nations like those in Europe and parts of Asia, it is better off to be low-income/working-class or poor there. Here in America, it seems a bit more intimidating due to threats like medical bankruptcy and college debt.
Also, Peep, you mentioned a good point about education and being practical, do you think it might be a great idea if we could develop more vocational high schools that offer a both career and college prep options? As well as perhaps, utilize the middle school years (grades 6 to 9) to promote career discovery and exploration?
Additionally, do you really think there are good “living wage” jobs for everyone? In an age of automation, offshoring and widespread community breakdown (from the inner cities to depressed rural areas), many seem to have their doubts.
Last edited:
S
Socrates92
Guest
Personally, Im looking forward to some huge postsecondary revolution in the way it’s provided. In the age of the internet with average tuition around 30,000 (I’m ballparking - maybe this is off), there’s a huge market opportunity for someone who can figure out how to drastically reduce costs while making post-secondary more relevent. I’m willing to bet they’ll be a growing demand for non-traditional post-secondary degrees by employers too.
P
Peeps
Guest
To ensure that the United States continues to be a land of opportunity for all, especially for the disadvantaged, Christians need to continue to live out their faith boldly, obeying the teachings of the Church and Bible in all their endeavors, including their workplace.
There are plenty of examples in this country of good CEOs and bosses who treat their employees the way they would like to be treated by paying a fair wage and benefits, and taking a personal interest in the health and lives of their staff… These companies generally seem to enjoy success in the marketplace, as people want to work there and are very loyal to their leadership team.
Since I have never lived outside of the U.S., I can’t make an intelligent comment about the advantages that Europe and Asia offer over the U.S. I think that people who are unhappy in the U.S. might want to consider picking up stakes and making an overseas move. During the Olympics, NBC aired an interview with a man who had been stationed in South Korea while in the military, and he loved it so much that he moved back after his military service was over, and started a business. He still loves it.
Yes, I believe we need more vocational high schools. When my husband and I were in high school four decades ago, there was a thriving Vocationa School in our city, and my husband enrolled in TV repair classes. He never used it to get a job, but it certainly taught him a lot of practical skills. I know nurses who went through that Vocational School.
Yes, there are plenty of living wage jobs for everyone. I was not exaggerating the number of openings in the skilled trades in our area–this is posted information. My brother tells me about the woes his company suffers trying to hire qualified welders and mechanics–they can’t seem to find anyone who honestly wants to work hard and get dirty!
Same for health careers. And teaching, And computers.
The trouble is, these jobs require education after high school, but often a company will help pay. And there are scholarships out there; e.g., Kalamazoo, Michigan gives a college scholarship to every student who graduates from one of their public high schools. Our city is working on getting a scholarship program like this, but at them moment, they only give out a few dozen scholarships.
I’d like to see our educational system overhauled, and less emphasis on a classical education and more on a practical education. Hey, I love the idea of a classical education with training in philosophy, logic, literature, history, etc., but no one needs to know this stuff to weld or fix a machine or do a CBC!
My brother has a certificate, no college. But over the years, he has gotten a rather good education in history by doing his own reading, visiting historic sites, and most of all, talking to people who know history. He reads a lot. Nothing stops people from getting books from the library for free and reading up on all the topics that make up a classical education.
There are plenty of examples in this country of good CEOs and bosses who treat their employees the way they would like to be treated by paying a fair wage and benefits, and taking a personal interest in the health and lives of their staff… These companies generally seem to enjoy success in the marketplace, as people want to work there and are very loyal to their leadership team.
Since I have never lived outside of the U.S., I can’t make an intelligent comment about the advantages that Europe and Asia offer over the U.S. I think that people who are unhappy in the U.S. might want to consider picking up stakes and making an overseas move. During the Olympics, NBC aired an interview with a man who had been stationed in South Korea while in the military, and he loved it so much that he moved back after his military service was over, and started a business. He still loves it.
Yes, I believe we need more vocational high schools. When my husband and I were in high school four decades ago, there was a thriving Vocationa School in our city, and my husband enrolled in TV repair classes. He never used it to get a job, but it certainly taught him a lot of practical skills. I know nurses who went through that Vocational School.
Yes, there are plenty of living wage jobs for everyone. I was not exaggerating the number of openings in the skilled trades in our area–this is posted information. My brother tells me about the woes his company suffers trying to hire qualified welders and mechanics–they can’t seem to find anyone who honestly wants to work hard and get dirty!
Same for health careers. And teaching, And computers.
The trouble is, these jobs require education after high school, but often a company will help pay. And there are scholarships out there; e.g., Kalamazoo, Michigan gives a college scholarship to every student who graduates from one of their public high schools. Our city is working on getting a scholarship program like this, but at them moment, they only give out a few dozen scholarships.
I’d like to see our educational system overhauled, and less emphasis on a classical education and more on a practical education. Hey, I love the idea of a classical education with training in philosophy, logic, literature, history, etc., but no one needs to know this stuff to weld or fix a machine or do a CBC!
My brother has a certificate, no college. But over the years, he has gotten a rather good education in history by doing his own reading, visiting historic sites, and most of all, talking to people who know history. He reads a lot. Nothing stops people from getting books from the library for free and reading up on all the topics that make up a classical education.
Last edited:
T
Theo520
Guest
The pressure to find qualified people is hard for the employer but great news, it just takes time for the market to respond, for people the get trained or certified. We have plenty of people that need living wage jobs, and may just need some extra guidance to get there (and motivation)
po18guy
Well-known member
Hoping to re-rail this, I can only quote John Fogerty from CCR’s song Fortunate Son:
Was that a moral advancement?
The bad guy in all moral arguments is the human being - regardless of status.
In the past 100 years in America, we see that corporate greed was replaced with union greed.
Was that a moral advancement?
The bad guy in all moral arguments is the human being - regardless of status.
T
Theo520
Guest
I’d say Corps are just as greedy, that’s their nature. They just have a joint custody relationship now with Unions. At least with most corporations, it’s a self correcting problem (competition)
po18guy
Well-known member
All are run by humans - thus their capacity for injustice is equal. Corporations pay their shareholders via profits and want to cut losses/wages-benefits. Unions force pay and benefits increases for their members, at the ultimate loss of some jobs - paying themselves in the process.
I have yet to see union officials whose pay stops when the workers are on the picket line.
Greed.
It’s universal.
I have yet to see union officials whose pay stops when the workers are on the picket line.
Greed.
It’s universal.
D
DarkLight
Guest
I’m a bit reluctant to push too much on people choosing to drop out of high school.
Yes, it’s a bad idea. But it’s also a very hard one to recover from. And I think a society that depends on 16 year olds making smart choices (or even 18 year olds) is probably a bad idea.
Yes, it’s a bad idea. But it’s also a very hard one to recover from. And I think a society that depends on 16 year olds making smart choices (or even 18 year olds) is probably a bad idea.
T
Theo520
Guest
We have alternative schools and GED programs, it can be recovered from.
D
DarkLight
Guest
Yeah, but most of them are only funded if you’re still young, and a lot of them don’t work around jobs.
T
Theo520
Guest
I think it’s funded through the early 20’s, and there are online GED schools that are affordable.
The availability is there, just not the motivation. That’s meeting our public obligation for them I feel.
D
DarkLight
Guest
It’s been several years, but I used to teach in a college in one such area. I’m honestly not convinced that it really helped anyone. Many of the students were obviously unprepared for college and lacking in very basic skills. Sending kids to college doesn’t help if they can’t actually do the work.
- Status