What Is a Just Wage?

[RCIAGraduate]

This could be an argument for a more effective adult school system though, could workforce development among communities be improved if we had more robust adult schools which provided an alternative for the poor. The good thing about the US is our community college provide “second chances” and can act as a safety hatch, perhaps adding adult colleges into the continuum can be another solution. I made another thread and one of the posters discussed the need for life skills development (mentors, social support), could adult schools be one avenue to create such programs to provide mentors for disadvantaged folks as well as a “second chance” in career and educational prospects?

In respect to dropping out though, I understand the statistics don’t necessarily do follow-up (meaning people might drop back in especially if its a temporary issue or set back), though I think prevention is the best. I believe high schools could do more to provide better support especially in this transitional time, this is where I really approve of good and safe mentoring programs. Conservatives (pardon for the politicization) seem to point out arguments like “culture of poverty” why not provide alternatives such as good, safe and intensive mentoring programs which can help break the cycle. One possible model I like is the Thread program which provides multiple mentors to high-need, at-risk students for 10 years. The model is being adjusted but it does provide way more support than a mentor you meet once a month (those can offer some benefits but only so much). Another program I think promising but expensive is Friends of the Children which provides a professional mentor between grades K-12 (a model for school social workers). These need to be well-structured, safe and effective but I believe these can be a promising model to scale up if only there was a political shift to ensure the will for such programs (and to ensure safe, strong and effective implementation).

Perhaps in theory, these programs could be set up within either the Department of Justice or the Department of Education, under the auspices of breaking the cycles of crime and poverty? Theo, do you think generous funding and effective implementation could truly make an impact?

Pardon the rant, I love discussing grand ideas for society.

 

[Socrates92]

Explain why the wage gap we have is necessary so that wages can be “sustained,” please.

I was talking about the context of a concrete company. A company that is paying out more in labour than what is being produced by those labour roles will tend to have a harder time staying in business. If your employer shuts up shop, that tends to hit your earning potential somewhat.

" Eighty two percent of the wealth generated last year went to the richest 1% of the global population, while the 3.7 billion people who make up the poorest half of the world saw no increase in their wealth, according to a new Oxfam report released today.

I’m not sure what concrete business practises you would conclude should follow from these stats. It would be more helpful to look at stats representing the wage growth differential within corporations, rather than a vague comparison between the richest 1% and bottom 50%. 50% is a pretty broad band too, so it’d be interesting to know how the wage growth is broken down, maybe by quintiles. I’d hypothesize that the stagnant qrowth isn’t uniform across. The world’s poorest countries are also rife with political turmoil and corruption, which you can’t exactly pin on the average 1%er.

It’s also interesting that this quote compares financial apples to oranges. (gives share of wealth generated for rich, but for poor, tells us instead about their wage growth) Hard to compare the two. What was the “wage” growth of the 1%?

 

[Socrates92]

Meh, I’m going to be technical. The title of the thread was “What is a Just Wage?”, not “What is a Charitable Wage?”. Justice and Charity are morally distinct in that Charity goes beyond justice. As I understood it, the question was precisely about the bare minimum that Christians are required to do in justice. Once this is established, it would be morally binding always and everywhere. This does not apply when we are talking about charitable giving.

 

[Paddy1989]

What do members here think of Distributism as an alternative to regulated and unregulated capitalism and socialism?

 

[Socrates92]

Often it is the poorer people who need to win, they pay for lottery tickets with money they possibly cannot afford to loose. More than a million people have to loose a £1, in order for one person to win a million. I think the UK lottery odds of winning the top prize is around fourteen million to one.

I think the lottery is evil for all those who loose money they can’t afford to loose. You hear stories of people who do not deserve to win live the playboy lifestyle. I often hear about people who say, if they won, they would help other people. But they are then helping people with money that others have lost.

I’m not sure that most people buying £1 lottery tickets are going to spend themselves into destitution. If they are, they have a serious problem, and I’d say most of the moral blame lies with that individual. My opinion is a little different with casinos, in which much larger sums are routinely gambled away, in a manner that is designed to prey on addiction.

Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, I was comparing playing in a pro sports league to winning the lottery. When you consider the actual chances of someone making the NHL, that’s essentially what it is. These kids have made it big, but no one’s been harmed in the process. (Assuming fans are spending themselves into destitution $200 ticket at a time, but that’s on them to know what they can afford). You may say “by comparison”, but all those professions you mentioned, with the exception of farm workers, are generally making a lot more than a pittance.

 

[Socrates92]

What’s the problem with hedge funds?

 

[Peeps]

I think mentoring is important, especially when a child/teen is living in a single-parent home.

However, I think (although I may be really wrong, as I have no idea if research supports this thought), that the mentors should come from the same race and general background of the children/teens that they mentor.

I don’t see why an African American teenager would listen to a white male. The idea of “white privilege” is rampant among African Americans and among many white Americans as well, and whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter. If the young African American teen believes in “white privilege,” then he/she will probably not feel comfortable with a white mentor, and will believe that the white mentor was successful in school and work mainly because of their white color.

If my theory is correct, then this will put a burden on people from minority groups who are succeeding in their careers (making enough money to enjoy a decent standard of living) to mentor, and that’s time-consuming and emotionally-tiring. I fear that many people just don’t have the mental and emotional strength, as well as the time, to get involved with mentoring.

Personally, I think that if the African American celebrities, especially the male celebs (athletes and entertainers), were willing to step up and speak publicly about the reasons for their success (usually staying in school, working hard, and facing lots of rejections before finally getting a break), it would do a lot of good and help many young African Americans to stick with their decisions to finish school and pursue a career in which they can be pretty much assured of gainful employment.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The U.S. DOES offer everyone the opportunity to earn a living wage because everyone receives a free education from kindergarten through 12th grade.

The U.S does not offer everyone the same opportunity, there are people in India who do not get this same opportunity. God is the God of all creation, not just the God of America.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Meh, I’m going to be technical. The title of the thread was “What is a Just Wage?”, not “What is a Charitable Wage?”.

There will always be disabled people who cannot work. Is a just wage for them called charity?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I’m not sure that most people buying £1 lottery tickets are going to spend themselves into destitution. If they are, they have a serious problem, and I’d say most of the moral blame lies with that individual.

Scratch cards and lottery tickets are aimed at poor and desperate people who cannot afford to loose their £1 stake. Sadly I come into contact with them and they do not stop at buying one ticket.

I was comparing playing in a pro sports league to winning the lottery. When you consider the actual chances of someone making the NHL, that’s essentially what it is. These kids have made it big, but no one’s been harmed in the process. (Assuming fans are spending themselves into destitution $200 ticket at a time, but that’s on them to know what they can afford).

People are passionate about sport, big business knows this, and they keep pushing the prices up to see what the market will support. This is obscene and wrong, sportsmen are not worth the millions that they are paid.

but all those professions you mentioned, with the exception of farm workers, are generally making a lot more than a pittance.

Strange that we actually need farm workers in order to eat, and we pay them a pittance. We don’t need sportsmen in order to live, yet they are paid a fortune.

Where will God find justice in all this?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

What’s the problem with hedge funds?

What do they contribute to society apart from greed?

 

[Peeps]

The United States is not responsible to offer everyone a free education or to pay workers in India or any other nation.

These nations are sovereign, independent nations who have the right to decide for themselves what kind of economy they’ll have. The U.S. can’t and shouldn’t tell company owners from other nations how much to pay their workers.

Certainly when the U.S. observes nations who are going down an unwise path economically, or who are mistreating their workers and other people, we should offer to help, and all too often, we do, much to the distress of those who believe we need to mind our own business and let others to do the same!

But the U.S. doesn’t rule the world. It’s not our call.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The U.S. DOES offer everyone the opportunity to earn a living wage because everyone receives a free education from kindergarten through 12th grade.

Blacks living in America have had to fight against racial segregation such as housing, medical care, education, employment, and transportation along racial lines. Justice has not been given to them freely and willingly.

When you only aim for a just wage for Americans, other people suffer injustice. Most of this thread seems more concerned for a just wage for people living in rich countries, and that is not justice.

 

[KMC]

So what is that just wage and how do you implement it?

Its easy to make high level moral statements, but difficult to produce details.

 

[HolySpirit1]

If you are looking for employment, go through the process of getting hired, and agree to the pay that is being offered , then congratulations you are getting a just wage that you agreed too. If at any point you feel like you deserve a raise, then you speak to who ever is holding the pay check and try to make your case as to why you feel you deserve a pay raise. If you don’t get the pay raise, and or you feel like there is no room for advancement then you find a new better paying job.

Pretty simple, dont even need the Catechism for that one . Considering we live in a free world , so unless you are a forced slave labor of some sort, you are getting a just wage.

less you want to talk about the slave labor of China, North Korea , and other communist / dictatorships that dog their people into the ground and what the free world and the church can do to stop it.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If you are looking for employment, go through the process of getting hired, and agree to the pay that is being offered , then congratulations you are getting a just wage that you agreed too

If you accept a wage of ten million a year because you are a professional footballer, this is not a just wage. Footballers do not contribute anything worth while to society, why should they be paid more than doctors and teachers?

About half the world population is living on less than $2.5 per day, I am sure they would love to earn $2.5 per hour, but hey won’t be offered that.

Pretty simple, dont even need the Catechism for that one . Considering we live in a free world , so unless you are a forced slave labor of some sort, you are getting a just wage.

less you want to talk about the slave labor of China

American billionaires exploit Chinese workers. Apple is a prime example.

 

[DarkLight]

If you are looking for employment, go through the process of getting hired, and agree to the pay that is being offered , then congratulations you are getting a just wage that you agreed too. If at any point you feel like you deserve a raise, then you speak to who ever is holding the pay check and try to make your case as to why you feel you deserve a pay raise. If you don’t get the pay raise, and or you feel like there is no room for advancement then you find a new better paying job.

If you go through the process of getting hired, but you’re told no one wants to hire you at a wage that’s enough to pay your bills, and in order to get a higher wage you have to spend money you don’t have (and can’t get without a higher wage) - is that still a just wage?

A lot of people are finding these “new, better paying jobs” are only for people who already have spare time and money to spend to get there. Not for people who are already just making ends meet by working as much as they can.

Edit to say: I really think people discount the time and energy aspect. We all know the thing about how time is money, yes? When you’re poor, you’re spending a lot of time to make up for the money you don’t have. That means even if you can take out loans, you may not have a lot of spare time to start taking classes or something like that. You can’t just keep adding more and more hours to your week in order to work your way up.

 

[AnnaTheCat]

According to most of the Scholastics it was almost always ‘the market rate’ (wage is just a price for labor-time).
I agree.
The problem of low-wages is not one of employers being stingy, it is of systemic flaws in the political and economic system that have deprived people of skills and training, and which make capital unavailable for alternative investments and artisans to compete with large scale capital (thus driving labor down). The fact is that most employers simply can not pay more and still compete, because their competition isn’t paying more. You have to solve the systemic problems (the worse-than-useless public education system, the power of monopoly capital to control laws, zoning, access to resources, etc.). Doing anything simply about ‘wages’ is going to create more problems than it ‘solves’, it’s putting a band-aid on a puss-filled gaping wound.

 

[Socrates92]

If you accept a wage of ten million a year because you are a professional footballer, this is not a just wage.

Who is being treated unjustly in that scenario?

Footballers do not contribute anything worth while to society,

That is your opinion. People showing up by the 10,000s at a couple hundred bucks a ticket beg to differ.

why should they be paid more than doctors and teachers?

Well, part of the reason is that Doctors for some reason don’t position their office in the centre of sports stadiums, and attract 10,000s of people willing to pay big money to watch them examine their patients.

Their is no inherent injustice in this. You can’t even argue this based on the church’s teaching. The teaching on the Just Wage, although poorly defined in my opinion, has always focussed on making sure that the labourer is paid enough. That is the case for all three of these professions.

 

[DarkLight]

I tend to agree with you here.

I also think the fundamental shift to a global, industrial economy makes a lot of changes. I think that’s part of the issue with our modern welfare system also.

When we were concentrated in smaller communities, it was a lot easier to judge who could and could not work, and to find accommodations for those who had the capability to work but no job to do. It also meant a lot of your production was local and found its way back into the community. If you needed shoes, you bought from the local cobbler.

Globalization increases the concentration of wealth. 1 man owning a giant factory can make thousands of shoes. If the company does well, he gets more money, but the workers don’t get paid more. And because the industrial setup makes things so much more cheaply, an individual can’t really compete unless he too has the money to buy a factory.