What Is a Just Wage?

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Well, in a way, that’s what all forms of price discrimination are. (Possible exception being military discounts - that’s just a CSR marketing thing) It’s not exactly correlated with income; but certain populations as a group will have lower or higher incomes than other populations as a group. The various group classifications (students, kids, elders etc.) are basically a proxy for expected income/ability to pay. It’s much easier to determine if someone is a student or elder than to collect data on every customer’s paycheque.
 
But when there’s an enormous wage gap between the bosses and the employees, yeah, I do see a problem with that.
Ok, can you elaborate on why? Do you grant my previous points about the secondary effects of arbitrary (not economically justified) wage increases?
 
Catholic employers following Church teaching would then need to factor that in as a business expense.

If you can’t afford to pay an employee a wage based on their needs and contributions, you can’t afford to run your business - at least not with the extra help.
Out of curiosity, have you ever ran or owned a business?
 
Nobody who works hard should have to struggle to pay rent or put groceries on the table. Nobody. That is the essence of CCC 2434.
I would disagree. CCC 2434 is really about balance. Balancing the needs of the worker with the state of the business and the contributions of the employee.

There are some businesses that just cannot do what you want. Your choice is to have them go out of business or pay what they can. In a perfect world, yes, all business would pay enough for a family of 4 to be supported, but that is not reality.
 
That’s a pretty broad statement. Perhaps you have in mind large corporations? In 2014, approximately 89% of all businesses employed less than 20 people. Fact is many of those businesses can’t run on paying wages so that a 40 year old can support his family, but instead could pay for a younger person without large expenses. If you want to force the business to pay wages the business can’t support, then you get the pleasure of adding more people to the welfare roles.
Let’s clarify: there are going to be some jobs that pay what it takes to get by, but little or nothing more than that. This is one of the reasons I think that universal health care is a reasonable idea. We aren’t going to allow people to rot on the street without medical care in a country as wealthy as ours, but that doesn’t mean that every worthwhile business can afford to pay for healthcare for all of its workers. A just wage does not mean that people in low-paying jobs aren’t going to go without a lot of things that people think they need but that people got by without for most of human history.
No, I mean that if you’re working a job that requires a hard day’s work and showing up every day, you shouldn’t have to live with your parents. You might have to limit your family size. We as a society might have to help you out (while you work).
If we want to talk about adding more people to the welfare rolls, though, we can just keep talking about hard work done for a worthwhile but unglamorous purpose but that doesn’t pay a lot as a “dead end job” that is somehow beneath people of dignity to do. For most of human history, most people were in “dead end jobs.” The Church’s view of labor is that every job ought to have dignity and no one who is an honest day laborer ought to have to live on starvation wages or be talked about as if he were a second-class citizen because he isn’t in a position to be storing up wealth.
I’d like to know, by the way, how many minimum-wage jobs are offered by the large corporations rather than the people who work elbow-to-elbow with their employees. When it comes to knowing what the highest-paid make compared to the lowest-paid, I think we know where the enormous and shocking wage disparities come from. It is the people who employ huge numbers of workers whom they never meet and don’t even have to think about as persons with lives as full and as meaningful as their own, people who struggle to meet daily needs while those at the top grasp for more wealth to pile onto wealth that goes far beyond anything remotely like a “need.”


This is the worst-case scenario: “Ron Johnson, the disgraced outgoing CEO of JC Penney, made an astonishing 1,795-times the average wage and benefits of his department store workers…”
Nobody needs to make 1800 times what their employees make. Nobody does. If he made 1800 times a good wage, OK. But if he’s making 1800 times the wages of people who are paid less than a living salary, not so much. There is something wrong with that.
 
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And yes, I would agree that CEO’s (and a very small handful of other key employees) make way too much as a ration to the average salary.
What does “too much” mean? Too much with respect to what? If their income/bonus/profits are connected to production, does this mean that the company is producing too much? Is production past a certain point evil?
(Enter a philosophical discussion about materialism, consumerism, and what the Catholic idea of stewardship means).

I personally think that saying that any remuneration, if and of itself, is “too much” is absurd. As you stated, there is essentially no negative effect on the workers from the massive income of the big-wigs, so the argument seems purely to be against how well the big-wig is doing himself. To me this just sounds like an argument based on envy.
 
What does “too much” mean? Too much with respect to what? If their income/bonus/profits are connected to production, does this mean that the company is producing too much? Is production past a certain point evil?
If the CEOs make large enough dividends for their stockholders, the stockholders do not care whether the employees are making enough to live. The companies are run purely for the interest of the capital investors and leave the people who actually do the work to put the product in the marketplace with as little of the return on their labor as possible.
Greed: that is what “too much” means. When a company goes public, it takes a great deal of integrity in the executives of the company to keep the compensation of workers safe from the greed of those in the organization with the power to claim the lion’s share of the profits for the investors and the executives.
 
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Socrates92:
What does “too much” mean? Too much with respect to what? If their income/bonus/profits are connected to production, does this mean that the company is producing too much? Is production past a certain point evil?
If the CEOs make large enough dividends for their stockholders, the stockholders do not care whether the employees are making enough to live. The companies are run purely for the interest of the capital investors and leave the people who actually do the work to put the product in the marketplace with as little of the return on their labor as possible.
Greed: that is what “too much” means. When a company goes public, it takes a great deal of integrity in the executives of the company to keep the compensation of workers safe from the greed of those in the organization with the power to claim the lion’s share of the profits for the investors and the executives.
How do you legislate against greed? Why not this: I buy at Costco, which pays its employees pretty well. I don’t shop at Sam’s Club. I vote with my dollar.
 
How do you legislate against greed? Why not this: I buy at Costco, which pays its employees pretty well. I don’t shop at Sam’s Club. I vote with my dollar.
Yes, I agree that in our times justice-minded buyers have to pay attention to what companies they buy from. The companies do pay attention. Even if they don’t, it is better to patronize the companies that pay their workers more fairly.
I don’t remember saying anything about legislation. I thought the conversation was about justice. Not everything that serves justice or even eternal life can be achieved via legislation. Sometimes it can, but it is a huge mistake to imagine that the solution to every injustice is to write a law.
 
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Our society created the conditions that allow this to happen and, while it would be wonderful to pay everyone a livable wage, attempting to do so would likely result in their entire establishment being closed down.

If we want to fix the problem, we need to move beyond the demand for cheap and fast and be willing to collectively only support those places which pay their employees well.
You do realize that this approach only looks at one side of the coin? The flipside of cheap wages is cheap products. Companies are not economically able to force someone to work for less than he/she agrees to work. That person always has the legal right to seek work elsewhere. If someone is capable of producing drastically more value than his wage indicates, he can tie his employer’s hands and demand more, or leave for higher pay elsewhere.
The effect of trying to increase wages divorced from this increased economic value is simply to raise the cost of goods, which decreases what said wages can buy, thereby decreasing the “real wages”.

I think the key fallacy here, is that everyone tends to think of wages as the end product of labour. They aren’t. Wages/money are simply a medium of exchange. The end product is the stuff that these wages buy. How much stuff can be bought is based on how efficient the means of production are. Simply looking at a providing a “living wage” is meaningless unless one also looks at how this wage will be supported by an equivalent level of production.

This is where I get really controversial… The level of production that can be sustained is directly correlated with how efficient the producer (ie: corporation) is. Efficiency refers to maximizing output per (name removed by moderator)ut. The drive for efficiency puts downward pressure on both wages and prices. Meanwhile, the actual output represented by these wages/prices tends to increase.

Artificially increasing wages without connecting it to some corresponding production increase mitigates the incentives to increased efficiency. (No need to produce more to get a pay raise) Given that prices are tied with wages, the economy adjusts, and the new $15/hr becomes the old $10/hr. Once you consider the lost productivity, workers actually end up worse off in the long run than if they had simply been paid what they were worth.

So, in short, it is precisely this “demand for cheap and fast” (aka efficiency) that increases the living standands of the working poor over time.
 
You have to think of the unseen secondary effects.

What is the flipside of higher wages? - Higher prices
Who pays these higher prices? - people who spend their wages.
How does basic supply/demand for labour play in?
  • companies that pay higher wages can afford to hire fewer people
  • these companies likewise charge higher prices
  • those lucky to work for these companies win; those who work for others lose because of higher prices
 
Greed is an internal disposition, just like envy. It does not correspond de-facto with making a certain dollar amount.
 
I don’t remember saying anything about legislation. I thought the conversation was about justice. Not everything that serves justice or even eternal life can be achieved via legislation. Sometimes it can, but it is a huge mistake to imagine that the solution to every injustice is to write a law.
I was (incorrectly) assuming the next logical step to your point. There are many people who will want to enforce their views of wages / business via legislation. I agree that not all injustices can be solved with legislation.
 
High turnover in staff stems largely from the low pay. For actors or other artists who live gig-to-gig, temp work is a wonderful option.

I appreciate all of the discussions in this thread about cost of living, business struggles, and unique employment situations like acting. But at the end of the day, CCC 2434 provides no excuses for not paying a just wage.
 
I think that there are more choices than that, sweeping policy changes that need to be made. I’m very, very supportive of small businesses. I can identify at least two major policy changes that have to occur in order to prop up small businesses and, yes, leave them the funds to hire the staff they need and build just wages into their operating expenses.

First, I don’t care how you propose it happens - be it through socialized medicine, single-payer health care, or an open insurance market - but health care MUST detach itself from employers. Our current “system,” if you can call it that, sort of came together by accidental mish-mash after WWII. It’s an experiment that failed. The question of how to cover myself and my family if I open a business, as well as how to cover full-time employees, stifles the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great. The egregiously and indisputably over-inflated rates that Americans pay for insurance, doctors, and hospitals also deplete businesses of those vital funds that it takes to stay afloat.

Second, when it comes to taxes, small businesses shouldn’t have to pick up the slack of larger corporations that refuse to pay their share. It’s slow-moving, butI’m optimistic that it will happen in my state.

I will also agree with some conservatives that there are regulations and fees on small businesses that have gotten out of hand. I go out of my way to get in the car or on my bike to go to the brick-and-mortars and avoid the A-word-dot-com because I truly adhere to the notion that small business is the backbone of our economy. Some things just have to change so that businesses can operate as our faith commands us to do.
 
First, I don’t care how you propose it happens - be it through socialized medicine, single-payer health care, or an open insurance market - but health care MUST detach itself from employers. Our current “system,” if you can call it that, sort of came together by accidental mish-mash after WWII. It’s an experiment that failed. The question of how to cover myself and my family if I open a business, as well as how to cover full-time employees, stifles the entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great. The egregiously and indisputably over-inflated rates that Americans pay for insurance, doctors, and hospitals also deplete businesses of those vital funds that it takes to stay afloat.
I do agree with this.

But part of the reason we pay so much for MDs and providers in general is the cost of liability insurance/malpractice insurance. No, that’s not an excuse, it’s a fact. The overhead for a provider is incredibly high - even at conglomerates like Kaiser and Duke.

The other issue is the cost of covering the uninsured (which includes people deliberately evading the Obamacare mandate who’d rather pay a penalty than pay up for coverage they can afford - and they are out there, believe me), and prior to that included the people who felt they were so healthy they didn’t need health insurance - and then they ended up in the trauma bay because some idiot t-boned them at an intersection. (I don’t blame folks who cannot afford coverage - if you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it, and that’s a different story, but the people I mention are real.) We (the insured) actually pay those bills in the form of higher costs. It’s a huge problem.

And then there is the other piece: the insurance business is just that - a business in the hands of private entities. It cracks me up when people say “I don’t want the government telling me what I can and can’t have” - and they don’t educate themselves (and yes, I say ‘educate themselves’) enough to realize that Blue Cross, United, Kaiser, and all the other insurers are already doing that. It’s amazing to see how many people just don’t read the fine print on their policies.

Don’t misread me - none of this excuses the price gouging that I know goes on in the civilian sector. There’s a problem there as well. I guess I’m saying it’s a multifaceted issue.

You are SOOOOOOo correct when you say we need to unhook coverage from employment. It was part of what drove me back to active duty: I used to walk the floors of Duke Medical Center and think, what do I do if I get sick? What do I do if I can’t work? And no, the answer isn’t COBRA (and I know you know that).
 
Greed is an internal disposition, just like envy. It does not correspond de-facto with making a certain dollar amount.
It is true that none of us can judge the disposition of the soul of another person. We can say, however, that accepting 1800 times as much as the workers you oversee because your job is to save their jobs and you don’t do it, there is something wrong with that: with the action, with the situation, regardless of what “internal disposition” might mitigate the personal culpability for it. Giving administrators handsome rewards for actually doing their jobs in a way that increases or preserves company earnings while safeguarding the wages of the workers isn’t inherently unfair. Paying people upfront to be as stingy as humanly possible with the employees is something else again.
The letter of James warned about just this kind of thing:
Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending miseries. Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten, your gold and silver have corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire. You have stored up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and pleasure; you have fattened your hearts for the day of slaughter.
James 5:1-5

Harvesting fields by hand is what is now referred to as a “dead end job.” Giving work a demeaning name does not excuse underpaying the harvesters.
 
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I don’t disagree, I’m only musing on the circumstances that lead to our current situation.
 
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