What is a Mormon?

[Serap]

JeanMichel, it is your dreamy-eyed view of Mormonism that doesn’t align to what Mormons teach. I was raised in Mormonism, by very Mormon parents. I KNOW what Mormons teach.

Certainly, you do not think that a god defined as a man, the same as any other man, who progressed to godhood, is one among many gods, lives on a planet near a distant star, possibly copulated with Mary to conceive Jesus and possibly has multiple wives in heaven, is the same One True GOD of Christianity?

Yes, I know you have issues with religion. You’ve said that often.

I am not besmirching Mormonism. I tell it exactly as their church has taught and is believed. I am not going to participate in their ruse to appear Christian.

Charity guys…pleez? pretty pleez?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Charity guys…pleez? pretty pleez?

I didn’t say anything uncharitable.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

They baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but their meaning behind those words is very different than that of any Christian (not just Catholic). They reject the Holy Trinity. They reject the nature of God as spirit.

No, we reject that God the Father is only spirit (as well as the concept that ‘spirit’ is immaterial). We believe that that Father (and Jesus Christ) are both spirit and embodied.

They reject Jesus as God Incarnate, but rather view Him as the same as themselves, just a level up on the way to progressing to godhood.

Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, regarded as Jehovah/Yahweh, prior to His incarnation. Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, a member of the Godhead, united in purpose and love with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Further, their intent when they baptize is not the same as the Catholic Church. Christians baptize with the intent to bring a person into the ONE Body of Christ. Mormons baptize with the intent to remove people from the ONE Body of Christ, and into their own, insular, idea of what baptism means.

This of course is your distortion of what we teach, since we nowhere intend baptism to remove people from the Body of Christ. We believe that baptism brings one into the Kingdom of God, the Body of Christ. We believe that baptism must be done by those holding the priesthood of God, and since we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the “one true Church”, only our Church has this authority.

Their different view on the Eucharist doesn’t have anything to do with why the Catholic Church views them as not Christian. Protestants who have the same view as Mormons (from which they got their view) are considered Christian. We don’t baptize a baptized Lutheran, because they are already baptized a Christian. We do baptize a baptized Mormon.

And we baptize all non-Latter-day Saints.

Interestingly (side note), the Eastern Orthodox maintain a kind of “middle-way” between the two views. They frequently say that they know where God’s grace is, but not don’t say where it is not. So, they know that they have valid sacraments, yet they don’t say whether another Church does or doesn’t. Instead, they believe that economia is applied when they chrismate a convert, which “makes up” for anything deficient in the previous baptism. Also, in cases of “emergency baptism”, they only allow baptized persons to perform the emergency baptism, while the Roman Catholic church (in contrast to the Eastern Catholic particular churches and the Orthodox Church) allows anyone, including atheists and pagans, to emergency baptize. Clearly not all traditional Christians (including other ancient churches such as the Orthodox) agree with the Latin Catholic view of baptism, which even allows atheists and pagans to baptize in emergencies (the Orthodox do not allow that in contrast).

 

[Serap]

JeanMichel, it is your dreamy-eyed view of Mormonism that doesn’t align to what Mormons teach. I was raised in Mormonism, by very Mormon parents. I KNOW what Mormons teach.

Certainly, you do not think that a god defined as a man, the same as any other man, who progressed to godhood, is one among many gods, lives on a planet near a distant star, possibly copulated with Mary to conceive Jesus and possibly has multiple wives in heaven, is the same One True GOD of Christianity?

Yes, I know you have issues with religion. You’ve said that often.

I am not besmirching Mormonism. I tell it exactly as their church has taught and is believed. I am not going to participate in their ruse to appear Christian.

It’s interesting b/c 100’s of years ago (or more), Catholics would have accused Mormons of being heretics and many would have been killed in crusades.

We have come a long way since then. Church no longer rules the state.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s interesting b/c 100’s of years ago (or more), Catholics would have accused Mormons of being heretics and many would have been killed in crusades.

We have come a long way since then. Church no longer rules the state.

lol.

 

[Stavros]

I was baptized Mormon on my 8th birthday, and when I entered the Catholic church, I had to be re-baptized.

The reason that an LDS baptism is not considered valid is because of the vastly different perception of what the LDS consider to be “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and what most Christians teach as the Trinitarian God. While the terminology is the same, the essence of what the words mean is different enough that Catholic leadership feels that the Mormon baptism is not valid.

The LDS ceremony is almost identical to many Catholic and Protestant baptisms. The wording is performed as so (from LDS.org):

**Baptism **
The ordinance of baptism is performed only by a worthy priest or Melchizedek Priesthood holder under the direction of the presiding authority. The priesthood holder:

1. Stands in the water with the person to be baptized.

1. (For convenience and safety) holds the person’s right wrist with his left hand; the person being baptized holds the priesthood holder’s left wrist with his or her left hand.

1. Raises his right arm to the square.

1. States the person’s full name and says, “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen” (D&C 20:73).

1. Has the person hold his or her nose with the right hand (for convenience); then the priesthood holder places his right hand high on the person’s back and immerses the person completely, including the person’s clothing.

1. Helps the person come up out of the water.

Each baptism must be witnessed by two priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders, who make sure it is performed properly. The baptism must be repeated if the prayer was not stated accurately or if part of the body or clothing of the person being baptized was not immersed completely.

**Confirmation **
A person receives the ordinance of confirmation after he or she has been baptized (see D&C 20:41). Under the direction of the bishopric or branch presidency, one or more Melchizedek Priesthood holders may participate in this ordinance. They place their hands lightly on the person’s head. Then the person who performs the ordinance:

1. States the person’s full name.

1. States that the ordinance is performed by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

1. Confirms the person a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1. Bestows the gift of the Holy Ghost by saying, “Receive the Holy Ghost.”

1. Gives a priesthood blessing as the Spirit directs.

1. Closes in the name of Jesus Christ.

Looking at the official wording of who can do the baptisms, and how they are done, I believe it’s two main reasons that the baptism is not considered valid:

1. 
   *]The ceremony is done with the authority of the LDS Melchizedek Priesthood, which the Catholic church does not recognize as a valid seccesion of priesthood authority.
   *]The ceremony is done in the name of the “Father, Son and Holy Ghost”; however, the essence of God and Christ is radically different from the Nicene Creed. In the LDS religion, God was once man, and Jesus, Satan, and all spirits were created at the same time. Jesus was the first of God’s spirits, and is a spiritual brother to you and I, as is Satan. According to the LDS religion, God progressed up a spiritual ladder, and has a physical body, and if an LDS member adheres to the Plan of Salvation, at their resurrection they too will become like God, and have worlds of their own where their spirit children will have the same opportunity as God, and us.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

It’s interesting b/c 100’s of years ago (or more), Catholics would have accused Mormons of being heretics and many would have been killed in crusades.

 

[Serap]

I was baptized Mormon on my 8th birthday, and when I entered the Catholic church, I had to be re-baptized.

The reason that an LDS baptism is not considered valid is because of the vastly different perception of what the LDS consider to be “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and what most Christians teach as the Trinitarian God. While the terminology is the same, the essence of what the words mean is different enough that Catholic leadership feels that the Mormon baptism is not valid.

The LDS ceremony is almost identical to many Catholic and Protestant baptisms. The wording is performed as so (from LDS.org):

Looking at the official wording of who can do the baptisms, and how they are done, I believe it’s two main reasons that the baptism is not considered valid:

1. 
   *]The ceremony is done with the authority of the LDS Melchizedek Priesthood, which the Catholic church does not recognize as a valid seccesion of priesthood authority.
   *]The ceremony is done in the name of the “Father, Son and Holy Ghost”; however, the essence of God and Christ is radically different from the Nicene Creed. In the LDS religion, God was once man, and Jesus, Satan, and all spirits were created at the same time. Jesus was the first of God’s spirits, and is a spiritual brother to you and I, as is Satan. According to the LDS religion, God progressed up a spiritual ladder, and has a physical body, and if an LDS member adheres to the Plan of Salvation, at their resurrection they too will become like God, and have worlds of their own where their spirit children will have the same opportunity as God, and us.

1. 
   wow! This is so interesting!!! It’s such a unique concept.

 

[Serap]

Yes, it is terrible. I meant this as a statement to show that we have become better as humans.

 

[Serap]

I was baptized Mormon on my 8th birthday, and when I entered the Catholic church, I had to be re-baptized.

The reason that an LDS baptism is not considered valid is because of the vastly different perception of what the LDS consider to be “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and what most Christians teach as the Trinitarian God. While the terminology is the same, the essence of what the words mean is different enough that Catholic leadership feels that the Mormon baptism is not valid.

The LDS ceremony is almost identical to many Catholic and Protestant baptisms. The wording is performed as so (from LDS.org):

Looking at the official wording of who can do the baptisms, and how they are done, I believe it’s two main reasons that the baptism is not considered valid:

1. 
   *]The ceremony is done with the authority of the LDS Melchizedek Priesthood, which the Catholic church does not recognize as a valid seccesion of priesthood authority.
   *]The ceremony is done in the name of the “Father, Son and Holy Ghost”; however, the essence of God and Christ is radically different from the Nicene Creed. In the LDS religion, God was once man, and Jesus, Satan, and all spirits were created at the same time. Jesus was the first of God’s spirits, and is a spiritual brother to you and I, as is Satan. According to the LDS religion, God progressed up a spiritual ladder, and has a physical body, and if an LDS member adheres to the Plan of Salvation, at their resurrection they too will become like God, and have worlds of their own where their spirit children will have the same opportunity as God, and us.

1. 
   why did you become Catholic?

 

[Stavros]

why did you become Catholic?

Well, it was kind of a two-step process. Leaving the LDS church was Step 1. Long story short, to believe in the LDS religion, you have to believe that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, and that he truly was visited by angels and God and Christ, and that his authority was valid. After prayer and study, I realized that it was not true, and Joseph Smith was not who he said he was.

I was agnostic for a few years, and then was invited to a friend’s Catholic wedding. During the Eucharistic prayers, I realized that I was drawn to the Eucharist, and had this burning desire to learn more about the Catholic church. And more than anything, I just wanted to get down on my knees and pray in the presence of the tabernacle in adoration. Now, for a non-Catholic, that was a pretty weird sensation. I just realized that if I wanted, I could go to a church like this every single day and get to witness that, and get to pray. It’s hard to really put into words.

I started RCIA the next Sunday, and was lucky enough to join just before the first rites of the catechumens before Advent. I was baptized that Easter

To this day, my favorite part of going to church is eucharistic adoration and devotion. It’s so simple, and yet it’s so profound. In my 20’s, I faithfully participated in LDS temple ceremonies for the living and the dead (endowments, washing and anointing, wedding, and baptism). I spent many hours praying for comfort and guidance in the Celestial Room, the most sacred space of any temple. But I never felt the feeling there that I feel every time I kneel in front of the tabernacle and talk to God.

As a Mormon, I often stood up in Fast and Testimony meeting testifying that I knew that the church was true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. Now, as a Catholic, I don’t necessarily have that blind faith. But I know that on my knees, in the church, I can talk to God. I can see prayers answered. I feel like I am where I need to be, and that gives me comfort.

Do I think that Mormon prayers are answered? I’m sure they are. But for me, being Catholic is a much richer and more rewarding spritual experience than being Mormon ever was. In the Mormon church, I constantly worried that I wasn’t doing enough. I was worried more about my status with God than my relationship with Him. But with being Catholic, I can see the simple graces I receive with every devotion, every prayer, every time I receive the Eucharist worthily.

 

[TheExorcist]

Well, it was kind of a two-step process. Leaving the LDS church was Step 1. Long story short, to believe in the LDS religion, you have to believe that Joseph Smith was who he said he was, and that he truly was visited by angels and God and Christ, and that his authority was valid. After prayer and study, I realized that it was not true, and Joseph Smith was not who he said he was.

I was agnostic for a few years, and then was invited to a friend’s Catholic wedding. During the Eucharistic prayers, I realized that I was drawn to the Eucharist, and had this burning desire to learn more about the Catholic church. And more than anything, I just wanted to get down on my knees and pray in the presence of the tabernacle in adoration. Now, for a non-Catholic, that was a pretty weird sensation. I just realized that if I wanted, I could go to a church like this every single day and get to witness that, and get to pray. It’s hard to really put into words.

I started RCIA the next Sunday, and was lucky enough to join just before the first rites of the catechumens before Advent. I was baptized that Easter

To this day, my favorite part of going to church is eucharistic adoration and devotion. It’s so simple, and yet it’s so profound. In my 20’s, I faithfully participated in LDS temple ceremonies for the living and the dead (endowments, washing and anointing, wedding, and baptism). I spent many hours praying for comfort and guidance in the Celestial Room, the most sacred space of any temple. But I never felt the feeling there that I feel every time I kneel in front of the tabernacle and talk to God.

As a Mormon, I often stood up in Fast and Testimony meeting testifying that I knew that the church was true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. Now, as a Catholic, I don’t necessarily have that blind faith. But I know that on my knees, in the church, I can talk to God. I can see prayers answered. I feel like I am where I need to be, and that gives me comfort.

Do I think that Mormon prayers are answered? I’m sure they are. But for me, being Catholic is a much richer and more rewarding spritual experience than being Mormon ever was. In the Mormon church, I constantly worried that I wasn’t doing enough. I was worried more about my status with God than my relationship with Him. But with being Catholic, I can see the simple graces I receive with every devotion, every prayer, every time I receive the Eucharist worthily.

Your thoughts and feelings are a lot of the reason I want to join the Catholic church! I was transferred for work down to Salt Lake City and that was the first time I attempted to leave the church. I began attending an Episcopal parish and felt the liturgy was extremely beautiful and moving. However my wIfe would absolutely NOT allow me to leave the church. So I stay to keep family unity. I’m no longer anywhere close to a TBM.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, it is terrible. I meant this as a statement to show that we have become better as humans.

Could have least attempted historical accuracy.

Feeding Mormon paranoia is kind of funny though.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Your thoughts and feelings are a lot of the reason I want to join the Catholic church! I was transferred for work down to Salt Lake City and that was the first time I attempted to leave the church. I began attending an Episcopal parish and felt the liturgy was extremely beautiful and moving. However my wIfe would absolutely NOT allow me to leave the church. So I stay to keep family unity. I’m no longer anywhere close to a TBM.

hi, I’m in the land of zion too.

What does the wifey think of the 11th article of faith?

 

[Serap]

Could have least attempted historical accuracy.

Feeding Mormon paranoia is kind of funny though.

there are many well documented crusades. just go on line and see. it’s terrible and similar to what is now still happening with some religious groups.

 

[RebeccaJ]

there are many well documented crusades. just go on line and see. it’s terrible and similar to what is now still happening with some religious groups.

Are some wars just? Not all crusades are created equally.

I think Mormons would be more like the pagans of Europe, who were Christianized, not killed.

I have to wonder why you think they would have been killed?

 

[Serap]

Could have least attempted historical accuracy.

Feeding Mormon paranoia is kind of funny though.

I want to say that this was not meant to feed a Mormon paranoia and if I offended any Mormons on this thread, I am truly sorry. I am not here to offend. I am here to learn about the Mormon faith as (up until now), I have known very little about it.

 

[Serap]

Are some wars just? Not all crusades are created equally.

I think Mormons would be more like the pagans of Europe, who were Christianized, not killed.

I have to wonder why you think they would have been killed?

Catholics did murder many non Catholics historically. If you wish to be ignorant to it, then that is your choice.

Pagans also murdered many early Christians. They are both terrible facts in our history.

I am proud to be a Catholic, but not proud of some of her history.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Disingenuous? Do they are do they not believe every statement in the Apostle’s Creed other than the one statement about the Catholic faith?

The LDS have never changed their teaching on the Christian Creeds. I’ve never seen an LDS state that the Creeds are not an abomination nor profess their belief in any of them. They send 50,000+ missionaries out every year teaching people that the Christian Creeds are an abomination. So yes it is disingenuous to imply they hold to any of the Creeds.

 

[Serap]

The LDS have never changed their teaching on the Christian Creeds. I’ve never seen an LDS state that the Creeds are not an abomination nor profess their belief in any of them. They send 50,000+ missionaries out every year teaching people that the Christian Creeds are an abomination. So yes it is disingenuous to imply they hold to any of the Creeds.

So Mormons think that any other Christian church is an abomination?