What is a third order?

[lak611]

Now I am confused. The Catholic high school that I attended was run by nuns. They were called the Sisters of St. Joseph of the Third Order of St. Francis. So how could they be a third order if they were vowed religious women who took vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience?

 

[vince2paul]

Hm… when I was explaining about third order, a friend asked me, “what is the benefit of joining third order?”

And for vow of obedience, who is the superior?

Hm… am I hijacking the thread?

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

Hm… when I was explaining about third order, a friend asked me, “what is the benefit of joining third order?”

And for vow of obedience, who is the superior?

Hm… am I hijacking the thread?

Here is a quote by the user Della:

Benifits: The difference is that lay order members make promises of obedience to do the things the order prescribes for them and obedience to their superiors. Also, one receives all the spiritual benefits of the order, their prayers, etc. There are also confraternities lay people can join that do not require making such promises, but which are still under the guidance and authority of the order.

Here is a quote by the user Dorothy:

Chaste: Chastity according to one’s state in life is not necessarily celibacy. Third Orders are for the laity, both married and single.
For a married person it means that he/she is faithful to their spouse, and obeys all the moral directives of the Church.

As far as vows of the third order of Carmelite I do believe you make a promise rather than vow. i am not positive but I think that means you promise obedience. I am guessing if you feel devoted to the same charism and devotions as the Carmelite (aside bieng a laymen) then this wont be a problem. So case in bieng I do not think you have a Superior watching over you except for the holy trinity? I do know that you have to attend meetings and I believe there is a few steps to take as well. Once you are in a third order there is no removing yourself or changing from one Order such as the Carmelites to another as lets say the franciscan. Its for life from what I take. Even if you move and there is no other Carmelite Community there it is encouraged for you to start one.

I hope that information helps. I believe I understand now how this works now. If I am wrong I hope I am lucky to be corrected.

 

[Dorothy]

Now I am confused. The Catholic high school that I attended was run by nuns. They were called the Sisters of St. Joseph of the Third Order of St. Francis. So how could they be a third order if they were vowed religious women who took vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience?

Yes, in this particular instance it sounds confusing. But, that particular order was not for lay people living in the world.

 

[Dorothy]

OOoh haha

So if you joined this third order then you could still get married in the future and have children. Thank you for the response

Yes!..you are welcome.

 

[Veritas41]

This is one of the little-known “secrets” about Franciscan spirituality – it has both an active and a contemplative dimension – so Franciscans are definitely encouraged to spend some time in contemplation.

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Aren’t the Capuchin Franciscans more on the contemplative side? Seems like I remember reading or hearing that somewhere

 

[Marauder]

Now I am confused. The Catholic high school that I attended was run by nuns. They were called the Sisters of St. Joseph of the Third Order of St. Francis. So how could they be a third order if they were vowed religious women who took vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience?

I was confused by this when I started researching Franciscan Third Orders, but know that I am starting the process of entering SFO I have a clearer picture of the situation.

Third Order Franciscans and Secular Franciscans are not the same thing. I am still trying to get a good history of all the details of the differences but the main difference is that Third Order Franciscans TEND to be priests and nuns that may live in a community but they tend to live a more secular existance then the First Order or Second Order Franciscans.

SFO is primarily made up of lay people that wish to follow Franciscan spirituality. Priests/deacons/bishops, etc. that aren’t part of a religious orders can be members of SFO.

Both Third Order Franciscans and SFO trace their history back to the Third Order created by Saint Francis himself.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

Yes, in this particular instance it sounds confusing. But, that particular order was not for lay people living in the world.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

hahah ok i get it now.

 

[plato3]

This is confusing, so they have given names for each.

Religious= Third Order Regular
lay people+parish priests and deacons=Third Order Secular

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

This is confusing, so they have given names for each.

Religious= Third Order Regular
lay people+parish priests and deacons=Third Order Secular

Lol man I know what you mean although I think i understand a lil better now. I wish we learned about these kinda things in Catholic schools when we I was a kid. Just like we learned about priests fathers brothers nuns sisters deacons ect ect

I think the priests are not attached to any order when they are ordained but can chose to be a third order secular if felt drawn to there way. If he wanted to go all the way then possibly should of been a friar or something. That is the impression i got anyways haha dont quote me though

 

[Marauder]

This is confusing, so they have given names for each.

Religious= Third Order Regular
lay people+parish priests and deacons=Third Order Secular

Actually that’s it in a nutshell. I have been doing research into why this is and have a good idea but I am not so sure about my resources. What it sounds like is that original Third Order Regular and SFO where the same organization but as with numerous organizations run by men differences appeared in the way people thought things should be run and two major branches of Third Order Franciscans developed over time, eventually there was a fight over which organization could be called “Third Order”. The one branch became Third Order Regulars and the other branch became SFO.

This is a very simplified because if you want to get real complicated there are non-Catholic Francican and SFO groups.

Basically if you want to live in a religious community where you follow Franciscan spirituality profess vows but don’t want to become a Friar then you would join TOR.

If you are a lay person or a diocesan priest/deacon and want to follow Franciscan spirituality and profess vows then you would join SFO.

 

[Marauder]

I think the priests are not attached to any order when they are ordained but can chose to be a third order secular if felt drawn to there way. If he wanted to go all the way then possibly should of been a friar or something. That is the impression i got anyways haha dont quote me though

Actually the way it works for diocesan priests is that they usually (key being usually) are not associated with a religious order. If after being ordained they want to join a secular order, they can. Some priests may be in a secular order before they enter the priesthood. If they want to join a religious 1st order after becoming a priest they would need permission of their bishop.

Religious order priests usually join a religious order as a novitiate and then if they want to eventually become a deacon or priest.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

Actually the way it works for diocesan priests is that they usually (key being usually) are not associated with a religious order. If after being ordained they want to join a secular order, they can. Some priests may be in a secular order before they enter the priesthood. If they want to join a religious 1st order after becoming a priest they would need permission of their bishop.

Religious order priests usually join a religious order as a novitiate and then if they want to eventually become a deacon or priest.

OOooh ok haha Well, Im sure glad I started this thread.
Does that build a diffrent relation then with those who are in the higher order the friars and nuns and such? Like do you get adressed diffrent from others in your same order. As a laymen i wouldnt think you would.

 

[Marauder]

OOooh ok haha Well, Im sure glad I started this thread.
Does that build a diffrent relation then with those who are in the higher order the friars and nuns and such? Like do you get adressed diffrent from others in your same order. As a laymen i wouldnt think you would.

This can vary community to community but officially within the Franciscan world everyone calls each other brother or sister.

Everyone is considered equal. But some people due to necessity of having someone in charge may have a title. In SFO the person in charge of each fraternity has the title Minister. But you don’t call him/her Minister so and so when addressing them.

If there is a priest present usually refer to him as Father so and so but if it is a OFM priest (1st Order) priest you can usually also call him Brother so and so. Since we meet at a monastary it is usually easier if you don’t know who a person is it is safer to call a OFM friar “brother” because you don’t know whether they are a priest or not.

St. Francis’ intent was that everyone would be equal but realized that every group needed someone to be in charge, but he specified that the person in charge would have to be willing to and act in service to the entire community. Not the other way around.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

This can vary community to community but officially within the Franciscan world everyone calls each other brother or sister.

Everyone is considered equal. But some people due to necessity of having someone in charge may have a title. In SFO the person in charge of each fraternity has the title Minister. But you don’t call him/her Minister so and so when addressing them.

If there is a priest present usually refer to him as Father so and so but if it is a OFM priest (1st Order) priest you can usually also call him Brother so and so. Since we meet at a monastary it is usually easier if you don’t know who a person is it is safer to call a OFM friar “brother” because you don’t know whether they are a priest or not.

St. Francis’ intent was that everyone would be equal but realized that every group needed someone to be in charge, but he specified that the person in charge would have to be willing to and act in service to the entire community. Not the other way around.

I see now although that would exclude the lay folk out side the order reffering you to a brother or sister. I remember in grade school there was this guy who was in seminary that was really funny that would come in and help out our class and he was reffered to as Brother (First name and last name) So all of us kids called him that as well.

 

[Marauder]

I see now although that would exclude the lay folk out side the order reffering you to a brother or sister. I remember in grade school there was this guy who was in seminary that was really funny that would come in and help out our class and he was reffered to as Brother (First name and last name) So all of us kids called him that as well.

Actually it doesn’t prohibit lay people outside the order calling people Brother. The idea is that the title Brother/Sister refers to anyone. People outside of the order can be called brothers and sisters just like those inside the order.

I went to a talk on Franciscan Spirituality given by an Episcopalian Bishop. He was amazed that when he took a course and stayed at a Catholic Franciscan monastary everyone called each other brother and everyone called him brother. He expected that people would treat him differently (even though he didn’t want to be treated differently) because he was a Bishop. He was treated the exact same way anyone was treated there, he even volunteered for garbage duty.

By the way, I am not an expert on this. I am not even a professed member of SFO yet, but I had similar questions as you a couple years ago and did a lot of research.

 

[Della]

Here is a quote by the user Della:

Benifits: The difference is that lay order members make promises of obedience to do the things the order prescribes for them and obedience to their superiors. Also, one receives all the spiritual benefits of the order, their prayers, etc. There are also confraternities lay people can join that do not require making such promises, but which are still under the guidance and authority of the order.

Here is a quote by the user Dorothy:

Chaste: Chastity according to one’s state in life is not necessarily celibacy. Third Orders are for the laity, both married and single.
For a married person it means that he/she is faithful to their spouse, and obeys all the moral directives of the Church.

As far as vows of the third order of Carmelite I do believe you make a promise rather than vow. i am not positive but I think that means you promise obedience. I am guessing if you feel devoted to the same charism and devotions as the Carmelite (aside bieng a laymen) then this wont be a problem. So case in bieng I do not think you have a Superior watching over you except for the holy trinity? I do know that you have to attend meetings and I believe there is a few steps to take as well. Once you are in a third order there is no removing yourself or changing from one Order such as the Carmelites to another as lets say the franciscan. Its for life from what I take. Even if you move and there is no other Carmelite Community there it is encouraged for you to start one.

I hope that information helps. I believe I understand now how this works now. If I am wrong I hope I am lucky to be corrected.

The superiors of the Lay Carmelite Order are those appointed by the Prior General to be delegates to the Lay Order Communities within his province. These delegates may be priests, brothers, or sisters.

A lay person may change orders but no one is allowed to be a member of two orders at a time. And a lay person can take vows but most don’t because a vow incurs sin if it broken.

 

[Della]

This is one of the little-known “secrets” about Franciscan spirituality – it has both an active and a contemplative dimension – so Franciscans are definitely encouraged to spend some time in contemplation.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Pace e Bene

I did not mean to imply that Franciscans are not encourged to enter into contemplation, only that, as I understand it and am willing to be corrected, that is not emphasized as much for Franciscans as it is for Carmelites.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

The superiors of the Lay Carmelite Order are those appointed by the Prior General to be delegates to the Lay Order Communities within his province. These delegates may be priests, brothers, or sisters.

A lay person may change orders but no one is allowed to be a member of two orders at a time. And a lay person can take vows but most don’t because a vow incurs sin if it broken.

I see I must read it wrong on one the carmelite websites.

Are you part of the order Della?