What is a third order?

[CarolAnnSFO]

So do people who are members of Secular Third Orders wear the habits of a monk? And i know this was touched on earlier but I am still slightly confused, but if one is part of a Third Order is he or she referred to as Br. ______ or Sr. ______ as part of their name?

Thanks!

In my Franciscan fraternity, we just use each other’s names. Technically, we could use “brother” or “sister”, but I’ve never seen anyone use those titles. I can put the letters “SFO” after my name.

We don’t wear robes, but we have a “habit”, which is a Tau Cross – usually made of wood, and hung from a cord with three knots in it. The knots stand for the three evangelical counsels – poverty, chastity, and obedience, which we live according to our state in life (may be different for a monk than for a layperson).

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[lak611]

We don’t wear robes, but we have a “habit”, which is a Tau Cross – usually made of wood, and hung from a cord with three knots in it. The knots stand for the three evangelical counsels – poverty, chastity, and obedience, which we live according to our state in life (may be different for a monk than for a layperson).

**Crazy Internet Junkies Society
**Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Pace e Bene

If a person joins the third order and is single, does it mean that she must remain single her entire life, like a nun? Or can the chastity be changed to allow for marriage later?

 

[Marauder]

If a person joins the third order and is single, does it mean that she must remain single her entire life, like a nun? Or can the chastity be changed to allow for marriage later?

Honestly the answer is it depends on the Third Order. Since different Third Orders have different rules and different expectations. Most Third/Secular Orders that I have researched only require chastity, not celibacy. If you decide to get married there is no problem. There may be issues however if you get married outside the norms of the Catholic church (i.e. marriage without annulment, etc.)

 

[Dorothy]

If a person joins the third order and is single, does it mean that she must remain single her entire life, like a nun? Or can the chastity be changed to allow for marriage later?

Marriage is a Sacrament, and Third Order Lay Carmelites may certainly marry. The charism of Carmel enhances their vocation, whatever it may be.

We recently celebrated the marriage of one of our Lay Carmelite Community members.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

If a person joins the third order and is single, does it mean that she must remain single her entire life, like a nun? Or can the chastity be changed to allow for marriage later?

Secular Franciscans can marry. All Secular Franciscans are called to practice chastity, whether single or married. For single people, “chastity” does imply celibacy, but a married couple can have marital relations and still be practicing chastity as it is defined within marriage.

So, no special change or dispensation is required for a single Secular Franciscan to marry.

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[FCEGM]

After reading more about this order and the Charism of the Carmelites and prayer I am coming close to thinking of joining this order as well. Although I do alot things they have rules of the couple things i dont do i want to start practising before I talk to anyone about joining. I am going to start with the Lectio Divina.

As I read through the posts I didn’t see specific mention of the fact of there being two distinct Carmelite Orders (Carmelites of the Ancient Observance, O. Carm., and Discalced Carmelites, O.C.D.), each with its own Secular branch; are you aware of this? God bless you in your discernment for whichever.

(I’m a Secular Discalced Carmelite. )

 

[lak611]

I am single right now, and I practice chastity as a single person (i.e. celibacy). If I was to marry, which I don’t see happening in any near future, since I am not even dating anyone, it would be with someone who has the same beliefs that I do. I believe that St. Paul is correct when he says that marriage must be to someone who is in the faith.

 

[Dorothy]

I am single right now, and I practice chastity as a single person (i.e. celibacy). If I was to marry, which I don’t see happening in any near future, since I am not even dating anyone, it would be with someone who has the same beliefs that I do. I believe that St. Paul is correct when he says that marriage must be to someone who is in the faith.

I agree that it would be of great spiritual advantage to you and any prospective marriage partner to be of the same faith, and to your future family as well. And, I might add, that the person be a Catholic that follows the magisterium of the Church.

 

[Ecat]

Hello,

A couple of notes if I may in response to some of the posts. I am new to this posting thing…but I will try.

1. Members of Third Orders (secular orders) make either a promise or some take private vows. The private vows** are a further bond with the Order, but do not change our secular state in life. Vows involve the virtue of religion, hence the profession of and the living of the vows offer worship to God and are a further consecration. They also add the merit of the virtue of religion, bring grace to live the vows, and add further moral responsibility (CCC 2102, ST II II Q 88 a. 5).

Most third orders make promises… which is not binding in conscience.

1. As to joining more than one third order…technically and canonically this is possible now…but it is rare since being a tertiary is a vocation within the lay state and thus one would not likly be part of two orders…
2. There are a number of third orders historically.

In the Holy Trinity,

Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.
**

 

[Dorothy]

Hello,

A couple of notes if I may in response to some of the posts. I am new to this posting thing…but I will try.

1. Members of Third Orders (secular orders) make either a promise or some take private vows. The private vows** are a further bond with the Order, but do not change our secular state in life. Vows involve the virtue of religion, hence the profession of and the living of the vows offer worship to God and are a further consecration. They also add the merit of the virtue of religion, bring grace to live the vows, and add further moral responsibility (CCC 2102, ST II II Q 88 a. 5).

Most third orders make promises… which is not binding in conscience.

1. As to joining more than one third order…technically and canonically this is possible now…but it is rare since being a tertiary is a vocation within the lay state and thus one would not likly be part of two orders…
2. There are a number of third orders historically.

In the Holy Trinity,

Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.
**

With regards to #2 above - can you tell me what # canon allows this? It makes no sense to me. How can a person live the Rule of the Carmelites and also belong to the Secular Franciscans?

If it means something like one can be in the Legion of Mary and also in a Third Order then I understand.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

With regards to #2 above - can you tell me what # canon allows this? It makes no sense to me. How can a person live the Rule of the Carmelites and also belong to the Secular Franciscans?

If it means something like one can be in the Legion of Mary and also in a Third Order then I understand.

I can’t speak for the other orders, but I am a Secular Franciscan, and if you are a Secular Franciscan, you can’t belong to any other orders.

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[Dorothy]

I can’t speak for the other orders, but I am a Secular Franciscan, and if you are a Secular Franciscan, you can’t belong to any other orders.

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**Pace e Bene

I am a Lay Carmelite, and we cannot belong to any other orders either.

 

[Ecat]

Ok, regarding number 2.

While the 1917 code did not premit the being members of more than one Third Order…the 1983 Code of Canon Law does by its absence of any prohibition.

This is noted here 3op.org/faq.php in one of the questions. It says: “The Code of Canon Law (1983) does not limit the number of “Third Orders” as they are still defined as “Associations”, however, what is implied is that formation is required in the particular religious institute’s spirituality and charism before one can be admitted to that “Association.” What is implied is that that Association (in our case the Third Order of Saint Dominic) has an administrative body and spiritual or religious promoter that may not recommend admission if that body believes that the Candidate would not be able to live faithfully in more than one charism."

Also another example in the New Rule of the Third Order of Carmel which was approved by the Holy See it states:

**79. **Candidates for the Carmelite Third Order must be practising Catholics, be at least 18 years old, unless the local statutes provide otherwise, and they must present a letter of recommendation from their parish priest or another priest who knows them. There is no reason why they should not belong to another third order or to other associations,[123] unless the local statutes provide otherwise.

ocarm.org/eng/articles/rtoc-eng.htm#6

So it is a possiblity. But again NOT something I would recommend. Since it is a vocation and it would have to be a very special vocation to combine two charisms like that. But I have known of even a Religious who was seeking to found an order that would do just that–in Religious Life.

Kevin,O.SS.T.,Ter.

 

[Ecat]

Honestly the answer is it depends on the Third Order. Since different Third Orders have different rules and different expectations. Most Third/Secular Orders that I have researched only require chastity, not celibacy. If you decide to get married there is no problem. There may be issues however if you get married outside the norms of the Catholic church (i.e. marriage without annulment, etc.)

I do not believe ANY secular third orders would require celibacy (ie never marrying). But yes of course if you are not married (ie validly according to the Church) but rather in an “attempted marriage” then one could not be a tertiary. But a single person can of course be a tertiary and may change their state later.

Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.

 

[Marauder]

I do not believe ANY secular third orders would require celibacy (ie never marrying).

I only said most instead of all because without researching ALL secular third Orders there is no way of knowing. Since Third Order Regular Franciscans consists of priests and nuns, my bet is they recquire celebacy. Whether that is in addition to their Rule due to the fact they are priests or part of the rule, I don’t know since I haven’t researched it enough. I felt the better answer was to tell the person to look at the rule for the particular order and that Most Third Orders require chastity not celebacy.

 

[Dorothy]

Kevin, thank you for that information regarding membership in more than one third order. I can certainly understand why it would be very unusual for someone to seek this. However, now the rules make it possible for that very small percent who may be called to do so.

 

[Ecat]

Kevin, thank you for that information regarding membership in more than one third order. I can certainly understand why it would be very unusual for someone to seek this. However, now the rules make it possible for that very small percent who may be called to do so.

Dorothy,

And I can not imagine there would be many who would or could…

By the way it may interest you that my own tertiary vocation came from reading your Rule back when I was around 15 and not even Catholic yet!



Since then I have loved the tertiary vocation and enjoy reading the verious manifestations of it… and history etc

 

[Ecat]

I only said most instead of all because without researching ALL secular third Orders there is no way of knowing. Since Third Order Regular Franciscans consists of priests and nuns, my bet is they recquire celebacy. Whether that is in addition to their Rule due to the fact they are priests or part of the rule, I don’t know since I haven’t researched it enough. I felt the better answer was to tell the person to look at the rule for the particular order and that Most Third Orders require chastity not celebacy.

Maruader,

Yes they would be third order “regular” (meaning religious) where as third order secular are seculars. Of course you are right that if one is a secular priest and becomes a secualar tertiary --of course they would be required to be celebate…

But the secular orders or third orders secular, do not per se require celebacy. And many do not have a promise or vow of chastity according to thier state --of course it is presumed as a catholic!

 

[Dorothy]

Dorothy,

And I can not imagine there would be many who would or could…

By the way it may interest you that my own tertiary vocation came from reading your Rule back when I was around 15 and not even Catholic yet!



Since then I have loved the tertiary vocation and enjoy reading the verious manifestations of it… and history etc

What you have shared above is very interesting. The Holy Spirit knows how to call each one of us! Of what Third Order are you a member? Those abbreviations don’t give me a clue.

When I was much younger I was always attracted to reading about the Carmelite saints - St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross. For many years I did not know there was even such a thing as a Third Order. Then a friend of mine invited me to go with her to one of her Carmelite meetings, and it was the beginning of something new and wonderful in my life. This was about 28 years ago, and it is a journey I never regret beginning.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Ecat]

Dorothy,

Thanks. Yes…I was a 15 year old Baptist kid in Oklahoma reading the Lay Carmelite Rule. I remember saying to my Grandma I think -that “this is what I want to be --something like this one” or something of that sort.

Later when I was 16-17 I was very Franciscan --so I wanted to be a Franciscan Tertiary…then When I finally became a Catholic at 18…I did not prosue it. But three years later I became a Trinitarian Tertiary. So I am a Tertiary of the Order of the Holy Trinity and Captives founded in 1198 to ransom Christian Captives taked by the muslems. Our Motto is Glory to the Trinity and Liberty to Captives --which sums up our Charism.

I also did for my thesis in Theology at Steubenville --on the Theology of the Third Order Seculars

Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.