What is antisemitism?

[OneSheep]

We are justly saying that those who hold those ideologies are/were participating in evil.

Who is this “we” you are talking about. Does everyone think that the Nazis themselves, as people, were evil? Are you speaking for the other posters here?

We are justly condemning the ideology of the Nazis as evil.

Me too.

saying any of it is eye-for-an-eye thinking is outrageous.

I see your outrage. I am saying that if I condemn someone, their own condemnation toward me will be triggered. Do you also see that this happens?

 

[tafan2]

Who is this “we” you are talking about. Does everyone think that the Nazis themselves, as people, were evil? Are you speaking for the other posters here?

Perhaps I was presumptuous, but the we included posters such as @niceatheist and @gracepoole and @Fauken . If I misrepresented their views, I apologize to them.

I am almost certain they and most anyone else would agree with my statement you quoted: We are justly saying that those who hold those ideologies are/were participating in evil.

Do you take exception to this statement?

Are you ready to address the article?

Which article, the one titled “Antisemitism, The Longest Hatred”. I do not see anything in it which I would disagree with to any significant extent.

 

[gracepoole]

You definitely didn’t misrepresent my views.

 

[OneSheep]

Except you have, and that’s why others here are struggling. There is nothing else that can be made of this

I was making a statement about myself, and I asked if you had the same experience. Yes, there is “something else” that can be made of that statement. It is an attempt to bring the conversation deeper into our nature.

You see, just as all the great museums communicate, genocide can happen again, and genocide can happen to any group. We are to address all bigotry, not just that against Jewish people, which is what can be gathered from any holocaust museum, right? I’m not criticizing the museums themselves, but I would like to point out some inadvertent items in the article you posted, and explain how the inadvertent items exacerbate the problem.

That you’re describing this as on par with the planned destruction of all European Jewry is stunning.

Well first, you say that I ascribe to this Irving guy, and now you say I am on par with the planned destruction. Do you find this charitable?

Read it. Still haven’t a clue.

The Nazis projected the parts they repressed in themselves onto Jews and others. It is very painful to come to own the parts of ourselves that we repress. Do you see that we commonly repress our desire for power and wealth? It is part of conscience formation.

They were blind to the humanity inherent in their victims

Yes! Just as those who hung Jesus were blind, and He forgave them. Do you see this ability to forgive in Eva Kor? I do.

And what conclusion should we draw from this? Certainly not pity for the perpetrators.

No, the pity would serve no purpose, even if it is triggered. When we forgive evildoers instead of condemning them, we create a new climate, one of forgiveness. Forgiveness does not preclude protecting people or seeking justice.

We can pursue justice with forgiving hearts, rather than condemning ones.

 

[OneSheep]

We are justly saying that those who hold those ideologies are/were participating in evil.

Do you take exception to this statement?

I do not take exception. They were participating in evil.

They were all blinded by their resentment and hatred.

 

[tafan2]

You see, just as all the great museums communicate, genocide can happen again, and genocide can happen to any group. We are to address all bigotry, not just that against Jewish people, which is what can be gathered from any holocaust museum, right? I’m not criticizing the museums themselves, but I would like to point out some inadvertent items in the article you posted, and explain how the inadvertent items exacerbate the problem.

So, can you please be clear? Earlier you said the museums might trigger resentment from other groups who have suffered genocide. Is this triggering of resentment what you mean by exacerbating the problem? And is the problem you refer to in this quote as anti-Semitism?

Assuming an answer of “yes” to the last two questions, are you saying that by presenting to us the details of the holocaust, the Jews are making anti-Semitism worse?

 

[tafan2]

Good, I would rather you just be misrepresenting my position than taking an even more explicit anti-Semitic stance.

 

[OneSheep]

Earlier you said the museums might trigger resentment from other groups who have suffered genocide.

I did not say this. What I said was that the media gives more attention to one particular genocide. Other people want their stories heard also.

Is this triggering of resentment what you mean by exacerbating the problem?

And is the problem you refer to in this quote as anti-Semitism?

The problems are blame and bigotry. The article, if I may make my case, inadvertently perpetuates blame. Blame and resentment are tied together.

I’ve put a lot of effort into this thread today, and I ask that posters look into their hearts and try to give me the benefit of the doubt. I would like to get to the real sources of bigotry and blame.

So please, while I am gone, can you try to be more charitable? I’m off to work.

 

[tafan2]

I did not say this. What I said was that the media gives more attention to one particular genocide. Other people want their stories heard also.

Fair enough, except you did say earlier you did also lay it at the feet of the museums: "this sort of “this hatred is worse than other hatred” which is in part promoted by holocaust museums ", so that is why I was asking.

I’ve put a lot of effort into this thread today, and I ask that posters look into their hearts and try to give me the benefit of the doubt. I would like to get to the real sources of bigotry and blame.

So please, while I am gone, can you try to be more charitable?

I would like to say I understand what you have been trying to say, but your lack of clarity and your hesitancy to clearly answer questions posed to you make that difficult. On one hand, I get it, you don’t want to condemn anyone, we should forgive everyone, we should seek to understand, etc. On the other hand, some of your posts really come across as very offensive and anti-Semetic. And despite numerous posters trying to point out why, you seem to refuse to be understanding of the points raised against you. And you, in more than one place, misrepresent statements which others make.

I will be more charitable, to the extent I have not been charitable, I apologize. But I do not withdraw any words or comments I have made about your statements.

 

[OneSheep]

which is in part promoted by holocaust museums

In this case, that is what it appears to be. The promotion of blame is inadvertent, they don’t even realize that it is happening. The same can be said on most nightly news reports where you only get one side of the story.

If there is a conflict, and one only hears one side of the story, then the inclination is to believe the party giving the one side one hears, if it is a trusted source, of course.

Let’s take a well-known example of some mutual resentments from the New Testament, resentments that Jesus addressed in radical ways. First we have the animosity between the Roman occupiers and the people of all of Palestine, and secondly we have the friction between the Jews and the Samaritans, which was often quite hostile. The Samaritans considered themselves “the true Israelites”, which was met with resentment from other Jewish people. Samaritans resented the other Jews, and I think it is likely that there was politics and tribalism involved. The Judeans had Jerusalem as their “mountain” and the Samaritans had Gerizim.

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/samaritans

In both of these conflicts, there are two sides to the story. All the actions involved could be understood in the context of human nature. Does it do any good to blame either side of these conflicts? No, it does not. Instead, we can seek to understand and forgive those who were hostile, and to do so we must hear both sides of the story.

I would like to say I understand what you have been trying to say, but your lack of clarity

It sounds clear to me! Feel free to continue asking question, tafan2!

your hesitancy to clearly answer questions posed to you make that difficult.

This is simply not the case. If you are having trouble understanding my posts, please let me know. I have no hesitation whatsoever in explaining my POV as clearly as possible.

some of your posts really come across as very offensive and anti-Semetic.

Sigh… The problem is that when one promotes understanding of people who are condemned, then it sounds like condoning or “making excuses” for the condemned. This does not have to be the case; it is not my intent to make excuses for people, only to promote understanding and forgiveness. Forgiveness, not condemnation, is the ultimate antidote for bigotry.

 

[OneSheep]

you seem to refuse to be understanding of the points raised against you

The only points I remember are simple condemnations of my words as antisemitic. No, I do not hate or resent Jewish people, I love them as brothers and sisters. What I am seeing is that when I promote understanding, this triggers something in you. Is that correct?

Now, do you see that I am asking, rather than assuming something about you? This is the charitable approach. I am not “refusing” to understand, even though it may seem that way.

And you, in more than one place, misrepresent statements which others make.

I am very open to possibly doing so. Could you bring forth an example?

I will be more charitable, to the extent I have not been charitable, I apologize.

Thank you tafan2! I accept your apology, and I hold nothing against you. Shadow work is very painful and difficult. It can bring out the worst in us.

 

[tafan2]

I am very open to possibly doing so. Could you bring forth an example?

I already have. I believe it is post number 295.

 

[OneSheep]

I looked there, and could not find a misrepresentation.

Is this triggering of resentment what you mean by exacerbating the problem?

It can, but that is not what I was thinking when I wrote my reaction to the article. The article appears to come from the US holocaust museum, and it only tells one side of the story (and actually, it doesn’t tell that side very well either, but it does not even mention the other side).

I will address the article.

 

[tafan2]

I looked there, and could not find a misrepresentation.

Ok, I will back up the conversation for you.

I posted this:

Good, I would rather you just be misrepresenting my position than taking an even more explicit anti-Semitic stance.

In response to :

I do not take exception. They were participating in evil.

Which was when you answered my question:

I am almost certain they and most anyone else would agree with my statement you quoted: We are justly saying that those who hold those ideologies are/were participating in evil.

Do you take exception to this statement?

Now, that exact statement you had represented as :

Does everyone think that the Nazis themselves, as people, were evil?

Note, I said they were participating in evil, you gave a rhetorical question designed to imply I had said they were evil.

 

[tafan2]

That you’re describing this as on par with the planned destruction of all European Jewry is stunning.

This is another example of you misrepresenting @Gracepoole 's statement.

I could find several more examples, but I feel my point has been made.

 

[tafan2]

The only points I remember are simple condemnations of my words as antisemitic

These come condemnations have been made at least 4 posters, on multiple points, all of whom obviously are on the side of being just and fair to Jews. If I was you, I would not pout about people being uncharitable to myself, and instead seriously consider that I might be inadvertently saying something’s that are just not right.

 

[OneSheep]

Note, I said they were participating in evil, you gave a rhetorical question designed to imply I had said they were evil.

I am confused; I think the comments you made might have been edited.

 

[OneSheep]

These come condemnations have been made at least 4 posters, on multiple points, all of whom obviously are on the side of being just and fair to Jews.

Jesus calls us not to condemn, not to judge, but to forgive.

 

[tafan2]

Nope, copied and pasted, word for word.

 

[OneSheep]

You are correct, and your post does not show an edit. I remember the “participate” line, but I also remember another line. I am still confused.

So are you agreeing with me that those people who hate are not evil? Can we agree that what they do with the hate is evil, but they themselves are not?