What is antisemitism?

[OneSheep]

If the analogy in anyway is intended to imply the Jews are somehow responsible, in the least bit, for the Holocaust, you should be ashamed of yourself.

I can only claim responsibility for my own actions. I shared my own story. If I say that someone else is “responsible” for their own demise, then that very well could be seen as blaming, which is not the intent of my words. I was making some reference to the article Grace posted.

I could not disagree more. We most certainly do need to continue to call the Nazis ( and communists, bte) evil.

I cannot do this (call them evil), in part because this is exactly the way that the Nazis (generally speaking) viewed Jewish people and others, as having a negative value, as disposable or worthless. No person is evil, everyone has infinite value in God’s eyes; and no group of people is evil. The ideologies of Naziism were untrue, and their action were indeed quite evil, and society needs to remember the holocaust.

Of course it is very natural to return evil with evil. They (Nazis) condemn, and we (Jewish people and those of us who empathize with them) condemn back. To call someone evil is a condemnation. Jesus calls us to forgive, not to condemn. I refer again to Eva Kor. She exemplifies Jesus in this regard.

We should never allow ourselves to forget how evil the Nazis were, not in the least. The Kingdom depends on this.

We should never forget the evil they have done, yes. But if we think of people as “evil” then we are condemning. Condemning others is the opposite of forgiveness, and not of the Kingdom.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

Such hatred and bigotry found within our own Catholic community

 

[OneSheep]

This is anti-Semitic and extremely nativist. I firmly reject this.

Wow, that is a really amazing judgment, GOM, what part of my questions were antisemitic?

When you looked at the questions, did you project hatred?

I do not partake in the “natural” you refer to because I don’t hate people who look different than myself or have more money than me.

Then you should have no problem “stomaching” your answers to the questions. My questions did not mention hatred at all. Hatred does happen though, and our capacity for hatred is part of our nature, is it not?

Also this assumption that Jewish people have all this money and buy governments and media and houses is stereotypical, hateful, and fuels violence.

I did not talk about that assumption. Your comment brings us another question, though. So what if Jewish people do these things? Jewish people are just as caring and compassionate as anyone else. They have the same rights to lobby government and buy things as anyone else.

This is anti-Catholic thinking.

Nothing in my questions were anti-Catholic. They were about human nature.

Jesus condemned the hypocritical Pharisees for this line of questioning

Please cite the Gospel.

Like I am saying, these questions stir up an encounter with our own psychological shadows. It is very natural to react to them. “That’s not me!” We repress the parts of ourselves that we resent, and this is how our conscience forms.

 

[gracepoole]

Did you see Forgiving Dr. Mengele? If not, you should. Eva has managed forgiveness for some (much to the consternation of fellow survivors, BTW) but not for others.

You’re treading in waters that you should probably study further. There are entire courses devoted to forgiveness and reconciliation after genocide. Respectfully, it doesn’t seem that your thoughts here are informed by that content in any way.

 

[OneSheep]

Got Judgment? I thought he was talking about the Chinese Americans!

It could be Chinese Americans in the California Bay Area. It could be California Liberals moving to Idaho. It could be Germans in Argentina. It could be Dutch in South Africa.

It can happen anywhere.

 

[niceatheist]

That’s the way subtler forms of anti-Semitism work. They can’t just come out and broadcast all the old stereotypical memes, so they couch it, imagining that their sentiments aren’t clearly visible.

 

[OneSheep]

Eva has managed forgiveness for some (much to the consternation of fellow survivors, BTW) but not for others.

We are all a work in progress. The deepest reconciliation is shadow work, Grace.

I have forgiven everyone I held anything against, Grace. I am getting the impression I have offended you. If so, do you wish to forgive me?

Here is the most important question I asked:

1. And finally, notice what I have called “natural”. Are you able to stomach accepting this as part of your own nature, or are you more inclined to deny it?

If the answers to the first three questions go to more negative reactions, then of course our answer to question 4 will be that we are more inclined to deny it. If, instead, the answers to the first three questions are tempered by our natural conscience, then there will be no negative reaction to “stomach”.

In either case, though, we have our own shadow at work. Forgiveness and reconciliation, at their deepest level, is “shadow work”, and we can utilize the Gospel to guide us.

The first thing we can remember is “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Grace, when people are hurting others, they do not have a clue what they are doing.

 

[OneSheep]

We are trying to define antisemitism, and now people are saying that my questions were antisemitic.

Do you find my questions antisemitic? They are about human nature, what naturally happens when humans have certain experiences. Note: I did not give the answers. The answers came from pure projection on the part of the viewers.

 

[niceatheist]

Yes, questions can be anti-semitic, if they are leading questions.

 

[OneSheep]

Can you give me an example as to where they “lead”?

I appreciate your use of the words “can be”. We all need to try to avoid the Kafka fallacy, where a person sets themselves up as a judge and someone has to defend their motives because of a judgment.

If a person reacts to the questions, they will have a tendency to judge the person writing.

This is shadow work, which is dangerous territory. It stirs up a great deal of emotion. But if we ever truly want to avoid genocide in the future, we must engage our shadows.

 

[niceatheist]

There’s not much in the shadows. Jews were the objects of derision and persecution even before Christianity, but a good many of the tropes like blood libel, Jews being money hungry, being a people apart and so on, leading to relatively modern claims about a Jewish cabal running the world beyond the scenes (including “observations” like Jews running Hollywood) are the product of long standing anti-Semitism.

And yes, one can criticize the state of Israel. Many Jews inside and outside Israel do so. But when that overreaches, and the whole notion of a Jewish cabal is invoked, so that criticism of Israel becomes a criticism of Jews as a group, then that is anti-Semitic. Other examples include trying to minimize the Holocaust by complaining that Jews get special attention, then that’s anti-Semitism as well.

 

[tafan2]

I can only claim responsibility for my own actions. I shared my own story. If I say that someone else is “responsible” for their own demise, then that very well could be seen as blaming, which is not the intent of my words. I was making some reference to the article Grace posted.

In the context that included both the broad concept of anti-Semitism and specifically the holocaust, you gave an analogy of how you have been in some part responsible for the bad things which have happened to you. When questioned, you say that you may be saying someone else is “responsible” for their own demise (conveniently not naming the jews, but who else are we talking about?) and just saying its not the same as saying they are to blame. I am confident I have summarized your statements accurately.
I find them despicable. It would be very easy for you to clarify and say that you in no way find the Jews responsible for the atrocities they have been subjected to throughout the centuries and particularly for the holocaust. Your preaching of forgiveness and reconciliation is falling on deaf ears here.

I cannot do this (call them evil), in part because this is exactly the way that the Nazis (generally speaking) viewed Jewish people and others, as having a negative value, as disposable or worthless.

First of all, you simply cannot make this equivalence with any degree of moral integrity. As for calling the Nazis evil, it is certainly justified were evil. Now, I hope that at least some of them repented and ceased to be evil, but it is a fitting label for them at the time of their crimes.
Someone said that evil does not exist, it is the absence of goodness. I agree with this. And the Nazis had a huge, gaping absence of goodness.

 

[OneSheep]

”A Christian cannot be an anti-Semite”
- Pope Francis

We have a duty to protect our Jewish brothers and sisters and also to fight against the hatred of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is fueled by evil and comes directly from the devil, we must speak against it. Nazism is directly from the devil, we must speak against it.

I want to thank you for posting this. We must indeed speak against Nazism and all forms of bigotry.

However, we are not called to condemn bigots, even though that is our natural reaction. We are called to understand and forgive them.

 

[tafan2]

I am not claiming your questions to be anti-Semitic, I am claiming your statements to be so. I understand you have given no answers to the question pertaining to the definition of antisemitism, but you have certainly given examples of it.

 

[OneSheep]

When questioned, you say that you may be saying someone else is “responsible” for their own demise

I did not say that someone was responsible for their own demise. I said that I was in part responsible for my own demise. Have you ever had a time where you eventually came to painfully admit that you were in part responsible for your own demise?

I am not claiming your questions to be anti-Semitic, I am claiming your statements to be so.

What have I said, specifically, that is antisemitic? We are trying to define antisemitism here.

I find them despicable

Please forgive me. They were not meant to offend, but to open a discussion toward human nature.

 

[OneSheep]

I understand you have given no answers to the question pertaining to the definition of antisemitism

I agree with many other people’s definitions on the thread here. Even though the word “semitic” refers to Arabs, Assyrians, and others also, our use is “anti-Jewish bigotry”. I am in agreement with this use, because that is the way our society uses it.

 

[tafan2]

I did not say that someone was responsible for their own demise. I said that I was in part responsible for my own demise. Have you ever had a time where you eventually came to painfully admit that you were in part responsible for your own demise?
…
What have I said, specifically, that is antisemitic? We are trying to define antisemitism here.
…
Please forgive me. They were not meant to offend…

Again, to be brief, you brought up the analogy of your own responsibility when discussing the Jews and the holocaust. If the analogy was not meant to apply to the Jews, please clarify very clearly that you do not believe the Jews were in anyway responsible for their demise. Until you do so, I will continue to interpret what you have said as VERY anti-Semitic. If you want forgiveness, just provide a clear and unambiguous statement to that effect. Until then, it is hard to take you thoughts about human nature seriously.

 

[tafan2]

I agree with many other people’s definitions on the thread here. Even though the word “semitic” refers to Arabs, Assyrians, and others also, our use is “anti-Jewish bigotry”. I am in agreement with this use, because that is the way our society uses it.

My gosh, I get so tired of people who say semitic refers to Arabs, etc when discussing anti-Semitism. It is completely out of place, and there is no need to bring up the “even though”. It is a classic way which people deny, to some extent or another, the whole concept of anti-Semitism is very clear, it is directed at Jews and jews only. It is not just our use on this thread.

 

[OneSheep]

Therefore, my value as a human is not based on whether I’m good or not (which in any case is a status that can change). It’s based on my having been created by God in his image.

I agree with your saying that God loves us and values us no matter what we do, if that is an accurate restatement.

All creation is good, so there is not an alternative. Are you familiar with St. Augustine’s Confessions? When we see part of creation as bad, that is dualism.

If you experience guilt over sins you’ve committed, you may no doubt also experience feelings of worthlessness, but the proper response is to repent and appeal to God’s mercy.

Exactly. When we blame, there is a cognitive disvalue, we see ourselves as worthless or evil. We don’t value ourselves as much when we are self blaming (guilt).

Society may view an evil person as dangerous, with justification.

That wasn’t my question though. Does society view an “evil person” as valuable as a “good person”?

 

[OneSheep]

It is not just our use on this thread

Yes, it is not our use on this thread, but we need to keep in mind that there is plenty of anti-Arab hatred in this world also. I would like this thread to apply to all bigotry, not just that against Jewish people, even though antisemitism is the focus.

In saying that, do you agree with President Trump that in not condemning antisemitism alone, I am anti-Jewish? At the last JVP meeting I went to, the democrats in the group laughed about being anti-Jewish because they reject all bigotry instead of antisemitism only.