What is antisemitism?

[OneSheep]

Again, to be brief, you brought up the analogy of your own responsibility when discussing the Jews and the holocaust.

I did not do this. I was in part referencing an article posted by Grace, an article that inadvertently makes the problem worse. And the part of the article that makes the problem worse is not where the holocaust is mentioned. Would you like to discuss the article?

If I made an antisemitic statement, please bring it forth. Otherwise, please do not accuse me. In the Kafka fallacy, the accuser sets themselves as the authoritative judge. I have already made many unambiguous statements rejecting antisemitism. We are to reject all bigotry, including antisemitism.

If you want forgiveness, just provide a clear and unambiguous statement to that effect.

I asked for your forgiveness, but if you are holding a grudge don’t do forgive for me, I hold nothing against you. Do like Eva Kor, forgive because holding a grudge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. She was tired of holding onto the hatred.

Jesus asks us to understand, to forgive, to let go of the hatred. Eva Kor did not wait for the Nazis to make “unambiguous statements” before she forgave. After all, many of her persecutors were already dead.

Are you thinking that we are only called to forgive if a person repents? If that is the case, we could hang onto a grudge our entire lives.

 

[Fauken]

@OneSheep, I’m going to ask you a very straight forward and yes, a leading question. And it only requires a yes/no answer, and just yes or no. Do you hold the Jewish people to be in any way responsible for the Holocaust that the Nazis perpetuated against them?

 

[OneSheep]

There’s not much in the shadows.

Perhaps I need to define the “shadow”. I’m talking about the part of ourselves that we psychologically repress. I can demonstrate from your post.

Jews were the objects of derision and persecution even before Christianity,

Yes

Jews being money hungry

This is projected shadow on the part of the accusers. We all are naturally inclined to hoard resources, and our consciences are designed to address this and other parts of our nature. All of us, by nature, are “money hungry”. When I repress this part of my nature, (note: repression is a good and natural part of conscience formation) this part of my nature becomes part of my shadow, and guides my behavior towards altruism. I condemn the “hoarding” part of my nature, and I condemn others when I project that they are hoarding resources.

And yes, one can criticize the state of Israel. Many Jews inside and outside Israel do so. But when that overreaches, and the whole notion of a Jewish cabal is invoked, so that criticism of Israel becomes a criticism of Jews as a group, then that is anti-Semitic

I agree. And there is the thinking that there is a “cabal”. By projecting shadow, people think that the cabal, if it exists, intends to dominate. Our desire to dominate is also part of our shadow. We naturally want to dominate, but we repress it in the same way I described above.

 

[niceatheist]

GospelOfMatthew:

”A Christian cannot be an anti-Semite”
- Pope Francis

We have a duty to protect our Jewish brothers and sisters and also to fight against the hatred of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is fueled by evil and comes directly from the devil, we must speak against it. Nazism is directly from the devil, we must speak against it.

I want to thank you for posting this. We must indeed speak against Nazism and all forms of bigotry.

However, we are not called to condemn bigots, even though that is our natural reaction. We are called to understand and forgive them.

But this is absurd. The Church, historically (and to some extent still does) condemn, for instance, heretics and blasphemers. I think you’re splitting hairs here, and I can’t quite sort out why. One can certainly forgive even someone as evil as a Nazi, but when can still judge their actions, and the underlying psychology, up to and including recognizing that some people are indeed, for lack of a better word, evil. I shed no tears for the likes of Jodl, von Ribbentrop and Goring. They were monsters, men completely unhinged from any kind of morality or ethics, were either psychopaths or so twisted by hatred and ideology that they committed among the most vile acts in human history.

I can’t say I hate any of them. They were all long dead by the time I was born, but I believe their vile ideology, where it still lurks and evolves, is something that requires a harder touch than merely understand and forgive them. Nazism and Fascism lead the world into the most destructive conflict in its history, so I’m not going to put my arms around a Neo-nazi or anti-Semite and forgive them. I’m going to attack them by all the legal means available to me, because members of my family went overseas to, for a lack of a better word, kill as many of their intellectual forebears as possible.

 

[niceatheist]

This is projected shadow on the part of the accusers. We all are naturally inclined to hoard resources, and our consciences are designed to address this and other parts of our nature. All of us, by nature, are “money hungry”. When I repress this part of my nature, (note: repression is a good and natural part of conscience formation) this part of my nature becomes part of my shadow, and guides my behavior towards altruism. I condemn the “hoarding” part of my nature, and I condemn others when I project that they are hoarding resources.

This looks like nothing more than an attempt to abrogate a kind of anti-Semitic sentiment by personalizing it. It basically says “Jews are hoarders, and that’s wrong, but y’know, I could be too…”

I’m sorry, but this looks like nothing more than an attempt to normalize a peculiar criticism of Jews. What’s more, it’s wholly taken out of context. One of the reasons money lending was a peculiar occupation of European Jewry is because in many jurisdictions they were banned from most other occupations. Since, at the time, Christendom believed money lending to be usury, and therefore a sin, Christian princes relied upon Jews, who in some cases, could do nothing else other than the moneyed occupations, to lend them money. You are literally condemning Jews for something Christians made them do.

 

[OneSheep]

The Church, historically (and to some extent still does) condemn, for instance, heretics and blasphemers

Yes, this is an error, but it is also very natural. We see a statement we find atrocious, and we react not only to the statement but the person making the statement. We are to forgive people, not condemn them.

someone as evil as a Nazi

If the person still sees the other as “evil” they have only forgiven superficially.

including recognizing that some people are indeed, for lack of a better word, evil.

There are much better words. “Evildoer” works. “People who don’t know what they are doing and hurt others.” That way, you could also include me.

Otherwise, when I call someone evil, I am immediately saying that they have a negative affect (vs my own “goodness”).

They were monsters, men completely unhinged from any kind of morality or ethics, were either psychopaths

Yes, they might have been psychopaths. Psychopaths have an empathy disability, they have little or no sense of value of other people. It is normal to judge them, but we can understand and forgive them.

I’m not going to put my arms around a Neo-nazi or anti-Semite and forgive them. I’m going to attack them by all the legal means available to me

Peace must begin within us, friend. We can seek justice with forgiving hearts. We can pursue legal means, even go to war, with forgiving hearts. I know that sounds very strange, but Jesus calls us to forgive first. I know a man in the military who says that they are not encouraged to have the “vietnam-type” mentality when they go to war. They are encouraged to see soldiers on the other side as normal people with children and lives just like they are. The reason, however, is not about forgiveness, it is about not being hot-headed in battle, which is a recipe for great error.

Jesus’ contemporaries had the same objections. They thought His call to “forgive enemies” was abominable. They were persecuted daily by the Romans.

This looks like nothing more than an attempt to abrogate a kind of anti-Semitic sentiment by personalizing it. It basically says “Jews are hoarders, and that’s wrong, but y’know, I could be too…”

That’s not what I said. You are building a straw man, are you not?

 

[OneSheep]

No. I have to add more words to this or the forum does not accept it.

 

[tafan2]

I did not do this

I have reviewed the context again, and I continue to think my summary of your statements is accurate. You gave the analogy immediately after bringing up the Holocaust museums (in a fashion which could certainly be interpreted negatively) and immediately after your analogy, you turn back to discussing the holocaust and questioning why it is “blame, blame, blame”.

No. I have to add more words to this or the forum does not accept it.

Finally.

 

[OneSheep]

I have reviewed the context again, and I continue to think my summary of your statements is accurate. You gave the analogy immediately after bringing up the Holocaust museums (in a fashion which could certainly be interpreted negatively) and immediately after your analogy, you turn back to discussing the holocaust and questioning why it is “blame, blame, blame”.

I think you are wanting to condemn my observations. Please quote them in context, and we can discuss. Otherwise, I ask that you try to withhold judgment.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Eva has managed forgiveness for some (much to the consternation of fellow survivors, BTW) but not for others.

We are all a work in progress. The deepest reconciliation is shadow work, Grace.

I have forgiven everyone I held anything against, Grace. I am getting the impression I have offended you. If so, do you wish to forgive me?

Here is the most important question I asked:

1. And finally, notice what I have called “natural”. Are you able to stomach accepting this as part of your own nature, or are you more inclined to deny it?

If the answers to the first three questions go to more negative reactions, then of course our answer to question 4 will be that we are more inclined to deny it. If, instead, the answers to the first three questions are tempered by our natural conscience, then there will be no negative reaction to “stomach”.

In either case, though, we have our own shadow at work. Forgiveness and reconciliation, at their deepest level, is “shadow work”, and we can utilize the Gospel to guide us.

The first thing we can remember is “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Grace, when people are hurting others, they do not have a clue what they are doing.

You have not offended me. Thanks for inquiring.

David Irving, infamous Holocaust denier, offers some of the same assertions you’ve given here. He maintains that everyone – including the Jews – is responsible for his own fortune or misfortune. The obvious, nagging question then is this: “Do I really want to be associated with Holocaust deniers? If not, why are the arguments I’m offering often given by them, too?”

As for your points here, I’ve absolutely no idea what “the deepest reconciliation is shadow work” means.

Your quote of Christ on the cross, I’d suggest, is a horrible abuse and misinterpretation of His words. “Grace, when people are hurting others, they do not have a clue what they are doing.” You’re arguing, however poetically, that the Nazis didn’t have a clue about what they were doing?

Again, your application of terms like forgiveness in this context seems ill-formed. And again, there are scholars you might consult who delve deeply into this issue.

 

[YourNameHere]

Hate is a terrible thing no matter where it comes from or who the hate is directed toward.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
I think it is great that our country has tried to get the Israelis and the arabs to try to life in peace. But there are extremists on both sides that will not compromise.
9-11 made it easier for Americans to side with the Israelis. But the Israelis have spied on our country, so there are reasons enough for Americans not to side with the Israelis.
We live in a politically correct time.
Any comment can be misconstrued by the PC police.

 

[tafan2]

It is this sort of “this hatred is worse than other hatred” which is in part promoted by holocaust museums and the like, which really bothers people a great deal. Because the media is so “pushy” about this, it is particularly angering in light of what the Israeli government did last summer, and especially in light of the ongoing persecution of Palestinian people.

For me in my own life, it has been very painful, yet very freeing and humbling, to recognize when I have been in some part responsible for some bad things that happen to me. I remember in particular how much reflection it took to come to the awareness and admit my part of having been fired from a job long ago, when I had previously put the entire blame on my boss.

Have you ever had this happen in your life, where you put the blame for something entirely on someone else, when you eventually painfully admitted that you contributed in some way to your own demise? You don’t have to answer that. In my case, the admission led to a deeper level of understanding/forgiveness of my boss and then I had to turn and understand/forgive myself too. It involves a cognitive empathy.

So this is what happens. There are parties who use the holocaust in a way that says “blame, blame, blame”, which sets up a climate of blame. The parties are very well intended, but they are not understanding how people react. The nationalists are probably not even aware of why, psychologically, they are driven to punish more when these things are put out. Many scientists have studied the phenomenon of how tone is set, how people have emotional memories.

I think you are wanting to condemn my observations. Please quote them in context, and we can discuss. Otherwise, I ask that you try to withhold judgment.

Ok, there it is. The first paragraph is the criticism of the holocaust museums which I referred to. The second two paragraphs are the analogy to your life, how you are partly to blame for some bad things done to you. The last paragraph turns back to talking about the Holocaust and the “blame, blame, blame” statements.

Again, I have summarized the statements accurately every time.

 

[OneSheep]

David Irving, infamous Holocaust denier

Never heard of him. Holocaust denial is ignorance.

He maintains that everyone – including the Jews – is responsible for his own fortune or misfortune.

I would not say this.

The obvious, nagging question then is this: “Do I really want to be associated with Holocaust deniers? If not, why are the arguments I’m offering often given by them, too?”

I am not giving his argument. On the turn-around, Nazis considered an entire ethnicity as evil or dispensable. Would you agree with others, in labeling an entire political movement evil, that its people are evil and dispensable? Are neo-Nazis dispensible, to be destroyed? This is eye-for-an-eye thinking, which I am positive you do not ascribe to.

As for your points here, I’ve absolutely no idea what “the deepest reconciliation is shadow work” means.

Check my responses to niceatheist.

You’re arguing, however poetically, that the Nazis didn’t have a clue about what they were doing?

Yes, they were (are) blind. By not seeing that Jewish people, like all of us, have infinite value, then they have not a clue what they are doing.

God loves and cherishes all of us. To the degree we do not see that, we are also blind.

 

[niceatheist]

Equating a political ideology to an entire ethno-racial group is a horrifying bit of equivocation.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m talking about dehumanizing an entire group of people, regardless the method of grouping.

 

[niceatheist]

Members of a political movement are hardly equivalent to members of an entire race. And really, since no one is talking about herding neo-nazis and sending them to concentration camps or gas chambers, this attempt at equivalency is bizarre, and it makes me wonder why you would want to group two dissimilar things together.

 

[tafan2]

On the turn-around, Nazis considered an entire ethnicity as evil or dispensable. Would you agree with others, in labeling an entire political movement evil, that its people are evil and dispensable? Are neo-Nazis dispensible, to be destroyed? This is eye-for-an-eye thinking, which I am positive you do not ascribe to.

This is beyond bizarre. Who is saying the Nazis are an entire ethnicity? No one.
We are justly condemning the ideology of the Nazis as evil. We are justly saying that those who hold those ideologies are/were participating in evil. We are justly saying they are to be condemned for any actions they take with respect to those ideologies. Are the people themselves to be destroyed? No one has said that. But yes, the entire political movement is evil!!! We are taking no stance one what should happen to neo-Nazis today, beyond the fact they should be ostracized for those beliefs and punished for any criminal acts they take due to those beliefs. As to what happened to Nazis after WWII, that has been finished. Were there possible injustices involved in a few cases? yes, as no system of justice on earth is perfect. Was there just retribution in many cases? yes.
Equating any of this with what happened to the Jews or saying any of it is eye-for-an-eye thinking is outrageous.

 

[tafan2]

this attempt at equivalency is bizarre,

Exact same word I came up with.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

He maintains that everyone – including the Jews – is responsible for his own fortune or misfortune.

I would not say this.

Except you have, and that’s why others here are struggling. There is nothing else that can be made of this:

Have you ever had this happen in your life, where you put the blame for something entirely on someone else, when you eventually painfully admitted that you contributed in some way to your own demise? You don’t have to answer that. In my case, the admission led to a deeper level of understanding/forgiveness of my boss and then I had to turn and understand/forgive myself too. It involves a cognitive empathy.

The obvious, nagging question then is this: “Do I really want to be associated with Holocaust deniers? If not, why are the arguments I’m offering often given by them, too?”

I am not giving his argument. On the turn-around, Nazis considered an entire ethnicity as evil or dispensable. Would you agree with others, in labeling an entire political movement evil, that its people are evil and dispensable? Are neo-Nazis dispensible, to be destroyed? This is eye-for-an-eye thinking, which I am positive you do not ascribe to.

I’m trying to ascertain if this is a serious set of questions… Do I want all Nazis killed? No. Do I want their entire ideology destroyed? Without question. That you’re describing this as on par with the planned destruction of all European Jewry is stunning.

As for your points here, I’ve absolutely no idea what “the deepest reconciliation is shadow work” means.

Check my responses to niceatheist.

Read it. Still haven’t a clue.

You’re arguing, however poetically, that the Nazis didn’t have a clue about what they were doing?

Yes, they were (are) blind. By not seeing that Jewish people, like all of us, have infinite value, then they have not a clue what they are doing.

God loves and cherishes all of us. To the degree we do not see that, we are also blind.

They were blind to the humanity inherent in their victims. And what conclusion should we draw from this? Certainly not pity for the perpetrators.

 

[OneSheep]

Ok, there it is. The first paragraph is the criticism of the holocaust museums which I referred to.

I am criticizing the article, not the museums. The museums have great purpose, I support them. I do understand though, when the holocaust is often mentioned in the media, that this might trigger some resentment from those other groups who have suffered genocide.

I’m not endorsing the resentment, I am understanding it.

Are you ready to address the article?