What is antisemitism?

[gracepoole]

Sure. Check out the governments of Poland and Hungary. Check out the antisemitic protests happening in France.

 

[gracepoole]

The white privilege movement? Is that an organized group?

 

[gracepoole]

Ah, I see now. Thank you for the explanation. I know many white men who are struggling right now.

I don’t believe it has to be a choice between caring about the disenfranchisement of some and not others. Most of the supporters of Black Lives Matter that I know aren’t anti-white.

 

[gracepoole]

I missed that bit by Van Jones. I’m quite pleased I did.

 

[Beryllos]

Check out the governments of Poland and Hungary.

I’m looking. When you said governments, I thought you meant laws and such. So far, skimming search results for antisemitism in Poland, I see reports a few officials mouthing off. Since Trump was elected, incivility is going mainstream. Not that Trump is antisemitic. He just sets the tone, and others riff on it. We need leaders who bring out the best in their people. Leaders who show civility, dignity, and respect.

As for France, they are anti-Muslim too.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

I do firmly believe white people are privileged by nature of race. Same as rich people and men. It’s just a fact of our society.

I do not view BLM as anti-white. I view it as supporting a group that has been discriminated against for years. And as soon as they stand up for their rights and dignity, people flip out

 

[Beryllos]

All the white angst in this thread is killing me.

Kind of like when Beto O’Rourke apologized for saying he was “born” to run for president (because others called him out on white privilege). I just about puked.

 

[Beryllos]

As you can see, I am not white but pale green.

 

[Fauken]

I’m a fuzzy teddy bear!

 

[tafan2]

You strongly suspect that you disapprove of American Nationalism being labeled as racist. Yet you label Zionism as racist. Thin line you seem to be walking.

 

[tafan2]

Agreed, which is why you should not have identified all of Zionism as racist, nor have compared it to the Nazis or the KKK.

You wonder why people don’t like your views on Judaism, it’s not too hard to see the answer.

 

[ltwin]

Yes, there is an objective evil. However, we are called by Jesus to forgive when we hold a person’s actions against their dignity as a human. See Mark 11:25.

Yes, Jesus preached forgiveness. I’m not contradicting him. I have not nor would I ever say that Ilhan Omar should not be forgiven (I’ve only pointed out that she’s made anti-Semitic statements repeatedly and apologized repeatedly, which does not inspire confidence in her sincerity).

But you’re distorting what Jesus taught and how Jesus acted. He forgave, but he also confronted people when they were wrong and called them evil when they actually were evil.

When the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit, Jesus said:

“You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” Matthew 12:34:

Apparently, Jesus was not aware that saying that would offend “their dignity as a human.”

Can you think of a more dehumanizing comment than to say that someone is evil?

Why is that dehumanizing? We were created with free will. It is the most human thing to choose, to judge, to discern. Humans are capable of good and evil. Recognizing that someone has rejected the good by choice is not dehumanizing. It is an affirmation of their humaness and their agency.

 

[ltwin]

Can you see that in order for a person to commit genocide, they must already have the illusion that their victims are disposable? (evil, worthless, etc.) Look at psychopaths. Because they have an empathy disability, they cannot see value in anyone other than themselves.

This is true, but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call out evil when we see it just because we’re afraid others might use our denunciation of evil as an excuse to dehumanize people. Should we remain silent about Hitler’s crimes for fear that people might lash out at German people?

If I say someone is evil, the fruits of my words are judgment and condemnation, not forgiveness.

Some things need to be condemned, so that the gravity of the immorality can be seen. Forgiveness must always be available, but we are called on at times to make a clear distinction between right and wrong and that involves judging the actions of people–not to dehumanize but to educate, to warn and save the offenders if possible.

Jesus said, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged”. Saying that someone is evil is a judgment, right? Even saying someone is antisemitic is a judgment. However, saying that a statement is antisemitic is an observation, or maybe a description.

Jesus isn’t actually saying that we are never to judge–ever. What kind of world would we live in if Christians were never capable of judging others without sinning? We would literally be unable to hold any position of authority.

What Jesus really meant is suggested by the second verse, “For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.” James continues the same line of thinking: “So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment” James 2:12-13.

As Christians, we are specifically commanded in Scripture to judge the immoral within the church, “Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. ‘Purge the evil person from among you’” 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Once again, a biblical writer calls people evil. They must have missed the memo.

Yes, forgiveness is received, but if we withhold forgiveness, we will not experience that from God.

Let me get this straight. Just because I discern that Hitler is evil because of his actions, I am somehow holding his actions against him and am therefore guilty of unforgiveness? Is that your argument?

 

[OneSheep]

I provided it earlier in the thread. Antisemitism is hatred of Jews, often resulting in violence against them.

Since the word “Semite” includes Arabs and Assyrians, it is curious as to how the word came about. It originates in 19th century Germany. It does seem that it is a bigotry that our media and society has a keen focus on, given the holocaust, and given that there may still be some envy involved, which another poster brought up.

Do you think that perhaps some territorial/envy issues fuel this particular bigotry?

All racial, ethnic, religious, tribal, etc., hatred and violence are bad. Why do we have a special category for Jews?

What would be your answer to that question?

 

[gracepoole]

The word antisemitism is now formatted as I’ve formatted it here by many scholars precisely because it’s a made-up term with no scientific value. Identifying people as “Semites” and capitalizing it gives it credence where none should be given, hence the shift away from “anti-Semitism.” Of course, as with all language there is denotation and connotation. And the connotation of the term continues to be anti-Jew.

As for why there is a term specifically for anti-Judaism, I offered a link earlier to an explanation of the term “the longest hatred” for this reason.

 

[OneSheep]

It is. But as GospelofMatthew said, antisemitism is experiencing a resurgence currently. See the link shared earlier in this thread:

I read the article, which was pretty good. It did make some reference to the bigotry being fueled by what is happening in Israel/Palestine. I would have liked to see them expand on that a little. For example, there is something to be said for “ye reap what ye sow”, and the Netanyahu government made some pretty significant changes in the last 10 months and has made some very provocative comments. It is awful that some far-right people have reacted to those comments, perhaps, and “taken it out” on the local Jewish people, people who may very well also object to Netanyahu’s stances.

As for why there is a term specifically for anti-Judaism, I offered a link earlier to an explanation of the term “the longest hatred” for this reason.

It is this sort of “this hatred is worse than other hatred” which is in part promoted by holocaust museums and the like, which really bothers people a great deal. Because the media is so “pushy” about this, it is particularly angering in light of what the Israeli government did last summer, and especially in light of the ongoing persecution of Palestinian people.

For me in my own life, it has been very painful, yet very freeing and humbling, to recognize when I have been in some part responsible for some bad things that happen to me. I remember in particular how much reflection it took to come to the awareness and admit my part of having been fired from a job long ago, when I had previously put the entire blame on my boss.

Have you ever had this happen in your life, where you put the blame for something entirely on someone else, when you eventually painfully admitted that you contributed in some way to your own demise? You don’t have to answer that. In my case, the admission led to a deeper level of understanding/forgiveness of my boss and then I had to turn and understand/forgive myself too. It involves a cognitive empathy.

So this is what happens. There are parties who use the holocaust in a way that says “blame, blame, blame”, which sets up a climate of blame. The parties are very well intended, but they are not understanding how people react. The nationalists are probably not even aware of why, psychologically, they are driven to punish more when these things are put out. Many scientists have studied the phenomenon of how tone is set, how people have emotional memories.

If I set a tone of reconciliation, I will create a climate of reconciliation. If I set a tone of blame, I will create a climate of blame. If we are truly trying to create the Kingdom, we need to stop emphasizing the “evil Nazis” and start talking about understanding and forgiveness.

Are you familiar with the story of Eva Kor?

 

[Beryllos]

Beryllos:

All racial, ethnic, religious, tribal, etc., hatred and violence are bad. Why do we have a special category for Jews?

What would be your answer to that question?

Politics, media, and collective guilt.

Nevertheless, the word antisemitism can be a useful shorthand. The word carries many associations and communicates succinctly.

It is also powerful. The charge of antisemitism delivers a heavy payload, and people know this. It works well to discredit the opposition and win the argument. Often, however, a lesser accusation would be more accurate, and would better serve justice and promote peace.

 

[OneSheep]

How can good people fight evil in world? I don’t think much will be accomplished by laws and penalties, nor by studying evil, nor by guilt tripping. We change the world by loving the sinner as a fellow human being…

Yes, I agree! And then, it is not a “fight” at all is it?

As Christians we have a duty to protect our fellow brothers and sisters, we must defend our Jewish neighbors. They are our foundation, they are one with us

I agree, but I think that effort today also needs to go deeper, to the roots of the problem. Our theology and anthropology need to be more inclusive and less judgmental. We all need to stop blaming (judging) and start understanding and forgiving. A stance of protection is good and well-intended, but it tends to lead to “the opposition” also going into protection mode; they are protecting ideologies and territories. Antisemitism is not in itself an ideology, it is rooted in natural ingroup/outgroup thinking, natural envy, and natural territorial impulses among other things. All bigotry, including my own, have had these at their core.

If you read the article that Grace posted, you can find out that that is not the case.

 

[gracepoole]

I read the article, which was pretty good. It did make some reference to the bigotry being fueled by what is happening in Israel/Palestine. I would have liked to see them expand on that a little. For example, there is something to be said for “ye reap what ye sow”, and the Netanyahu government made some pretty significant changes in the last 10 months and has made some very provocative comments. It is awful that some far-right people have reacted to those comments, perhaps, and “taken it out” on the local Jewish people, people who may very well also object to Netanyahu’s stances.

The history of antisemitism extends far further back than contemporary Israel/Palestine conflict. It would be a mistake to read the term only in light of what’s happening there.

It is this sort of “this hatred is worse than other hatred” which is in part promoted by holocaust museums and the like, which really bothers people a great deal.

Respectfully, this is a tragic mischaracterization. Holocaust museums “and the like” honor and remember Holocaust victims and warn about the potential for genocide to occur again (as it has many times). The first Holocaust memorials and memoirs were created by Jews who demanded that people remember when the world wanted to move on and forget. I’ve been working in this field for decades and I know of no reputable source that claims “this hatred is worse than other hatred.”

Because the media is so “pushy” about this, it is particularly angering in light of what the Israeli government did last summer, and especially in light of the ongoing persecution of Palestinian people.

Again, this is what I bemoaned earlier in the thread: a conflation of antisemitism and the Israel/Palestine conflict.

For me in my own life, it has been very painful, yet very freeing and humbling, to recognize when I have been in some part responsible for some bad things that happen to me.

Is it your contention that Jews are in some way responsible for antisemitism heaped on them?

So this is what happens. There are parties who use the holocaust in a way that says “blame, blame, blame”, which sets up a climate of blame.

Any specific examples you want to cite?

If I set a tone of reconciliation, I will create a climate of reconciliation. If I set a tone of blame, I will create a climate of blame. If we are truly trying to create the Kingdom, we need to stop emphasizing the “evil Nazis” and start talking about understanding and forgiveness.

What’s needed is an understanding that all of us can become Nazis – all of us can become perpetrators. Studying the Holocaust and other genocides can help demonstrate this.

Are you familiar with the story of Eva Kor?

I know Eva Kor.

 

[niceatheist]

The word antisemitism is now formatted as I’ve formatted it here by many scholars precisely because it’s a made-up term with no scientific value. Identifying people as “Semites” and capitalizing it gives it credence where none should be given, hence the shift away from “anti-Semitism.” Of course, as with all language there is denotation and connotation. And the connotation of the term continues to be anti-Jew.

As for why there is a term specifically for anti-Judaism, I offered a link earlier to an explanation of the term “the longest hatred” for this reason.

“Semite” still has some utility in linguistics, archaeology and sociology, but the attempts by some to argue against the utility of the term because of the historical and scholarly use of the term is a pretty classic example of the etymological fallacy.