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anon1212376
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This we can agree on. I have heard Jews say they didn’t get the memo about the vast Jewish conspiracy. 
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HopkinsReb
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That is not antisemitic, no. But to generalize that to “the Jews are doing such-and-such” is antisemitic.
That’s not what “begging the question” means. Perhaps you mean that it raises the question.
If you’re not suggesting a conspiracy, what are you suggesting? If you think “the Jews” have too much influence, how do you think they got it and how do you suggest knocking them down a peg? Why do you get to decide what constitutes the right amount of influence per ethnic group?
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tafan2
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As another poster has stated, criticizing Jews as a group is certainly anti-Semitic.
As to the state of Israel, criticizing it’s policies is not anti-Semitic. Criticizing it’s right to exist or the need for it to exist is most certainly anti-Semitic. One cannot look at the history of how Jews have been treated throughout the world and throughout the centuries and not believe they need a homeland, a safe refuge to seek safety, when inevitably they will strongly persecuted in any given place. Please do not try to tell me we humans have progressed beyond this. If there have been no serious persecutions of Jews in two or three hundred years, I might be convinced.
As to people who are pointing out the “fact” that Jews are over represented in positions of power and influence, you are walking a fine line, IMO.
As to people who compare the history of Jewish persecution with many other ethnic groups, you are either ignorant of history or are likewise walking an even finer line, or both.
As to the state of Israel, criticizing it’s policies is not anti-Semitic. Criticizing it’s right to exist or the need for it to exist is most certainly anti-Semitic. One cannot look at the history of how Jews have been treated throughout the world and throughout the centuries and not believe they need a homeland, a safe refuge to seek safety, when inevitably they will strongly persecuted in any given place. Please do not try to tell me we humans have progressed beyond this. If there have been no serious persecutions of Jews in two or three hundred years, I might be convinced.
As to people who are pointing out the “fact” that Jews are over represented in positions of power and influence, you are walking a fine line, IMO.
As to people who compare the history of Jewish persecution with many other ethnic groups, you are either ignorant of history or are likewise walking an even finer line, or both.
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Saxum
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Criticising any group is anti-group. However, the label ‘anti-semite’ carries far more stigma.
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anon1212376
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Which raises another question: Why are Jews so vehemently hated? Is it simply because they are different, or are they doing something to attract ire?
(Again, I am playing Devil’s Advocate here.)
(Again, I am playing Devil’s Advocate here.)
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tafan2
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@anon1212376
It’s an interesting question. I do not know the answer. A lot of (legitimate, IMO) criticism has been leveled at Christianity. But we have learned in the past 150 years that it is by no means defined by religion. First in the enlightened, anti-cleric Third Republic of France, then in Nazi Germany, then in the USSR. So religion is not the whole answer.
For centuries, they were always viewed as outsiders. This was driven both by non-jewish authorities and by their desire to maintain their own culture in dispora. But in the late 19th century in France and Germany they became much more integrated with society at large, yet the problem persisted.
I think it often starts with people saying they “have to much influence” and then a society hits a snag and people need a scapegoat. This is a huge danger today in Western countries, hence my “fine line” above.
But overall, I do not know. It is completely unjustified. But it never ceases.
It’s an interesting question. I do not know the answer. A lot of (legitimate, IMO) criticism has been leveled at Christianity. But we have learned in the past 150 years that it is by no means defined by religion. First in the enlightened, anti-cleric Third Republic of France, then in Nazi Germany, then in the USSR. So religion is not the whole answer.
For centuries, they were always viewed as outsiders. This was driven both by non-jewish authorities and by their desire to maintain their own culture in dispora. But in the late 19th century in France and Germany they became much more integrated with society at large, yet the problem persisted.
I think it often starts with people saying they “have to much influence” and then a society hits a snag and people need a scapegoat. This is a huge danger today in Western countries, hence my “fine line” above.
But overall, I do not know. It is completely unjustified. But it never ceases.
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tafan2
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It should carry the stigma of bigotry. It seems like it would with respect to any ethnic group. If the stigma is greater with the Jews, perhaps that is because the danger is greater.
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tafan2
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I would also recommend Paul Johnson’s book, The History of the Jews for insight into the problem. And because it is a fascinating read.
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gracepoole
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It’s called the longest hatred for a reason.tafan2:
Criticising any group is anti-group. However, the label ‘anti-semite’ carries far more stigma.
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gracepoole
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Just playing Devil’s Advocate, eh…
Regardless, you might ask the same question of any group that’s hated. Why are Catholics so vehemently hated? Are they doing something to attract ire?
You might consider:
- Jews believe in a monotheistic God and they did so when it was extremely unpopular
- Jews have unique rituals and customs that people outside the group are not brought into
- Despite centuries of oppression and abuse, many Jews have managed to become educated and successful in a variety of professions
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Saxum
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I’m not sure the danger is greater in this day and age. However, nobody can deny that the danger was greater in previous ages. Times have, thankfully, changed.
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gracepoole
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It’s also worth noting that when Christians were barred from the practice of usury, and Jews were barred from MANY professions by Christians, they took up one of the only professions left to them: usury. This had the unfortunate consequent of aligning them with money in the minds of many and, sadly, they were put in the place of the pawnbroker, whose livelihood depends on not giving customers full value for various objects (especially those of sentimental value).
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gracepoole
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What makes you think this?tafan2:
I’m not sure the danger is greater in this day and age. However, nobody can deny that the danger was greater in previous ages. Times have, thankfully, changed.
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gracepoole
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And you found this via what source?
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Saxum
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I can only speak about my experience; and in my experience, I’ve never heard anybody utter an anti-semitic remark. I think most people are conscious of the Holocaust and would never tolerate hatred towards the Jews.
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anon1212376
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gracepoole
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While I am thankful that in your corner of the world antisemitism is not a pronounced problem, unfortunately that’s not the case for many other areas.gracepoole:
I can only speak about my experience; and in my experience, I’ve never heard anybody utter an anti-semitic remark. I think most people are conscious of the Holocaust and would never tolerate hatred towards the Jews.
Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe, latest figures show
France reports 74% rise in offences against Jews and Germany records 60% surge in violent attacks
www.theguardian.com
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gracepoole
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Conspiracy theories do not demand to be refuted.
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tafan2
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As I said above, I am by no means convinced. Even ignoring Muslim countries today, one only has to go back 40 years to find a major persecution in communist countries (despite Jewish people being some of the “founding fathers” of communism).
There is danger today. Certainly some of the statements made by leftist politicians in Europe go beyond simple criticism of Israeli policies. To say nothing of far right and neo-Nazi groups.
Like I said, if in two hundred years in the future nothing has happened, I might be convinced.
There is danger today. Certainly some of the statements made by leftist politicians in Europe go beyond simple criticism of Israeli policies. To say nothing of far right and neo-Nazi groups.
Like I said, if in two hundred years in the future nothing has happened, I might be convinced.
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Saxum
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This information is shocking and deeply worrying.
Why won’t people just leave the Jews alone? I live near a Jewish community and they’re as good as gold. Everybody likes them because they mind their own business and cause no trouble for anybody. They’re perfect neighbours. The only people who seem to have an issue with them are some Muslims.
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