What is Christ's Church?

[ALLFORHIM]

You know many people spend more time preparing to take a trip in the summer than they do on preparing for eternity in there life time,and sadly many of these are professed Christians.

You just reminded me I have to book a hotel for vacation. Has anyone ever been to Virginia Beach can you reccomend a hotel?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy Carson;1827867:

Okay.

The church Jesus established was based on anyone who believed in Him and turned from sin and followed Christ. That person can be sitting in any pew/chair around the world

Above I gave you what a member of the church must believe. It really is that simple Us humans reall like making things difficult for ourselves, maybe that is why God made it so simple. Although, obeying God is difficult.

Yes and the unity is what I mentioned above.

So, as I understand what you’re saying, as long as someone believes in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, then they are a member of the one “invisible, spiritual” church of God - regardless of what denomination or faith community they belong to and attend. Is that correct?

 

[mikeledes]

The church is both visible and spiritual. Jesus established an organized community (i.e. leadership, teachers, etc.), not just a loose fellowship of believers.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Blue_Serenity]

The church is both visible and spiritual. Jesus established an organized community (i.e. leadership, teachers, etc.), not just a loose fellowship of believers.

God Bless,
Michael

Of course he did. How else would you explain Jesus using Peter to start His Church?

 

[I_Leatherman]

Ok…since we are all agreed that all you christians were Catholic at some past time, and that the Catholic Church ‘saved’ your souls then - what can it mean?
Firstly it means that the Catholic Church is True - because it works - your souls can and have been saved by the Catholic Church.
Secondly - if the Catholic Church is the True Church, it follows that it is God’s, Christ’s Church.
My conclusion is that everyone here agrees with that - but that some like Christs Church - some don’t like Christs Church - and some don’t care one way or the other.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Ok…since we are all agreed that all you christians were Catholic at some past time

 

[I_Leatherman]

I think I have to repeat: The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.

Which is why it is so difficult to understand people who want another Christ’s church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I think I have to repeat: The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.

Which is why it is so difficult to understand people who want another Christ’s church.

I think it is one of those things we have to agree to disagree on and leave it at that.

 

[rciadan]

All For Him:

Sorry that I cut off your comment I dont understand how you think those scriptures do not support my statement, unless of course I worded things wrong(which is possible)

You wanted to know where in Scripture it says that the Holy Spirit Dwells in us–right? Those passages do answer that question.

I’ll wait till you have time:thumbsup:

Apology accepted and one apology offered. I was not perfectly clear as to those statements not supporting your statement.
I know where in scripture it speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and I believe it with all my heart. As far as that goes there is no debate.
I want to know where in scripture it says specifically that the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in "The Church’.
What I am referring to is the second part of your statement: namely that the Holy Ghost cannot indwell an “Institution”. (again, this is your word, not mine, I don’t think of the Church as institutional; but rather, Communional (is that a word?)).
None of the passages you cited support this belief.

 

[rciadan]

Leatherman,
I must disagree with your statement about the Church saving people and I think the Church would disagree as well.
Tis Jesus the Christ who saves souls. The role of the Church as the Bride of Christ *is to bring souls to Jesus so that they might be saved, *and to “be Jesus” in the Sacraments. Jesus is the only Savior.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Leatherman,
I must disagree with your statement about the Church saving people and I think the Church would disagree as well.
Tis Jesus the Christ who saves souls. The role of the Church as the Bride of Christ *is to bring souls to Jesus so that they might be saved, *and to “be Jesus” in the Sacraments. Jesus is the only Savior.

The context was an imaginary situation in the year 1401 A.D.
There was no other ‘Christian Church’ in existance.
So, if a person was ‘saved’ in the ordinary way it was only through the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church ‘saves’ in that sense.

 

[KathleenElsie]

But isn’t the whole point of having a denomination, in the first place, to reject what came before?

It’s not as if people create denominations out of friendship and love for the church that they are splitting away from. Normally, it’s because they hate the teachings they’ve been given in their old church, and they want to come up with new ones that they like better. “Inspired by the Holy Spirit” of course - but either there are 60,000 Holy Spirits, or else the Holy Spirit has a learning disorder of some kind, with all the contradictions in doctrine between all the different denominations.

Thank you well said.

 

[KathleenElsie]

That’s where you turn to a church family to help you.
A good church will have good leadership that serves the congregation and educates them in the Truth, according to Scripture.

You just described the Catholic Church. Only we don’t limit our teaching and care for others to one small denomination or local congregation.:nope: We teach that others have hope.

 

[rciadan]

The context was an imaginary situation in the year 1401 A.D.
There was no other ‘Christian Church’ in existance.
So, if a person was ‘saved’ in the ordinary way it was only through the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church ‘saves’ in that sense.

I’ll buy that; but, I am learning quickly that, especially when discussing with Protestants, that one must be very clear and concise or they will attempt to get involved with “distinctions” such as “who is the one who actually does the saving” and never really address the main point you were making! In this case: Where were all these other “churches” for the first 1500 years of Christianity?
Every one must go through the Son to get to the Father, and eveyone must go to the Church to get to the True Son.

 

[Janet_S]

I know. It’s also the largest religious sect in the world.
I just don’t believe that Jesus would want to build a physical church. When he speaks in the Bible, he speaks of more of a spiritual church, a way to unite humanity. Hence, that’s why we have Christianity.
Catholic means “universal” and the term “Catholic Church” wasn’t coined into phrase until somewhere between 200 and 300 A.D… If the Catholic Church was “THE” Church that all of humanity should belong to, it would have been specifically stated in the Biblical writings, especially since the Bible was composed by the CC.
Since it does not specify, we are left to our conscience to decide. A well-informed conscience will lead someone to the Truth.
Remember, I am a Catholic just like you. I’m not trying to attack the CC or Protestants.

Mrs Abbott, you are a Catholic who thinks like a Protestant, and I realize there are many Catholics like you. This idea of a spiritual Church uniting true believers is a novel idea, you won’t find any ECF that believed this about the Church. Also, the idea that “if it’s not in the Bible, we are left to our own conscience to decide” is very Protestant. Where in the Bible does it say that only those things found in the Bible are binding on a Christian? It doesn’t say that anywhere in the Bible, this is an idea from Luther.

However, the Catholic Church does believe that non-Catholic Christians are united to the Church. Here is an article about "
NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. This article refers to the ECF’s as well as to the Documents of Vatican II:

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT

Also, the ECF’s call the Church the “Catholic Church” before AD 200 when you claim “the phrase was coined.” I found this quote from Ignatius of Antioch, but I doubt he was the first one to call it the Catholic Church. He obviously believed the people reading his his letter would understand what he meant when he said the “Catholic Church.”

“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.”
(AD 165, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans)

newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

A few more points:
–We must work and pray for Christian unity since this is the very prayer of Christ Himself (John 17). Who know how many Christian denominations there actually are (maybe 30,000), but look in your local yellow pages under “Churches,” and you will get an idea of the problem at hand. Our division in the body of Christ is a scandal. How will the unbelieving world come to accept the Gospel when we can’t agree among ourselves what we believe?

–Where can we find the Church today that has continuity with the primitive Church? No doubt about it, it is the Catholic Church.

–I know there are many Protestants who convert to Catholicism and many Catholics who convert to Protestantism. The traffic is two ways, but there is a difference in the reasons for conversion as follows:

Catholic converts–Many Catholic converts (former zealous Bible-believing Protestants who loved their faith) say they are convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church when they study Church history and and read the ECF’s. They come into full communion with the Catholic Church often reluctantly and at a great personal loss (loss of friends, loss of job if they had been clergy, etc).

Protestant converts–I know of no case where a Protestant convert (former orthodox Catholic who knows and loves his faith) says he is convinced that a Protestant Church is the true Church when he studies Church history and reads the ECF’s. If anyone know of a case, please let me know. People usually leave the Catholic Church for other reasons, not because they discover that they find the “true Church” somewhere else.

Finally, a famous quote from John Henry Newman, a former Anglican who converted to the Catholic Church after many years of studying the ECF’s and translating many of their writings:

“Bold outllines, which cannot be disregarded, rise out of the records of the past, when we look to see what it will give up to us: they may be dim, they may be incomplete, but they are definite:–there is that which they are not, which they cannot be. Whatever be historical Christianity, it is not Protestantism. If there were a save truth, it is this.” (Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Apology accepted and one apology offered. I was not perfectly clear as to those statements not supporting your statement.
I know where in scripture it speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and I believe it with all my heart. As far as that goes there is no debate.

Hi,
Thank you for clarifying and of course I would accept your apology but none is needed.

I want to know where in scripture it says specifically that the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in "The Church’.

Now I get what you mean. Honestly I will have to do some research so if you will allow me some time to get back to you. (

Communional (is that a word?)).

I have no idea Honestly whatever you want to call it is fine with me.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Only we don’t limit our teaching and care for others to one small denomination or local congregation.:nope: We teach that others have hope.

Hi, Im a little confused by your statement here could you elaborate for me.

Im not sure if you were implying that small churches dont help people outside their own church

What exactly do you mean by the last staement you made? Im sorry I guess it is too vague for me

Thank you

 

[KathleenElsie]

I think I have to repeat: The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.

Which is why it is so difficult to understand people who want another Christ’s church.

Christ did not create confusion with many denominations but unity with ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH.:yup:

 

[KathleenElsie]

Hi, Im a little confused by your statement here could you elaborate for me.

Im not sure if you were implying that small churches dont help people outside their own church In the many small churches that I have had the chance to visit they tended to care for their small insular group,(small schools in the basement etc) I will go as far as to say that there have been two or three small denominational buildings in
walking distance. (In one case they almost rouched one with people of color and one white) Their pastors teach and confort their own and did not reach out to the other churches in the area. It tended to be “oh those other people”
What exactly do you mean by the last staement you made? Im sorry I guess it is too vague for me

Thank you

Hope that halped

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hope that halped

Hi,

Yes that helped I completely understand what you are saying. There are many churches out there like. Even the catholic churches in my area are like that. It is probably because I live in an area that has been coined as not friendly. We’re not all like that though:thumbsup: There are some nice people

That is why when I visited my church 3 years ago I just loved that they had all these community activities. We have just expanded our building and beside the fact that we were growing as a congregation, the other purpose was to expand on reaching out to the community. When people ask me what church I go to and I tell them, they are like" Oh is that the church that has---------"

I guess it probably depends on who is willinging to step up and volunteer and run ministries. I recently stepped up to become the coordinator of the homeless ministry within our church. That is the other thing I like about my church family is that almost everyone in the church is involved in some ministry. You know how you get the same 20% that does all the work. I have to say that doesnt happen here.

The goal of our church is to Spread the Good News and with the help of God we are able to do it pretty well, especially among the youth.