What is Church's official position on the Jews?

[alfredo]

“But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ…the Son of God is God and man…– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
OK, the Church also teaches about baptism of desire,

The quote from the Pope, does not mention baptism.
Also we have the preVatican II Good Friday prayer:
Good Friday Prayer of the Catholic Church for the Jews: “Let us pray, also, for the unfaithful Jews, that our Lord and God may take away the veil from their hearts, so that they, too, may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord.
Contrast this with the post Vatican II Good Friday prayer:
Prayer for the Jewish People: “Let us pray for the Jewish People, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.”
How then can it be maintained that “the Church has not changed its stance at all” ? Hasn’t the Church taken a softer stand toward the Jews after Vatican II? If not, then why do we see so many articles from Jewish rabbis praising the pontificate of our beloved Pope John Paul II?

 

[Ghosty]

It’s also important to remember that Jews believe that our covenant is salvatory. Most Jews believe that the Messiah will be a mortal man who will be a great political leader. It’s commonly believed that he will free the Jewish people from the threat of their enemies and show the world that Judaism is the only true religion, and people all over the world will take up the Jewish faith.

Hmm, perhaps some explaination it in order. The Catholic Church doesn’t really consider the Hebrew Covenant and the Christian Covenant seperate at all, and that might be where some confusion is here. Yes, Jews consider their Covenant salvatory, in that they hope for the Messiah, but the Messiah has not yet come from their perspective. Christianity, on the other hand, is the Covenant that the Messiah made with all people, inviting them into the Hebrew Covenant in a unique way (what Paul calls “the ingrafting of the wild olive branches”).

What is fundamentally being said is that the Salvation that the Jews anticipate is already present, and is in the form of the universal Christian Covenant, the fruit of the tree that is the Hebrew Covenant. The religious Jews today are still waiting for the fruit, and therefore can not be said to have Salvation directly, whereas the Christians (believing themselves the fulfillment, not replacement, of the Hebrew Covenant) believe that only the complete Hebrew Covenant (the Catholic Church) is true Salvation. This is made espescially clear by the testimony of Jewish “converts” (such as Edith Stein, and Israel Zolli) who state that they’ve never once felt like they converted at all, but rather recognized the Hebrew Messiah, and therefore completed their Jewish faith and Covenant. From a Christian point of view (and in a blunt but loving tongue-in-cheek way) we could say “Of course Jews believe that their Covenant is salvatory, because they believe it will lead to Christianity!”

From a Catholic perspective, when Jews speak of “the Kingdom to Come”, they are actually speaking about the Catholic Church without realizing it. In ancient Jewish tradition the period of the Messiah is actually an extended time, and is not itself “the end” of Glorification, but rather the last extended step in the process. This period can even “outlive” the Messiah, as there is no clear seperation given between the Messianic time and the time of complete glorification. The Catholic Church teaches the exact same thing, that we are currently living in the Messianic Age (Ano Domini, A.D., the Year of our Lord) and that the “Second Coming” will be the end of the Messianic Age, and indeed the end of all ages of the world as we understand it. The major differences are that the Messianic Age and the final “success” of God are somewhat blurred together in modern Judaism, whereas in Christianity (largely because we take Jesus as the reference point) we have a much more clear deliniation between the Messianic Age and the final Glory of God when the Messiah returns to end His age.

This is of course from a Catholic perspective, and is in no way meant to offend any Jewish sensibilities.

However, I have a hard time with a Christian of any branch saying that a Jew is not saved. Most Jews I know love G-d and honor Him alot more than most Christians I’ve encountered. And we are not ignorant, either.

Loving and honoring God are indeed important, but how important would you say it is to love and honor God the way God intends? Orthodox Jews do not accept Reform Jews who say “We will honor God in our way, and you can honor Him in yours.” If Jesus is the Messiah, don’t you think that God would want His people, the Jews, to honor Him? Do you think God would say “It’s ok, you can honor me in your way, and the Gentiles can honor the Messiah.” Of course not! Such a notion is preposterous! Therefore, from the perspective of those Jews and Gentiles who believe Jesus is the Messiah, Jews who love and honor God but reject the Messiah are not completely loving and honoring God, though they may not even realize it and may be innocent of their mistake. This is where ignorance comes in. Ignorance is not really such a bad thing in this context, and it certainly doesn’t imply stupidity. It is simply saying that modern Jews are ignorant of the identity of the Messiah. If you knew that, say, Rambam was the Messiah, and I didn’t know, couldn’t you say I was ignorant of the Messiah’s identity? That is all that was being said. Nobody ever said that Jews are an ignorant people, only that they are ignorant to the identity of the Messiah, which is perfectly fair and valid from a Christian point of view.

Wouldn’t you, as a Jew, say that certain non-Jewish cultures that practice immoral things are ignorant of the Noahide Laws?

continued…

 

[Ghosty]

It’s true that most Christians are painfully unfamiliar with Judaism, but most are FAR more familiar with Judaism than Jews are with Christianity, simply because Judaism, and the Hebrew Covenant, is at the very heart of Christianity. We honor Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, we believe in the Covenant brought down from Mount Sinai by Moses. We celebrate the Passover, the Levitical Laws are written in our Scriptures too, and we commemorate the time of the First and Second Temple. Every single Christian is intimately familiar with Jewish Scripture (it is our Scripture too), can you say the same of Jews with regards to Christian Scripture? Now this isn’t to say that Christians are in any way well informed about Judaism; most of the intricacies are things we are completely ignorant of. I will say, however, that our exposure to the core of Judaism is likely far deeper than you give us credit for.

We are not simply some random Gentile faith that grabbed elements of Judaism, we are a very real growth of Judaism propogated by faithful Jews who believed that the Messianic Age had indeed arrived, and we are keeping to our duties to the Messiah. Now whether the Messianic Age has indeed arrived is something we can debate and disagree on (for now, at least, for the time will come when the issue is settled by God ), but to deny that Christianity is an earnest attempt by Jews to work within the Messianic Era is to gravely miss the testimony of history.

I should mention that I was an atheist who came to believe in God through the testimony of Orthodox Judaism, and sought to convert to Judaism until I came to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah. My coming into the Catholic Church is due completely to my conviction that the Church is Judaism in the Messianic Era, and I’d be happy to discuss my reasoning for this with you further. I also heartily recommend “Salvation Is From The Jews” by Roy Shoeman, a Catholic Jew. This book had not yet been published by the time I converted to Catholicism, but it mirrors my sentiments exactly. If you want to see exactly why I say the Catholic Church grows from Judaism, and is indeed a direct part of the Hebrew Covenant, that book is an excellent place to start.

With all that being said, I hope your study is fruitful and that it brings you closer to an understanding of the God we both love and worship. Peace be with you, and may God bless you in your endeavors. I hope I didn’t come across as too harsh in my first post to you. I’m a bit tired, and frustrated with a certain other poster on this topic, and much of my heat in this thread is actually meant to witness to him and not you. Again, God bless!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

alfredo:

The quote from the Pope, does not mention baptism.
Also we have the preVatican II Good Friday prayer:
Good Friday Prayer of the Catholic Church for the Jews: “Let us pray, also, for the unfaithful Jews, that our Lord and God may take away the veil from their hearts, so that they, too, may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord.
Contrast this with the post Vatican II Good Friday prayer:
Prayer for the Jewish People: “Let us pray for the Jewish People, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.”
How then can it be maintained that “the Church has not changed its stance at all” ? Hasn’t the Church taken a softer stand toward the Jews after Vatican II? If not, then why do we see so many articles from Jewish rabbis praising the pontificate of our beloved Pope John Paul II?

I think it’s great that so many rabbis have praised John Paul II. He reached out not only to the Jewish people, but to the world at large. I think that so many rabbis praised him and honored him because he did so much to bridge the gap between different religions and people groups. He did much to repair Catholic/Jewish relations, and even apologized for various wrongs that the Church commited regarding the Jews at different times thorughout the centuries.

 

[Ghosty]

Good Friday Prayer of the Catholic Church for the Jews: “Let us pray, also, for the unfaithful Jews, that our Lord and God may take away the veil from their hearts, so that they, too, may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord.

and

Prayer for the Jewish People: “Let us pray for the Jewish People, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.”

Are saying the EXACT same thing, but the latter is more diplomatic. The second prayer MUST be understood in the context of the eternal Catholic teaching that full recognition of God is equal to full recognition of Jesus as the Messiah. “Growing in faithfulness” is a direct reference to them coming to accept Jesus as the Messiah, and therefore give complete faithfulness to God, as they are currently unfaithful with regards to the Messiah.

Alfredo, you are so caught up with the externals that you are ignoring the underlying teaching of the Church. The Church has NEVER said that Jesus is not the Messiah, has NEVER said that Jesus did not come for the Jews, and WILL NEVER change that stance. The prayers we offer must ALWAYS be understood in that context. So we’ve begun treating the Jews as our seperated elder brothers rather than as villains in some cartoon. That’s a GOOD thing!

Did Joseph bring his brothers back to him by disparaging them and casting stones at them? NO! He longed for them after he’d been sold into slavery in Egypt, and wept for joy when they returned and he could be with them again. Joseph’s elder brothers made a human mistake, perhaps guided by God who had put a veil over THEIR hearts so that His greater plan could come to fruition. Joseph treated them with love even as he brought them to him. The Church has not given up on trying to bring the Jews into the fullness of their Covenant, a Covenant that we Gentiles are merely eating the dropped crumbs from (remember what the Samaritan woman said to Jesus).

We are enjoying a feast due to the labor of the Jews in bringing about the Messiah, and the guests of honor have not yet arrived. That is something to be grieved over, not a reason to cast dispersions at them. We must continue to invite, and we must be inviting, for the guests of honor, and hosts, of the feast will not come to the table if we are cursing and berating them. Why should they? The Church prays every day for the Jews to return out of faithfulness to God, and that’s exactly as it should be. Unfortunately in the past we have been far more cruel than inviting, and we’ve served to harden their hearts against us more. Remember, it was John Paul II, in death, who brought Jews of the world, including Jewish leaders, to be present at a Catholic Mass, the feast of the Messiah and of God. Do you think that would have been possible if he had been as harsh as you recommend?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

With all that being said, I hope your study is fruitful and that it brings you closer to an understanding of the God we both love and worship. Peace be with you, and may God bless you in your endeavors. I hope I didn’t come across as too harsh in my first post to you. I’m a bit tired, and frustrated with a certain other poster on this topic, and much of my heat in this thread is actually meant to witness to him and not you. Again, God bless!

Yes, all this comes form a Catholic point of view. How do you know the Catholic point of view is the right view? Yes, the Scriptures did come form the Jewish people, so how can a Gentile say that Jews are not saved? And I disagree with you strongly, most Christians are definitely not familiar with Judaism; they are familiar with Christian teachings regarding the “Old Testament.”
I’m not even sure if I could make a Gentile understand exactly why Jews find it so insulting to be evangelized by Christians, but I’ll try.
For Jews, our religion and our identity are one. They really are inseparable for a majority of the world’s Jews. To convert to Christianity is to lose your Jewish identity. I had relatives who died in the concentration camps in WWII. They died for Judaism, they died for G-d. They died for being Jews. And they are with G-d today. You have no idea what it does to me to contemplate leaving the Jewish faith, the pain and turmoil it creates inside me.
The TANAKH is a Jewish book, given to Jews by G-d. I’m still not convinced that a non-Jew can tell a Jew what it means. The idea seems preposterous to me. It would be like a Jew explaining the gospels to a Christian.
Yes, your post was harsh. If you have an issue with another poster, reply to that poster,a nd not to me. I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

So we’ve begun treating the Jews as our seperated elder brothers rather than as villains in some cartoon. That’s a GOOD thing!

I for one appreciate this alot. Would you believe that I’ve actually been called a “Jesus killer?” I have, and by Christians. I can’t beleive that in the year 2005, this mentality exists.
Hitler claimed to be a Christian, yet I’ve never callled Christians “Jew killers.”

 

[Ghosty]

Yes, the Scriptures did come form the Jewish people, so how can a Gentile say that Jews are not saved?

The Scriptures point to the Messiah who will save all people. The Christians believe with absolute faith that this Jewish Messiah was Jesus. Therefore, Modern Jews reject their own Messiah, their own Salvation. It’s really very simple logic. Remember, Christians do not consider themselves to be “Gentiles” in the sense that we are seperate from the Covenant of God; the Messiah brings a universal Covenant to humanity according to Jewish understanding. Did you know that the Early Church called non-Christians Gentiles?

That being said, the Church simply says that all Jews who are saved are saved through the Messiah Jesus, and leaves it at that. We have many different beliefs in how one is saved through the Messiah, and we actually are forbidden by our own theology from saying for certain who is not eternally saved. That’s why we name saints and not the damned.

And I disagree with you strongly, most Christians are definitely not familiar with Judaism; they are familiar with Christian teachings regarding the “Old Testament.”

Perhaps you need to become more familiar with the Christian teachings regarding the “Old Testament” then. I think you’d be suprised at how much we agree on. In fact, the “Old Testament” is not our point of divergence at all, but rather the New Testament. It is only in the post-Second Temple era that Jews and Christians begin to seperate theologically. In fact, I could just as easily say that Jews today do not have a “Jewish” understanding of the Torah, but rather a modern one shaped by the peculiar historical events of the Second Temple era. Do you really believe, for example, that the Jews of the Second Temple era believed that the Messiah would “rebuild” the Temple that was still standing? Do you really believe they understood the prophecies to mean that? Yet modern Jews proclaim that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple, and cite Scripture to support this view. How can that be said to be any more “authentic” than the Christian understanding, when it is certain that the Second Temple Jews didn’t agree with either group’s interpretations. Jews today are NOT identical theologically to the Ancient Jews, just as the Jews of the Second Temple were not at all identical to the Jews at the time of Moses. Each time period produced its own peculiar characteristics, and ours is no different. Christians ARE Jews in the sense that we are the theological descendants of the Hebrew people, just as the people who call themselves Jews today are. I’m sure that Jews of the First Temple period would find us both alien, albeit with certain familiar characteristics. Jewish theology has always been shaped by the times it found itself in, and has always read and reread prophesies to fit updated understandings. Christians were Jews who went one way after the death of Jesus, and modern Jews are descended from a particular group of Jews, the Pharisees, who went another. There’s nothing wrong with this, it’s simply a historical fact.

continued…

 

[Ghosty]

For Jews, our religion and our identity are one. They really are inseparable for a majority of the world’s Jews. To convert to Christianity is to lose your Jewish identity. I had relatives who died in the concentration camps in WWII. They died for Judaism, they died for G-d. They died for being Jews. And they are with G-d today. You have no idea what it does to me to contemplate leaving the Jewish faith, the pain and turmoil it creates inside me.

That is because of your perception of Christianity as a Gentile concoction. Do you really think the Apostles were Gentiles? That Jesus was a Gentile? That the first Christians were Gentiles? Read their writings, and you will see that none of them, not one, believed they were leaving Judaism, and modern Jews who have become Catholic feel the exact same way.

Let me put it this way: As a Jew you are awaiting the Messiah; it is one of the 13 fundamental tenets of the Jewish Faith according to Maimonides, in fact. The Jewish identity since the very beginning of the Covenant has been about waiting for the Messiah. You pray for the coming of the Messiah “though he may tarry”, you dedicate so much of your faith to it. Those Jews who died in the concentration camps went into the gas chambers singing that they believed in the coming of the Messiah. So, so much of the Jewish identity is in waiting, what happens when the Messiah comes? Would your identity be lost? You would no longer sing, you would no longer wait, you would no longer have anything to wait for. Would you cease being a Jew at that point? Or would you celebrate the growth of the Jewish identity, the post-Messianic identity, the Jewish identity in the Kingdom to Come? Wouldn’t you happily drop so much that was crucial to your identity? Wouldn’t you drop, without any tear or sorrow, the pain and suffering of waiting for a far off promise that has become so integral to the Jewish identity for thousands of years? I would argue that if you wouldn’t, then you would cease to be truly Jewish, because you would be abandoning the Messiah rather than welcoming him.

Jews who have become Christian almost universally continue to call themselves Jews. They think as Jews, they feel like Jews, and, like Edith Stein, they’ve died in concentration camps as Jews. Not one of them has felt like they were abandoning Judaism, but rather they have felt that they were embracing Judaism, because they were convinced with undying certainty that Jesus is the promised Messiah. I’d imagine that a true Jew would welcome the “change” in identity that the Messiah will bring, and for those that believe Jesus is the Messiah, they’ve already done so in their conviction; they are being the most Jewish they could possibly be. I think you underestimate how much I, and most Catholics, understand the connection between faith and identity.

The TANAKH is a Jewish book, given to Jews by G-d. I’m still not convinced that a non-Jew can tell a Jew what it means. The idea seems preposterous to me. It would be like a Jew explaining the gospels to a Christian.

The Tanakh is a part of our tradition, it is a part of our spirituality. We read it at Mass, we sing the Psalms, we meditate and pray over it daily. I’m not trying to tell you what it means at all, I’m just saying that to claim that the Tanakh is to us what the Gospels are to you is simply false. Again, the Apostles knew only the Tanakh, they taught us only from the Tanakh, and their beliefs came only from the Tanakh. I’m very sorry if it’s difficult for you to accept that our forebears were devout, prayerful Jews, but it’s the truth and is attested to by history. Our first Pope was a faithful Jew, who set in motion much of the workings of our Church, and most of the New Testament was written by faithful, synagogue-going Jews. Our Tradition is 100% Jewish, it’s just not the same Jewish tradition that you claim.

We owe it to eachother as two people who love and honor God to be honest with eachother, and sometimes that means we will be saying that we think the other is absolutely wrong. To do otherwise would be to dishonor God in our hearts. There is nothing disrespectful about speaking honestly with eachother. I’m not even asking you to convert, only to understand the Catholic perspective, just as I appreciate you giving yours (as I read "The Sayings of the Fathers, and the Talmud). I certainly don’t take offense at your defense of your faith, no matter how heavy handed it might become, simply because I know you are saying what you say for God. All I ask is that you try to understand the same of me.

 

[Ghosty]

I for one appreciate this alot. Would you believe that I’ve actually been called a “Jesus killer?” I have, and by Christians. I can’t beleive that in the year 2005, this mentality exists.
Hitler claimed to be a Christian, yet I’ve never callled Christians “Jew killers.”

Yes, it is the sin of many Christians, in the past and today, to dishonor our elder brothers because we believe they have (temporarily) turned away from the Messiah. Did you know that such an attitude is actually attacked by Paul in our Scriptures? Sadly, it is an example of how little many Christians understand their own faith, and a testament to how deeply people like John Paul II do understand it. Perhaps in reading my post to Alfredo you can better understand my position and why I said the things I did in my posts to you. It’s precisely because I love Judaism that I say the things I do, not because I have any kind of loathing for it.

As for Hitler, I don’t know that he claimed to be a Christian after his ascent to power. He was a Christian at one time, but the Nazi religion (and it was indeed a religion) was a hodge-podge of Pagan beliefs. This is why they used the swastika, for example, and why the S.S. used the double “Victory” Nordic Runes as their symbol. His entire belief in a super-race was actually derived from neo-pagan mysticism. Interestingly, he accused Catholicism of being “Jewish Christianity”, and was looking for excuses to purge us as well (thank God we were too well entrenched in his “Master Race” to allow him easy justification on the grounds of ethnic purity).

The Nazi religious belief system is actually very, very scary. It is very reminiscent of the pagan faiths that Jews were ordered by God to wipe out. Many mystics in the Catholic faith believe that the Nazis were quite possibly an attempt by those “gods” (demons in Christian terminology) to get back at the Jews, and their theological descendants; an attempt to once more assert their waning power in a world that was abandoning them. This is, interestingly enough, also adressed in “Salvation is from the Jews”, with a whole chapter devoted to this very topic! You really should read that book

 

[Ghosty]

A point never to be ignored is that Our Lord is the Jewish Messiah. They are to him flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. As John Paul once said, they are not only our brothers, but in a certain way, our elder brothers. For us to have laid hands on them is, therefore, an especially evil deed.

Amen! How much greater are we “wild branches” when surrounded by the “cultivated branches”?! Jesus the Christ was a Jew, Our Blessed Mother Mary was a Jew, Peter and Paul, the first Pope and the great Evangelizer, were both dedicated Jews! Our faith is true by the very virtue of the Jewish Covenant, and that must never, ever be forgotten.

 

[alfredo]

Ghosty:

Do you think that would have been possible if he had been as harsh as you recommend?

I did not recommend this. I think I said that since Vatican II the Church has taken a softer stand toward the Jews.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Yes, it is the sin of many Christians, in the past and today, to dishonor our elder brothers because we believe they have (temporarily) turned away from the Messiah. Did you know that such an attitude is actually attacked by Paul in our Scriptures? Sadly, it is an example of how little many Christians understand their own faith, and a testament to how deeply people like John Paul II do understand it. Perhaps in reading my post to Alfredo you can better understand my position and why I said the things I did in my posts to you. It’s precisely because I love Judaism that I say the things I do, not because I have any kind of loathing for it.

As for Hitler, I don’t know that he claimed to be a Christian after his ascent to power. He was a Christian at one time, but the Nazi religion (and it was indeed a religion) was a hodge-podge of Pagan beliefs. This is why they used the swastika, for example, and why the S.S. used the double “Victory” Nordic Runes as their symbol. His entire belief in a super-race was actually derived from neo-pagan mysticism. Interestingly, he accused Catholicism of being “Jewish Christianity”, and was looking for excuses to purge us as well (thank God we were too well entrenched in his “Master Race” to allow him easy justification on the grounds of ethnic purity).

The Nazi religious belief system is actually very, very scary. It is very reminiscent of the pagan faiths that Jews were ordered by God to wipe out. Many mystics in the Catholic faith believe that the Nazis were quite possibly an attempt by those “gods” (demons in Christian terminology) to get back at the Jews, and their theological descendants; an attempt to once more assert their waning power in a world that was abandoning them. This is, interestingly enough, also adressed in “Salvation is from the Jews”, with a whole chapter devoted to this very topic! You really should read that book

I must admit, I had no idea that Paul attacked this attitude in his writings. I knew about the pagan elements of the Third Riech (I’ve always been taught that their beliefs were a mixture of Christianity and paganism), but didn’t know about the Nazi attitudes towards the Catholic church.
Unfortunately, anti-Semitism is alive and well today. I’ve experienced it myself, and alot of it has come from Christians that I’ve known. This is exactly why so many Jews are hostile to the Christian religion. They have dealings with anti-Semitic Christians and then they see Christians all over the place trying to evangelize them and take them away from their Jewish faith. They equate the evangelism with the anti-Semitism, and feel they’re being attacked. I have to admit I’ve felt this way before too. That’s exactly why I was offended at the use of the word “ignorance.” You didn’t seem to like it very much when I referred to Christians as “ignorant”, so maybe now you have some more insight as to why I was offended. If we are to get along peacefully and build bridges, there are words and phrases that need to be avoided. Tact is a wonderful thing. If someone is trying to witness to me and convince me to accept Christ, they’re not going to do it by using such terms. They’re only going to push me away and make me hold to my Jewish beliefs even tighter.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

That is because of your perception of Christianity as a Gentile concoction. Do you really think the Apostles were Gentiles? That Jesus was a Gentile? That the first Christians were Gentiles? Read their writings, and you will see that none of them, not one, believed they were leaving Judaism, and modern Jews who have become Catholic feel the exact same way.

Let me put it this way: As a Jew you are awaiting the Messiah; it is one of the 13 fundamental tenets of the Jewish Faith according to Maimonides, in fact. The Jewish identity since the very beginning of the Covenant has been about waiting for the Messiah. You pray for the coming of the Messiah “though he may tarry”, you dedicate so much of your faith to it. Those Jews who died in the concentration camps went into the gas chambers singing that they believed in the coming of the Messiah. So, so much of the Jewish identity is in waiting, what happens when the Messiah comes? Would your identity be lost? You would no longer sing, you would no longer wait, you would no longer have anything to wait for. Would you cease being a Jew at that point? Or would you celebrate the growth of the Jewish identity, the post-Messianic identity, the Jewish identity in the Kingdom to Come? Wouldn’t you happily drop so much that was crucial to your identity? Wouldn’t you drop, without any tear or sorrow, the pain and suffering of waiting for a far off promise that has become so integral to the Jewish identity for thousands of years? I would argue that if you wouldn’t, then you would cease to be truly Jewish, because you would be abandoning the Messiah rather than welcoming him.

Jews who have become Christian almost universally continue to call themselves Jews. They think as Jews, they feel like Jews, and, like Edith Stein, they’ve died in concentration camps as Jews. Not one of them has felt like they were abandoning Judaism, but rather they have felt that they were embracing Judaism, because they were convinced with undying certainty that Jesus is the promised Messiah. I’d imagine that a true Jew would welcome the “change” in identity that the Messiah will bring, and for those that believe Jesus is the Messiah, they’ve already done so in their conviction; they are being the most Jewish they could possibly be. I think you underestimate how much I, and most Catholics, understand the connection between faith and identity.

The Tanakh is a part of our tradition, it is a part of our spirituality. We read it at Mass, we sing the Psalms, we meditate and pray over it daily. I’m not trying to tell you what it means at all, I’m just saying that to claim that the Tanakh is to us what the Gospels are to you is simply false. Again, the Apostles knew only the Tanakh, they taught us only from the Tanakh, and their beliefs came only from the Tanakh. I’m very sorry if it’s difficult for you to accept that our forebears were devout, prayerful Jews, but it’s the truth and is attested to by history. Our first Pope was a faithful Jew, who set in motion much of the workings of our Church, and most of the New Testament was written by faithful, synagogue-going Jews. Our Tradition is 100% Jewish, it’s just not the same Jewish tradition that you claim.

We owe it to eachother as two people who love and honor God to be honest with eachother, and sometimes that means we will be saying that we think the other is absolutely wrong. To do otherwise would be to dishonor God in our hearts. There is nothing disrespectful about speaking honestly with eachother. I’m not even asking you to convert, only to understand the Catholic perspective, just as I appreciate you giving yours (as I read "The Sayings of the Fathers, and the Talmud). I certainly don’t take offense at your defense of your faith, no matter how heavy handed it might become, simply because I know you are saying what you say for God. All I ask is that you try to understand the same of me.

I’m not prepared at this time to respond to all the points in this post, but I can address one point: the Messiah. Of course I will still be Jewish when he comes. Judaism teaches that he will actually lift up the Jews and free us from our enemies, and bring the truth of the Jewish faith to the world. In fact, Judaism teaches that Gentiles all over the globe will convert and become Jews.
We’ve both been heavy-handed in the defense of our faiths. Let’s avoid that from now on.

 

[Ghosty]

Some quotes from Paul regarding the Jews, all taken from Romans 11:

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah–how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.c]

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

As you can see, Paul was absolutely adamant that the final chapter has not yet been written for the Jews, and that indeed we are destined to be reunited completely. This comes directly from our Sacred Writings, not just mere opinion by some theologian. We believe that the Jews HAVE stumbled, but we are admonished by the Apostle to belief that not only are they not fallen out of God’s sight, but that they are indeed still irrevocably the “first son” of God. This is why JPII called the Jews “our elder brothers”. You can see by Paul’s writings the context I’m speaking in when I talk of Salvation. Many Christians have sinned in erasing this part of our Sacred Writings, these thoroughly explicit statements, from their minds when dealing with the Jews.

I have to admit I’ve felt this way before too. That’s exactly why I was offended at the use of the word “ignorance.” You didn’t seem to like it very much when I referred to Christians as “ignorant”, so maybe now you have some more insight as to why I was offended.

Well, I was simply correcting what I believe to be an error in your perception of Christian understanding of Judaism, where you seem to be taking personally the statement that Jews are ignorant of Jesus being the Messiah. I still think these are two very different things. I, for example, have no problem with Muslims saying that I’m ignorant of Mohammed as God’s Prophet. Indeed I am, and that’s what MAKES me a Christian and not a Muslim!

I simply think you misread the intent of that statement; saying “through ignorance” was actually a defense of Jews and not an attack. Remember, the Christians who have attacked you say that you willfully reject God, and we are trying to say that you do not. The same thing is true of driving on the opposite side of the street in another country accidently, you would might be ignorant of the laws of the land, but not hostile or reckless about them. Magdalan was simply saying that Jews are not recklessly dishonoring God in any way, which I think is a sign of compassion.

 

[Ahimsa]

Ghosty:

Many mystics in the Catholic faith believe that the Nazis were quite possibly an attempt by those “gods” (demons in Christian terminology) to get back at the Jews, and their theological descendants; an attempt to once more assert their waning power in a world that was abandoning them.

Which gods would these be? The gods of Old Europe?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Some quotes from Paul regarding the Jews, all taken from Romans 11:

As you can see, Paul was absolutely adamant that the final chapter has not yet been written for the Jews, and that indeed we are destined to be reunited completely. This comes directly from our Sacred Writings, not just mere opinion by some theologian. We believe that the Jews HAVE stumbled, but we are admonished by the Apostle to belief that not only are they not fallen out of God’s sight, but that they are indeed still irrevocably the “first son” of God. This is why JPII called the Jews “our elder brothers”. You can see by Paul’s writings the context I’m speaking in when I talk of Salvation. Many Christians have sinned in erasing this part of our Sacred Writings, these thoroughly explicit statements, from their minds when dealing with the Jews.

Well, I was simply correcting what I believe to be an error in your perception of Christian understanding of Judaism, where you seem to be taking personally the statement that Jews are ignorant of Jesus being the Messiah. I still think these are two very different things. I, for example, have no problem with Muslims saying that I’m ignorant of Mohammed as God’s Prophet. Indeed I am, and that’s what MAKES me a Christian and not a Muslim!

I simply think you misread the intent of that statement; saying “through ignorance” was actually a defense of Jews and not an attack. Remember, the Christians who have attacked you say that you willfully reject God, and we are trying to say that you do not. The same thing is true of driving on the opposite side of the street in another country accidently, you would might be ignorant of the laws of the land, but not hostile or reckless about them. Magdalan was simply saying that Jews are not recklessly dishonoring God in any way, which I think is a sign of compassion.

Of course we honor G-d, just diffrently than Christians. Yes, alot of Christians have accused me of willfully rejecting G-d, of being hard-hearted towards Him. I’ve never understood why they say this.
Moving on the passage of Scripture. I don’t understand. When are Christians and Jews going to be reunited?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Some quotes from Paul regarding the Jews, all taken from Romans 11:

As you can see, Paul was absolutely adamant that the final chapter has not yet been written for the Jews, and that indeed we are destined to be reunited completely. This comes directly from our Sacred Writings, not just mere opinion by some theologian. We believe that the Jews HAVE stumbled, but we are admonished by the Apostle to belief that not only are they not fallen out of God’s sight, but that they are indeed still irrevocably the “first son” of God. This is why JPII called the Jews “our elder brothers”. You can see by Paul’s writings the context I’m speaking in when I talk of Salvation. Many Christians have sinned in erasing this part of our Sacred Writings, these thoroughly explicit statements, from their minds when dealing with the Jews.

Well, I was simply correcting what I believe to be an error in your perception of Christian understanding of Judaism, where you seem to be taking personally the statement that Jews are ignorant of Jesus being the Messiah. I still think these are two very different things. I, for example, have no problem with Muslims saying that I’m ignorant of Mohammed as God’s Prophet. Indeed I am, and that’s what MAKES me a Christian and not a Muslim!

I simply think you misread the intent of that statement; saying “through ignorance” was actually a defense of Jews and not an attack. Remember, the Christians who have attacked you say that you willfully reject God, and we are trying to say that you do not. The same thing is true of driving on the opposite side of the street in another country accidently, you would might be ignorant of the laws of the land, but not hostile or reckless about them. Magdalan was simply saying that Jews are not recklessly dishonoring God in any way, which I think is a sign of compassion.

By the way, there are many Jews who do know the NT well. My rabbi knows it from cover to cover. I don’t, though.

 

[Ghosty]

Tact is a wonderful thing. If someone is trying to witness to me and convince me to accept Christ, they’re not going to do it by using such terms. They’re only going to push me away and make me hold to my Jewish beliefs even tighter.

Agreed, but on top of tact one must also be willing to take statements with the intent they are meant. Ignorance, as I’ve shown, is not always an insult, but can actually be a defence. If I didn’t know you were Jewish, and I served you a non-Kosher meal, ignorance would be my defense, not a slur against me. A Jew might lovingly rise to my defense and plead for my ignorance on the matter, in fact. That’s the way it was intended, and was in no way untactful.

I’m not prepared at this time to respond to all the points in this post, but I can address one point: the Messiah. Of course I will still be Jewish when he comes. Judaism teaches that he will actually lift up the Jews and free us from our enemies, and bring the truth of the Jewish faith to the world. In fact, Judaism teaches that Gentiles all over the globe will convert and become Jews.

That’s precisely what the Church teaches too. We have even called ourselves the People Israel, and non-Catholics Gentiles in the past. I have never heard an Orthodox Jew say that Gentiles would become Jews per-se, however, in the sense that they would be circumcised and what-not after the Messiah comes, but rather that they would come to recognize and worship the Hebrew God as the true God of All. The Gentiles could no more become Jews than they could crawl into the womb of Rachel (this is another matter entirely from modern and ancient proselytes, who still bear a distinct mark within Judaism as non-members of the Tribe). Their participation in the post-Messianic Covenant is not clearly mapped out in Orthodox Judaism, something better left to the future to show rather than speculation. The Church is simply an answer to “How will the Gentiles become Jews?” Paul calls it “circumcision of the heart”.

Remember, we believe we are literally living in the Messianic Age, and that the Gentiles who have come into the Church are the very same as the Gentiles who are expected to come into the worship of God by the Orthodox Jews. You say “they will become Jews”, and we agree. We just have a different idea of what that means, which is understandable since even Judaism doesn’t have a coherent notion of what it means exactly.

We’ve both been heavy-handed in the defense of our faiths. Let’s avoid that from now on.

Fair enough! I only ask that when I do make a mistake, you open your heart to my explaination of intent rather than willfully harboring your own pre-judgement (this assumes misunderstanding, of course) and I will do the same. God bless!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Agreed, but on top of tact one must also be willing to take statements with the intent they are meant. Ignorance, as I’ve shown, is not always an insult, but can actually be a defence. If I didn’t know you were Jewish, and I served you a non-Kosher meal, ignorance would be my defense, not a slur against me. A Jew might lovingly rise to my defense and plead for my ignorance on the matter, in fact. That’s the way it was intended, and was in no way untactful.

That’s precisely what the Church teaches too. We have even called ourselves the People Israel, and non-Catholics Gentiles in the past. I have never heard an Orthodox Jew say that Gentiles would become Jews per-se, however, in the sense that they would be circumcised and what-not after the Messiah comes, but rather that they would come to recognize and worship the Hebrew God as the true God of All. The Gentiles could no more become Jews than they could crawl into the womb of Rachel (this is another matter entirely from modern and ancient proselytes, who still bear a distinct mark within Judaism as non-members of the Tribe). Their participation in the post-Messianic Covenant is not clearly mapped out in Orthodox Judaism, something better left to the future to show rather than speculation. The Church is simply an answer to “How will the Gentiles become Jews?” Paul calls it “circumcision of the heart”.

Remember, we believe we are literally living in the Messianic Age, and that the Gentiles who have come into the Church are the very same as the Gentiles who are expected to come into the worship of God by the Orthodox Jews. You say “they will become Jews”, and we agree. We just have a different idea of what that means, which is understandable since even Judaism doesn’t have a coherent notion of what it means exactly.

Fair enough! I only ask that when I do make a mistake, you open your heart to my explaination of intent rather than willfully harboring your own pre-judgement (this assumes misunderstanding, of course) and I will do the same. God bless!

According to Judaism, anyone who converts to the faith becomes a Jew. I’m pretty sure all branches teach this.