What is Hell?

[2nd_Adam]

What do you mean that God poured out His wrath (active) on Christ (passive) at Calvary.

What specifically did God do in addition to give His Son over to be crucified. Please be specific.

I have heard it said that God poured out His wrath on Christ at Calvary, but I have a hard time visualizing what it exactly is that God did other than (1) giving His Son over to man for crucifixion (2) separating His Son from His presence.

Isaiah 53

53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us? [1]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected [2] by men;
a man of sorrows, [3] and acquainted with [4] grief; [5]
and as one from whom men hide their faces [6]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief; [7]
when his soul makes [8] an offering for guilt,he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see [9] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, [10]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, [11]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No, because God is here too… You are never separated from God.

Interesting Janet. What is sin then? Does it separate us from God? Yes or no?

*Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that he does not hear. * Is. 59 1:2

If you cannot be separated from God, like you contend, and the Bible tells me that sin separates me from God, do you also hold that a person cannot sin?

God bless

 

[Janet1983]

Interesting Janet. What is sin then? Does it separate us from God? Yes or no?

Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that he does not hear. Is. 59 1:2

If you cannot be separated from God, like you contend, and the Bible tells me that sin separates me from God, do you also hold that a person cannot sin?

God bless

God is omnipresent and omnipotent… Of course we can separate through our sin and our prayers will not be answered… But that does not mean that God is not here.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Just a few questions:
How can God be omnipresent if He is not present in hell?
How can God be omniscient if He is not present in hell and fully aware of what the results and just sentence for defying Him looks like?
How can God be omnipotent if He cannot punish and fulfill eternal justice where justice is due?

PS: My signature is an excerpt of a sermon given by Johnathan Edwards about “Sinners in the hand of an angry God” and thereby about hell…

I voted for eternal torment and eternal seperation (with the exception of the wrath of God). Unbelievers are seperated from all of the benefical attributes of God as creatures; instead unbelieves are vessels of wrath (His divine justice which God is glorified). The wrath of God being poured out on unbelievers is not really a complete seperation from God in an unpleasant way. If God was not present in Hell in some way, then Hell could not exist for eternity.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

God is omnipresent and omnipotent… Of course we can separate through our sin and our prayers will not be answered… But that does not mean that God is not here.

Janet this is not what you said:

Janet1983:

No, because God is here too… **You are never **separated from God.

Does sin separate us from God? Yes or no?

God bless

 

[NotTooSmart]

Isaiah 53

53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us? [1]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected [2] by men;
a man of sorrows, [3] and acquainted with [4] grief; [5]
and as one from whom men hide their faces [6]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief; [7]
when his soul makes [8] an offering for guilt,he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see [9] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, [10]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, [11]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

OK.

But what did God actually do to fulfill this passage from Isaiah?

Was just the act of giving His Son over to man for crucifixion sufficient to fulfill this passage? Or did God do something else? If God did something else, what did He do?

 

[Janet1983]

Janet this is not what you said:

Does sin separate us from God? Yes or no?

God bless

By our own sin we can turn away, but God is omnipresent…
In the afterlife as well as here…

 

[2nd_Adam]

OK.

But what did God actually do to fulfill this passage from Isaiah?

Was just the act of giving His Son over to man for crucifixion sufficient to fulfill this passage? Or did God do something else? If God did something else, what did He do?

Consider Romans 1:

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, [5] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” [6]

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Matthew 3:7

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1 John 2:2

2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

There is a common theme of the wrath of God against sin being revealed. Within the atonement, the word propitiation needs to be considered. Maybe you can explore the biblical words of wrath and propitation first, then we can continue. Have you read Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

By our own sin we can turn away, but God is omnipresent…
In the afterlife as well as here…

Does sin separate us from God? Yes or no?

God bless

 

[Anna_Scott]

If it is separation from god would that mean i am in hell right now?

Dancer Whirls,

That is a very interesting comment.

If you don’t mind my asking, what are you experiencing in “hell right now”?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

No, because God is here too… You are never separated from God.

There is no separation from God, not even in hell.
God is omnipresent and that of course includes hell where God will glorify Himself through His eternal justice.

Just a few questions:
How can God be omnipresent if He is not present in hell?
How can God be omniscient if He is not present in hell and fully aware of what the results and just sentence for defying Him looks like?
How can God be omnipotent if He cannot punish and fulfill eternal justice where justice is due?

PS: My signature is an excerpt of a sermon given by Johnathan Edwards about “Sinners in the hand of an angry God” and thereby about hell…

God is omnipresent and omnipotent… Of course we can separate through our sin and our prayers will not be answered… But that does not mean that God is not here.

By our own sin we can turn away, but God is omnipresent…
In the afterlife as well as here…

Janet:

Please provide support through Scripture, Catechism, Christian Fathers, etc. for your claims that we are never separated from God, not even in Hell; and that God is present in Hell.

Anna

 

[NotTooSmart]

Consider Romans 1:

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, [5] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” [6]

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Matthew 3:7

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

1 John 2:2

2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

There is a common theme of the wrath of God against sin being revealed. Within the atonement, the word propitiation needs to be considered. Maybe you can explore the biblical words of wrath and propitation first, then we can continue. Have you read Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan?

But you are not asking my question.

What did God do in addition to delivering Jesus Christ over to men for crucifixion while Jesus was on the cross that can be considered His wrath that is recorded in Scripture? For example, did God rain lightning bolts on Jesus while he was suffering on the cross to make the suffering a little worse for His son?

You see, I have heard also that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. But when I read the gospel accounts of the crucifixion, I do not read of anything else that God actually did during this time that could be even remotely considered actively pouring out His wrath on His son.

So I am forced to conclude that simply the deliverance of His son over to men for crucifixion is sufficient to satisfy the prophecy of Isaiah 53.

And this seems to be consistent with the character of God as He has clearly revealed Himself in Scripture.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Janet:

Please provide support through Scripture, Catechism, Christian Fathers, etc. for your claims that we are never separated from God, not even in Hell; and that God is present in Hell.

Anna

Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

• Pslam 139

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

• Pslam 139

2nd Adam same question to you;

Does sin separate us from God? Yes or no?

God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

But you are not asking my question.

What did God do in addition to delivering Jesus Christ over to men for crucifixion while Jesus was on the cross that can be considered His wrath that is recorded in Scripture? For example, did God rain lightning bolts on Jesus while he was suffering on the cross to make the suffering a little worse for His son?

You see, I have heard also that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. But when I read the gospel accounts of the crucifixion, I do not read of anything else that God actually did during this time that could be even remotely considered actively pouring out His wrath on His son.

So I am forced to conclude that simply the deliverance of His son over to men for crucifixion is sufficient to satisfy the prophecy of Isaiah 53.

And this seems to be consistent with the character of God as He has clearly revealed Himself in Scripture.

If you reduce the wrath of God and the understanding of propitation, then you reduce the work of Christ for sinners. Are you saying that God is not active in pouring out His wrath upon Christ for sins that we committed? If you go the soft route, then you are minimizing sin againts God who is just, holy and righteous. Man’s cosmic rebellion against our creator is a major major issue. The cross of Christ is only as glorifying as understanding what Christ bore for us as our substitute.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam same question to you;

Does sin separate us from God? Yes or no?

God bless

I did a yes and no answer a few posts ago. Do you mind looking for it?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I did a yes and no answer a few posts ago. Do you mind looking for it?

Couldn’t find it. Could you answer the questions or is “yes and no” your… final answer

Does sin separate us from God? Yes or no? If no why is there a need to “reconcile” us back with God?

• And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death* Col 1:21-22

For if while we were enemies we were **reconciled **to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Rom 5:10

If no why does IS 59 say:

*Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that he does not hear. * Is. 59 1:2

God bless

 

[NotTooSmart]

If you reduce the wrath of God and the understanding of propitation, then you reduce the work of Christ for sinners. Are you saying that God is not active in pouring out His wrath upon Christ for sins that we committed? If you go the soft route, then you are minimizing sin againts God who is just, holy and righteous. Man’s cosmic rebellion against our creator is a major major issue. The cross of Christ is only as glorifying as understanding what Christ bore for us as our substitute.

But you are not answering my question.

Repeating it again…

What did God specically do while Jesus was on the cross that would be considered actively pouring out His wrath upon Christ for the sins that we have committed?

Is this a question that should not be asked somehow?

 

[Anna_Scott]

PS: My signature is an excerpt of a sermon given by Johnathan Edwards about “Sinners in the hand of an angry God” and thereby about hell…

Here is another quote of Edwards:

Jonathan Edwards (Dated April, 1739)

The Eternity of Hell’s Torments
Subject: The misery of the wicked in hell will be absolutely eternal.

Fourth, the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.

The sight of the wonderful power, the great and dreadful majesty, and awful justice and holiness of God, manifested in the eternal punishment of ungodly men, will make them prize his favor and love vastly the more. And they will be so much the more happy in the enjoyment of it.

biblebb.com/files/edwards/eternity.htm

I find the writings of Jonathan Edwards sadistic and offensive to the Christian faith.

Anna

 

[NotTooSmart]

If you reduce the wrath of God and the understanding of propitation, then you reduce the work of Christ for sinners. Are you saying that God is not active in pouring out His wrath upon Christ for sins that we committed? If you go the soft route, then you are minimizing sin againts God who is just, holy and righteous. Man’s cosmic rebellion against our creator is a major major issue. The cross of Christ is only as glorifying as understanding what Christ bore for us as our substitute.

You see, I was originally taught the same, that God was actively pouring out His wrath on Christ on the cross.

But you see, I have some bad habits.

I read too much from many different sources. And I try to fairly evaluate what I read. And then I often ask stupid questions.

So once I read an article saying that was not the case. That it was more like what I was saying.

I can’t remember the gist of his argument. But I do remember of it being fairly convincing…enough for me to at least want to think about it…chew on it…and come up with a set of stupid questions to ask myself.

And one of the questions that I came up with is the one that I am asking here. I have not yet received a satisfactory answer to this stupid question.

So again, I don’t know what God was doing that could even be considered pouring out His wrath upon His son on the cross…other than giving Him up for crucifixion.

Is that too unreasonable of a question to ask?