What is Hell?

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Proof text is too strong of a word. To logically prove something from the Biblical text is much more difficult than it seems.

The strongest Scripture in support of eternal torment in my mind is Luke 16:19-31 where you encounter words such as torment, agony, flame. If you combine this Scripture with a few other similar ones along with the argument from history (hell has for 2000 years been traditionally viewed as a place of torment by Catholics, Protestants and (I assume) Orthodox), you have a pretty strong argument.

The best counter argument in my mind is to start with what we know about the character of God and work backwards from there. It seems to me that if I accept that God is holy and can / will not sin, then either what I understand to be sin is way off base (for example killing heretics for Christ by burning them at the stake…that is nothing compared to what God does), or God does what he has declared to be sin to us humans, thereby maintaining a double standard, or the Chick tract characterization of hell is a tad off base and it is not a place of eternal torment.

Still mulling this over in my mind. Both of these arguments seem good, but they are obviously contradictory.
Interesting…

I, too, consider whether or not a loving God would condemn one to eternal torment. Life on earth is just a “blink” compared to eternity.

I am certain that God’s love and mercy are far greater than mine-- and to a degree, I doubt humans can comprehend. I could not sentence someone to an eternity in a fiery torment. So, I cannot comprehend that a loving God would do that.

I know much emphasis is placed on tradition. But, the early church fathers believed things, neither Catholics nor Protestants believe today. So, tradition is not always a litmus test.

As I noted in a previous post, Pope John Paul II did not agree with the ECF on the definition of Hell. So, traditions within Christianity do change, even within the Catholic Church.

I suppose, there are many things we will not fully understand this side of eternity–deferring to the “mystery clause.” 🙂

Anna
 
=Anna Scott;5795861]What do you believe “Hell” to be?
Eternal Torment
Hell is Eternal!

The GREATEST sufferings of Hell are 1. Seperation from God whom you now fully understand. 2. The knowledge that it is you yourself who sentenced yourself to hell. Christ only affirmed you’re decision:eek:

The nature of hell * will be exactly what one hopes it will NOT be and will be cuntomized to inflict the most severe pain and suffering possible.:eek:
Purgatory/Temporal Punishment–without
the Possibility of Eternal Punishment

Purgatory/Temporal Punishment–with the Possibility of Eternal Punishment

We can know from the Divine Nature of God’s necessary Justice and Fairness that we must be “perfected” before we can be welcomed into God’s Presence. [Mt. 5:48. 1 Peter 1: 14-16]. Purgatory is a sort of “Soul wash” and it’s time will depend only on the condition of ones soul in relation to being perfected. After life there is no such thing as “time” so whether we are in Purgatory for one minite or one thousand years; it’ll feel like eternity because of our knowledge of God, and our longing to be with Him:eek:

Other-Please Explain in Comments

Please take the poll. All comments are welcome

Anna*
Love and prayers,

Pat
 
Hell is Eternal!

The GREATEST sufferings of Hell are 1. Seperation from God whom you now fully understand. 2. The knowledge that it is you yourself who sentenced yourself to hell. Christ only affirmed you’re decision:eek:

The nature of hell * will be exactly what one hopes it will NOT be and will be cuntomized to inflict the most severe pain and suffering possible. . .*

You said Hell will be “cuntomized to inflict the most severe pain and suffering possible.” How does that fit with the words of Pope John Paul II?

(Emphasis is mine.)

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”.
  1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. **It is not a punishment imposed externally by God **but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.
Hell is a state of eternal damnation
  1. To describe this reality **Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language **which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).
The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.

Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).
  1. *The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. **This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
**“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. **In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
  1. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no”, which marks the human creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.

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Respectfully,
Anna
 
I’m still a bit confused about the Catholic beliefs on hell. You mentioned both eternal fire and separation from God.

Do those condemned to Hell suffer the physical torment of eternal fire?
According to the Dialogues of St Catherine of Sienna, there are 4 torments of Hell.
  1. Souls are deprived of seeing God. This is so painful that they would choose the sight of God along with the…torments, rather than freedom from theif pains without seeing God.
  2. Ceaseless regret and agonizing about what has been lost. For they see that thier sinfulness has deprived them of seeing God. Instead their sinfullness has made the worthy for seeing demons and sharing their fellowship. Their concsience gnaws at tehm constantly.
  3. The suffering is even worse for tehy see the devil as he really is - More horrible tha the human heart can imagine.
  4. Ceaseless burning in an immaterial fire that has as many forms as the sins that were committed. "They will be engulfed in all the filth for the earth, in as many different ways as their evil deeds were different.
If they are separated from God, where do they reside, and what do they do throughout eternity?
They reside in hell. A place we should firmly and dilligently aspire to avoid.
Better to not become distracted by, “where Hell is” and continue to focus on where heaven is and get on the road. At least that is my take on it.

Peace
James
 
Just a few questions:
How can God be omnipresent if He is not present in hell?
How can God be omniscient if He is not present in hell and fully aware of what the results and just sentence for defying Him looks like?
How can God be omnipotent if He cannot punish and fulfill eternal justice where justice is due?

PS: My signature is an excerpt of a sermon given by Johnathan Edwards about “Sinners in the hand of an angry God” and thereby about hell…
There seems to be a misconception about being seperated from God. Seperation from God dones not necessarily mean that God is not present. (though I’m not sure of the Church’s teaching on God being present in hell) What it does mean is that a person in hell can never be united with God in heaven, cannot never again God as He truly is.
I would say that there are many on this earth who are sperated from God, yet we know that God is present here.
See what I mean?

Peace
James
 
The Early Church Fathers and Pope John Paul II do not seem to be in agreement with the definition of “hell.”
Not necessarily. Let’s look for a minute. (I am looking at these mainly in light of the bolded section of JP II’s comments below)
**Justin Martyr (151AD) **
We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire (“First Apology” 21).
Man has the choice placed before him of Loving service to God or rejection of God and His Law of Love. Man makes the choice of where to go by his beliefs and actions in this life.
[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (“First Apology” 52).
Note that the word here is “Commit”, not judge. The wicked have already judged themselves.
**From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD) **
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”)
But this does not say the type of punishment and JP II does say hell is punishment.
**From “Second Clement” (150AD) **
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
Again, what we do “obtains” for us. We make the choice.
**From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD) **
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
**From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD) **
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
The use of the “Fire” here may simply be the most descriptive word available to the author. In my post above from St Catherine, you’ll note that she speaks of an immaterial fire that is as varied as teh sins committed.
**From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD) **
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
From Irenaeus (189AD)
[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire (“Against Heresies” 1:10:1)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . *t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
**From Tertullian (197AD) ***
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13).
These do speak more in terms of God’s Judgement than in mans choice, and also use the visual of eternal fire. However as mentioned above, Fire may not be fire in the sense that we know it in this life.
 
(Cont)
By the time we reach Pope John Paul II, “hell” has an entirely different definition. So, the interpretations of the fate of the lost in the afterlife, does not appear to be fixed, even within the Catholic Church.
Quote from Pope John Paul II:
"Hell is the State of Those who Reject God
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”.
  1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life."
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com

Please correct me, if I have misquoted, or misunderstood. I am not Catholic, so I do not want to misrepresent the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

It does seem that Pope John Paul II broke from the traditional Catholic interpretation of Hell. Would Catholic Forum Members help me to understand this?

Respectfully,
Anna

Note that, while JP II does not use the visual of fire, that he does reinforce the idea of man’s choosing hell. He also reinforces the idea of “Punishment”. I really don’t see a great deal of divergence between the ECF’s and JP II. JP II certainly has not said anything in his remarks that uncuts the idea of “Hell-Fire”.
Ultimately I think that St. Catherine’s descriptions make great sense both from the idea of man’s free choice AND from the idea of eternal torment “custom tailored” to the sins, with conscience gnawing and evils burning one in an immaterial fire.

Peace
James
 
What do you believe “Hell” to be?

Eternal Torment

Death/Annihilation

Eternal Separation from God

Purgatory/Temporal Punishment–without the Possibility of Eternal Punishment

Purgatory/Temporal Punishment–with the Possibility of Eternal Punishment

Other-Please Explain in Comments

Please take the poll. All comments are welcome

Anna

Heaven - without God.​

 
According to the Dialogues of St Catherine of Sienna, there are 4 torments of Hell.
  1. Souls are deprived of seeing God. This is so painful that they would choose the sight of God along with the…torments, rather than freedom from theif pains without seeing God.
  2. Ceaseless regret and agonizing about what has been lost. For they see that thier sinfulness has deprived them of seeing God. Instead their sinfullness has made the worthy for seeing demons and sharing their fellowship. Their concsience gnaws at tehm constantly.
  3. The suffering is even worse for tehy see the devil as he really is - More horrible tha the human heart can imagine.
  4. Ceaseless burning in an immaterial fire that has as many forms as the sins that were committed. "They will be engulfed in all the filth for the earth, in as many different ways as their evil deeds were different.
They reside in hell. A place we should firmly and dilligently aspire to avoid.
Better to not become distracted by, “where Hell is” and continue to focus on where heaven is and get on the road. At least that is my take on it.

Peace
James
There seems to be a misconception about being seperated from God. Seperation from God dones not necessarily mean that God is not present. (though I’m not sure of the Church’s teaching on God being present in hell) What it does mean is that a person in hell can never be united with God in heaven, cannot never again God as He truly is.
I would say that there are many on this earth who are sperated from God, yet we know that God is present here.
See what I mean?
Peace
James
Not necessarily. Let’s look for a minute. (I am looking at these mainly in light of the bolded section of JP II’s comments below)

Man has the choice placed before him of Loving service to God or rejection of God and His Law of Love. Man makes the choice of where to go by his beliefs and actions in this life.

Note that the word here is “Commit”, not judge. The wicked have already judged themselves.

But this does not say the type of punishment and JP II does say hell is punishment.

Again, what we do “obtains” for us. We make the choice.

The use of the “Fire” here may simply be the most descriptive word available to the author. In my post above from St Catherine, you’ll note that she speaks of an immaterial fire that is as varied as teh sins committed.

These do speak more in terms of God’s Judgement than in mans choice, and also use the visual of eternal fire. However as mentioned above, Fire may not be fire in the sense that we know it in this life. (Cont)
(Cont)

Note that, while JP II does not use the visual of fire, that he does reinforce the idea of man’s choosing hell. He also reinforces the idea of “Punishment”. I really don’t see a great deal of divergence between the ECF’s and JP II. JP II certainly has not said anything in his remarks that uncuts the idea of “Hell-Fire”.
Ultimately I think that St. Catherine’s descriptions make great sense both from the idea of man’s free choice AND from the idea of eternal torment “custom tailored” to the sins, with conscience gnawing and evils burning one in an immaterial fire.

Peace
James
James:

Thank you for taking so much time to explain the Catholic viewpoint in comparing the beliefs of Pope John Paul II with the ECFs. I kept waiting for a Catholic response.

I do think some of the writings of the ECFs do seem to describe a literal eternal fire. So, I do see the image of Hell soften a bit, by the time Pope John Paul II wrote his beliefs on the subject.

Personally, I believe the lost will suffer eternal death/annihilation. The Scriptures of both O.T. and N.T. seem to point to this. I gave some O.T. passages earlier on this Thread, if you have time to check them out. I may re-post them, so you do not have to search for them.

One thing I find to be very interesting, is a Jewish belief of Gehenna as a Purgatory. I quoted it on another thread. I will quote it next post.

Thank you, James. Always good to hear your viewpoints.

In Christ,
Anna
 
James,

This is one of several Jewish viewpoints on the afterlife. Gehinom (Gehenna) is described as Purgatory. Is this related to the Catholic beliefs regarding Purgatory?
Thread: Anybody Know? (Is there mention of hell in the OT? What do Jews believe about hell?)

Link: chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

What Happens After We Die?, By Shlomo Yaffe and Yanki Tauber

"What is Heaven and Hell?
Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the “Thirteen Principles” of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different “heaven” and “hell” than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.

After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source
, together with all the G-dliness it has “extracted” from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.

This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense–in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality–a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8–depending on how we played the music of our lives.

**When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a “judgment and accounting” of its earthly life.**9 But the Heavenly Court only does the “accounting” part; the “judgment” part–that only the soul itself can do.10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself–only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul’s experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden”–i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom ("Gehenna" or “Purgatory”).

The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. **The spiritual pain of gehinom–the soul’s pain in facing the truth of its life–cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. **Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and “bask in the Divine radiance” emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.

For a G-dly soul spawns far more good in its lifetime than evil. The core of the soul is unadulterated goodness; the good we accomplish is infinite, the evil but shallow and superficial. So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven. Furthermore, a soul’s experience of gehinom can be mitigated by the action of his or her children and loved ones, here on earth. Reciting Kaddish and engaging in other good deeds “in merit of” and “for the elevation of” the departed soul means that the soul, in effect, is continuing to act positively upon the physical world, thereby adding to the goodness of its physical lifetime.11

The soul, on its part, remains involved in the lives of those it leaves behind when it departs physical life. The soul of a parent continues to watch over the lives of his/her children and grandchildren, to derive pride (or pain) from their deeds and accomplishments, and to intercede on their behalf before the Heavenly Throne; the same applies to those to whom a soul was connected with bonds of love, friendship and community. In fact, because the soul is no longer constricted by the limitations of the physical state, its relationship with its loved ones is, in many ways, even deeper and more meaningful than before.

However, while the departed soul is aware and cognizant of all that transpires in the lives of its loved ones, the souls remaining in the physical word are limited to what they can perceive via the five senses as facilitated by their physical bodies. We can impact the soul of a departed loved one through our positive actions, but we cannot communicate with it through conventional means (speech, sight, physical contact, etc.) that, prior to its passing, defined the way that we related to each other. (Indeed, the Torah expressly forbids the idolatrous practices of necromancy, mediumism and similar attempts to “make contact” with the world of the dead.) Hence the occurrence of death, while signifying an elevation for the soul of the departed, is experienced as a tragic loss for those it leaves behind."
I welcome your comments.

It’s 2:17 a.m. here. So, goodnight all. :sad_bye:

Anna
 
=Anna Scott;5814552]You said Hell will be “cuntomized to inflict the most severe pain and suffering possible.” How does that fit with the words of Pope John Paul II?
(Emphasis is mine.)
HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II
Hell is the State of Those who Reject God
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”.
  1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. **It is not a punishment imposed externally by God **but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.
Hell is a state of eternal damnation
  1. To describe this reality **Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language **which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).
The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.
Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).
  1. *The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. **This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
**“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. **In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.
We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
  1. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no”, which marks the human creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.

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Respectfully,
Anna
Thanks Anna, GREAT WORK:thumbsup:

Somehow I missed that one. But what I said is essentially the same as JP II. Its eternal, self inflicted and painful.

Thanks again! Love and prayers,

Pat
 
I think the last several posts summerizes things pretty well. There can be different takes on what hell is but there can be no disputing that, whatever Hell is, it is a place profoundly bad and to be avoided.
Whatever imagery is used, it is used to impress (not frighten) the hearer with the horrors of being completely and eternally without God. Once that impression is made, the thing to do is to, “Don’t Look down”, but rather look up to Our Lord and Seek only the light.

Therefore, “raise your eyes unto the hills, from whence you our help comes”, to paraphase the psalmist.

Peace
James
 
Dear friends,

There are two things we can know for certain about hell.
  1. We send ourselves there, God just affirms our decision by a Just judgement of our actions, works, and deeds.
  2. It is a place of Eternal longing and suffering.
Have Mercy on us Oh Lord!
 
I think the last several posts summerizes things pretty well. There can be different takes on what hell is but there can be no disputing that, whatever Hell is, it is a place profoundly bad and to be avoided.
Whatever imagery is used, it is used to impress (not frighten) the hearer with the horrors of being completely and eternally without God. Once that impression is made, the thing to do is to, “Don’t Look down”, but rather look up to Our Lord and Seek only the light.

Therefore, “raise your eyes unto the hills, from whence you our help comes”, to paraphase the psalmist.

Peace
James
James,

I love the way you take whatever the issue is, and point our “eyes” toward God. 🙂

Anna
 
James,

I love the way you take whatever the issue is, and point our “eyes” toward God. 🙂

Anna
Thanks.
Such focus stems from two things.
First is the fact that the Great Saints, as well as Our Dear Lord, taught us to be so focused, in Love and Simplicity. Remember how The Little Flower, St Theresa, sought her “Elevator to Heaven” because she was to small to climb the long stairs of Holiness? She found the elevator in concentrating on Jesus and on Love. Dwelling on other things, while interesting and enlightening at times, will only serve to delay us if we dwell on them too long.
Second is my inability to juggle all of the ins and outs of the various aspects of theology, Law and Practice. I find that such things only serve to confuse me after a while.

Ultimately, my view is that, if we are on that road toward God, everything else is just “scenery”. And since we know that this road is narrow and their is an abyss on either side, we had best keep our eyes firmly fixed ahead. Any “sightseeing” either makes us slow down on our journey to look, or increases our risk of running off into the abyss.

Peace
James
 
I believe in the harps: in a form we can’t conceive right now, they will be our enitlement to join the angels in creating music beyond our dreams. I believe in the halos: again in a form we can’t see yet, they will be the light we glow with. I believe in the clouds: Perhaps they will look like nebulae up close, and paths in all directions of light while we are in them. I believe in the river. I believe in the wings. I believe in the city of clear stones. I believe in the throne. I know I can’t imagine what they will look like or be made of.
I believe, on the other side of the divide, in the fire: In a form we can’t imagine, it is the slow and endless consumption of oneself by an existence interminable yet starving for God’s sustenance. I believe in the worms: Whatever they are like, they are the consumption that never ends by another description. I believe in the pit: It is somewhere in a dimension we don’t perceive, a long falling state, in a panic without comfort or control. I believe in the pitchforks: In a form we can’t conceive of now, they are the pain and force of the fall into hopeless darkness.
I believe in the judgment. It will happen in a set of dimensions where time as we understand it does not apply, and all will be known at once. There will be no way to hide.
I believe in God’s mercy. He will judge us according to several criteria, and what we believe will certainly be one, as well as what we had a chance to believe, how we lived and how we had a chance to live. He will know whether we really tried. He already knows. Let us try to know and believe the truth and follow Gods’ laws.
 
Thanks.
Such focus stems from two things.
First is the fact that the Great Saints, as well as Our Dear Lord, taught us to be so focused, in Love and Simplicity. Remember how The Little Flower, St Theresa, sought her “Elevator to Heaven” because she was to small to climb the long stairs of Holiness? She found the elevator in concentrating on Jesus and on Love. Dwelling on other things, while interesting and enlightening at times, will only serve to delay us if we dwell on them too long.
Second is my inability to juggle all of the ins and outs of the various aspects of theology, Law and Practice. I find that such things only serve to confuse me after a while.

Ultimately, my view is that, if we are on that road toward God, everything else is just “scenery”. And since we know that this road is narrow and their is an abyss on either side, we had best keep our eyes firmly fixed ahead. Any “sightseeing” either makes us slow down on our journey to look, or increases our risk of running off into the abyss.

Peace
James
Beautifully said, James.

I reply upon you to remind us of “Love and Simplicity,” and of the “road toward God,” especially when the debates can become so fierce, and often unproductive. 😊

Anna
 
Beautifully said, James.

I reply upon you to remind us of “Love and Simplicity,” and of the “road toward God,” especially when the debates can become so fierce, and often unproductive. 😊

Anna
Well OK, as long as you promise to remind ME. :rolleyes::D:blush:

Peace
James
 
I believe in the harps: in a form we can’t conceive right now, they will be our enitlement to join the angels in creating music beyond our dreams. I believe in the halos: again in a form we can’t see yet, they will be the light we glow with. I believe in the clouds: Perhaps they will look like nebulae up close, and paths in all directions of light while we are in them. I believe in the river. I believe in the wings. I believe in the city of clear stones. I believe in the throne. I know I can’t imagine what they will look like or be made of.
I believe, on the other side of the divide, in the fire: In a form we can’t imagine, it is the slow and endless consumption of oneself by an existence interminable yet starving for God’s sustenance. I believe in the worms: Whatever they are like, they are the consumption that never ends by another description. I believe in the pit: It is somewhere in a dimension we don’t perceive, a long falling state, in a panic without comfort or control. I believe in the pitchforks: In a form we can’t conceive of now, they are the pain and force of the fall into hopeless darkness.
I believe in the judgment. It will happen in a set of dimensions where time as we understand it does not apply, and all will be known at once. There will be no way to hide.
I believe in God’s mercy. He will judge us according to several criteria, and what we believe will certainly be one, as well as what we had a chance to believe, how we lived and how we had a chance to live. He will know whether we really tried. He already knows. Let us try to know and believe the truth and follow Gods’ laws.
Very interesting description. Does this come primarily from Catechism? Sounds familiar, but can’t quite place it. Could you provide some quotes?

Anna
 
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