What is the best argument to prove the existence of God to Atheists?

[laylow]

What are you offended against?
That Atheists are not open to proof? 20 years of debating is why I say this
is it because I think you need God to have a better life given that nearly half a million people kill themselves in America in a year?

Making generalized statements about people who lack the same beliefs are you is the definition of discrimination. Being offended about being discriminated against seems to be an acceptable reaction. All the half million of people that killed themselves are non-believers? Rick Warren’s son died by suicide, was he a non-believer? And if these people suffered to the point that death was more desirable than living and you are using this as proof of an all-loving god, who presumably could have done something to avoid the outcome, then once again, I fail to see the logic of the Christian belief system.

Hostility comes from pride and in the fact that you hold yourself higher than others who think and believe differently, I reject your belief system because I lived that belief for 30 years and grace took me out of it and opened my mind, my eyes and my senses and the anger left I now try to live a life of love and that is to help others to teach others that their lives are not right until they learn that love is the answer to all things and God is the source of Love.

Lack of a belief system is not a belief system. God is not the default, just because ancient civilizations believed in the concept. I was Catholic for 38 years, my sense is “Love” is no different now as it was then. If anything, it has been enhanced since leaving.

I only fight and argue out of hope that soem will change but as I said 20 years of debating and no one has ever looked at the evidence with an open heart so no need for hostility.

I look at all evidence openly. I do not find the “evidence” for religions to be compelling. You apparently find evidence for all other religions not compelling, accept the one you believe in.

 

[wkj_123]

Mmmm, sure. Mine neither. But if I saw him on the road the next day, and then a bunch of my friends saw him, and then some other people saw him, and then he appeared to hundreds at the same time…

Your argument doesn’t hold water. Plenty of people saw the supposedly risen Jesus, and didn’t recognize him.

Luke 24:13-35
John 21:4
John 20:15

These sightings included disciples and Mary Magdalene. We know that God is not the author of confusion, so it’s not possible he hid his identity from them or changed it somehow. What you see happening is an empty tomb, and the beggining of a legend taking form. You have people spreading word that Jesus is risen, but people are not recognizing the person as Jesus that people are claiming is Jesus. As word spreads it takes on more and more credence. You have supposed sightings popping up all over just like you see in high profile missing persons cases. Couple all this together and voila a religion begins to form.

 

[KJW5551]

You do understand how legends form, right? They take decades if not centuries. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:3 some 3-5 years after Jesus’ death. It is downright intellectually dishonest to speak of legends in such a short time frame.

 

[laylow]

The “visions hypothesis” is as absurd as any other. It really takes a lot of mental jumping jacks for the atheist to try to explain the empty tomb and post-resurrection appearances.

More absurd than proposing someone was raised from the dead?! The “visions hypothesis” when applied to many people I don’t find that compelling. When applied to a few close to Jesus and then persuasion taking over seems much more plausible to me.

And I see no reason to doubt the appearance to the 500. Remember, Paul was writing a mere 3-5 years after Jesus’ death. It would be pretty ballsy to make a claim like that that could be easily refuted if not true. Also where is the Jewish response that says the appearances never happened? They don’t exist.

Not that ballsy. Things like that occurred during those times a lot. Everyone believed in gods, so convincing people wasn’t overly difficult. Paul was a zealous religious freak who wanted everyone to convert since he did. Convincing the educated Romans was challenging, but most never even heard of Jesus. Convincing the peasants was pretty easy I would imagine, especially the ones from Jesus’ area.

Attestations do not equal reality. If they did, why are the Muslims wrong about Muhammad?

 

[KJW5551]

It’s ballsy because it’s an easily refutable claim if not true. If I ran down the streets of NY this morning and said that Jesus appeared to me and 500 other people, yet I couldn’t produce any other witnesses, that would be pretty dumb on my part. Paul says what he says because it happened. And there is no response whatsoever from critics because they know it happened too.

 

[wkj_123]

You do understand how legends form, right? They take decades if not centuries. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:3 some 3-5 years after Jesus’ death. It is downright intellectually dishonest to speak of legends in such a short time frame.

Umm no? You can argue they take a long time to fully form but they begin to form pretty quickly. It’s ridiculous to claim otherwise. An empty tomb and false sightings are the begging, the building blocks of a legend. Your answer still didn’t address anything I said regardless.

 

[laylow]

It’s ballsy because it’s an easily refutable claim if not true. If I ran down the streets of NY this morning and said that Jesus appeared to me and 500 other people, yet I couldn’t produce any other witnesses, that would be pretty dumb on my part.

Easily refuted by whom!? These people generally believed in many gods, god of the sun, god of the rain, god of the harvest, etc. They weren’t particularly looking to refute claims that would seem extraordinary today.

Paul says what he says because it happened. And there is no response whatsoever from critics because they know it happened too.

There are plenty of more plausible responses, you can chose to deny that if you wish. As a critic, if I KNEW it was true, I wouldn’t deny it. I have no motivation to not.

The funny thing is if you get to make all of these leaps and get to the point where you believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, that still doesn’t make him the son of God! Lazarus was supposedly raised from the dead. Hundreds of zombies in the gospel of Matthew were raised. Are they also the sons of God?

 

[laylow]

You should not put so much faith in science as they for the most part belong to the enlightenment movement and only report on secular beliefs that try to hold up old dead theories like evolution.

Evolution is a dead theory? With statements like that, it is virtually impossible not to doubt the trustworthiness of anything you say going forward.

 

[sevenswords]

Making generalized statements about people who lack the same beliefs are you is the definition of discrimination

No I did not and no it is not, making an observation based on experience is not discriminatory in any way.
Rick Warren’s son died by suicide
I don’t know the man and I did not claim that only atheists commit suicide that would be ridiculous.But I do know that people who have a grasp of their faith would never commit suicide as it is a moral sin as we hold the body to be holy and belonging to God, just because you claim to be a Christian does not make you one, I know many Catholics who haven’t a CLUE about Catholicism or God yet they claim to be Catholic do you think they are Catholic? only in name thats it and God has told us he would rather we be cold and forget about religion as we would be frauds just like the many who claim they once were Catholic but are not anymore because they found the truth, this is rubbish as there is no truth outside of the Church teaching as the church is the body of Christ not a man made institution like many protestant denominations…

Lack of a belief system is not a belief system. God is not the default, just because ancient civilizations believed in the concept. I was Catholic for 38 years, my sense is “Love” is no different now as it was then. If anything, it has been enhanced since leaving.

I believe that you were brought up in the Catholic faith and did not follow the teaching of the church as the church teaches the truth and follows to the letter the will of God as it is the depository of faith for the Holy Spirit. The Spirit does not come to 40,000 differ churches to tell them different things, rather he comes to the one church that was established by Christ and holds to tradition as handed down by the Apostles and church Fathers, only a fool would reject the truth for a lie and call it good, you have walked away because you were not grounded in the truth as Christ has only one truth.

I look at all evidence openly. I do not find the “evidence” for religions to be compelling. You apparently find evidence for all other religions not compelling, accept the one you believe in.

I would have to be some kind of fool to except a false religion or belief system, I did not come to Christ he came to me and ever since that day I have struggled to fight sin and temptation and seek to be a better man for myself and my family as I want to pass onto them every truth I can find, in this walk I have studied all religions to some degree and find flaw and fault in them all . But Catholicism has no fault it goes to the beginning of the known creation and says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth etc etc it is the only religion that has God outside of creation and the cause so just from that point alone you can rule out 99% of religions. The others apart from Catholicism have flaws also so the logic or as John Calls the Logos (Christ) is that there is one God and he is allowing us to find him .

 

[Calliope]

Atheism simply refers to lack of belief in a deity, and since there can be so many reasons people don’t believe there is never going to be a one size fits all or best argument. Some folks will need to have a direct personal experience where they sense a deity reaching out personally to them. Others will be moved by philosophical arguments. Others might come to believe after seeing the effects of belief in the lives of those around them.

People who once believed and then became atheists and have found more satisfaction in their lives are unlikely to be swayed by any argument.

I have found most people who believe sense a void that god/God fills in their life, if a person senses no such void, it’s not going to be easy to sell something to them to fill it. Advertising first has to get a person to believe that they need the product being sold and that it will somehow enhance their experience.

Selling toothpaste to someone with no teeth isn’t going to make you rich, but if you can interest them in a set of dentures you might get somewhere.

 

[CelticWarlord]

Two thoughts come to mind, the first from St. Augustine, the second from Dietrich Bonhoeffer;

“If we can comprehend it, then it’s not God”

“If the existence of God can be proven, then he is no more than an idol”

 

[KJW5551]

Cmon, seriously? You know that Lazarus was raised to his same old earthly body and later died again. Jesus was raised to a glorious new body and did not die again.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chab12...of-lazarus-and-the-resurrection-of-jesus/amp/

 

[KJW5551]

According to historians and people who actually study legends they in fact do take decades to form. Period. End of story. Read up.

I didn’t respond to you other point because it was not worth responding to. Jesus body changed when he was resurrected; it is not surprising that he was not IMMEDIATELY recognized. It does not take away from the historical fact that the disciples had real encounters with the resurrected Jesus. You can call them visions, hallucinations, call them anything you want. But just know that you sound ridiculous.

 

[wkj_123]

According to historians and people who actually study legends they in fact do take decades to form. Period. End of story. Read up.

I didn’t respond to you other point because it was not worth responding to. Jesus body changed when he was resurrected; it is not surprising that he was not IMMEDIATELY recognized. It does not take away from the historical fact that the disciples had real encounters with the resurrected Jesus. You can call them visions, hallucinations, call them anything you want. But just know that you sound ridiculous.

Lol have you even read my post? I said begginings. The building blocks of legends. Clearly legends have a beggining. They have a partial root in reality. If you argue they don’t, then that would mean random legends just pop up hundreds of years later with no tie into reality. For the legend of Jesus to form there had to be an empty tomb. There had to be supposed sightings. You are literally arguing that there was no historical Jesus, since your saying there can be no begginings of legends untill hundreds of years later. How ridiculous. Yes they take a long time to form, but the building blocks start to lay quickly. No historian would agree with you.

 

[wkj_123]

You should not put so much faith in science as they for the most part belong to the enlightenment movement and only report on secular beliefs that try to hold up old dead theories like evolution.

Yeah I’m going to have to second that one. This type of statement is really a disqualification from a rational, logical discussion.

 

[KJW5551]

My last word here, because believe it or not arguing with atheists is not my favorite thing in the world to do.

Let’s consider Luke for a moment: he explicitly states that he has examined everything closely from the beginning and is writing a true historical account for Theophilus. In both his Gospel and Acts, he gets all of the “secular” historical details right: dates, historical figures, places, culture, etc. Luke and Acts have been scrutinized time and time again yet remain historically sound.

What this does is it put the atheist in a position where they have to say “Sure, Luke gets all the historical details right, but all that stuff about Jesus? Nonsense.” It’s nothing but pure bias on atheists part. They don’t want to believe so they ignore the evidence right in front of their eyes. There’s a reason why there are 2 billion Christians and only scores of millions of atheists. There’s a reason that millions convert to Christianity each year. There’s a reason people like me believe in Jesus Christ even though we live 2,000 years after he did.

Good day to you.

 

[laylow]

Cmon, seriously? You know that Lazarus was raised to his same old earthly body and later died again. Jesus was raised to a glorious new body and did not die again.

Of course I know what the claims are. But that’s just exactly what they are, more claims. The son of God had to raise from the dead, but no, wait, that not that special, because others did it. So, well, no but he was given a special body. etc etc

 

[laylow]

There’s a reason why there are 2 billion Christians and only scores of millions of atheists. There’s a reason that millions convert to Christianity each year.

By that logic, Islam must be equally as true. It has 1.57 billion followers and is growing more quickly than Christianity.

 

[KJW5551]

Muslim believe in God. Most of them have never heard the Gospel. Many others cannot read. Many who are fortunate enough to be exposed to the Gospel convert to Christianity. See Africa.

Edit: Curious, too that you chose to respond to this point and not the point about Luke being a fantastically reliable historian.

 

[laylow]

But I do know that people who have a grasp of their faith would never commit suicide as it is a moral sin as we hold the body to be holy and belonging to God

Another assumption…

I believe that you were brought up in the Catholic faith and did not follow the teaching of the church as the church teaches the truth and follows to the letter the will of God as it is the depository of faith for the Holy Spirit. The Spirit does not come to 40,000 differ churches to tell them different things, rather he comes to the one church that was established by Christ and holds to tradition as handed down by the Apostles and church Fathers, only a fool would reject the truth for a lie and call it good, you have walked away because you were not grounded in the truth as Christ has only one truth.

Yet another… I lived the faith and never missed a mass of obligation for my entire life, except maybe 2 or 3 due to illness. I abstained from many things “normal” people do. I’m done having a conversation with someone more interested in assuming they know everything instead of listening to what someone is telling them.