What is the "Crisis"?

[peary]

Actually I had two diocease priest use the same language to decribe the Sacramental Presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle…as a 'leftover", their view being that the hosts in the tabernacle are there on reserve for the sick in nursing homes etc. and somehow the Host consecrated at Mass are more ‘real’ ( at least the implication was there)

…it doesn’t make sense in any kind of theological fashion, but apparently that is what they learned in the seminary… and since I was the only one objecting to their language and logic I didn’t get far… I was easily isolated and ostracized by them.

Both Priests are still priests but the first one who had the Tabernacle moved was transferred to another Parish. But the replacement priests have all down played Adoration and the honoring of Christ in the Tabernacle.

. After the church closed in our town the church was absorbed into a larger Parish and the Priests there have all been very liberal. The person in charge of evagelization for the Parish told me sacramentals were unnecessary to our faith and every lent they remove the corpus from the crucifix over the altar for the entire period of Lent. So you can say there is no crucifix in the altar area all Lent. They put up a plain wood cross with purple cloth draped on it…but does that make any sense to anyone?
I tried to talk to the Parish Priest about it at one point and he threated to call the police and put a restraining orer on me…but don’t jump to the conclusion that somehow I was being threatening or angry or any of that because I wasn’t. I was just trying to talk to him about it…

As for moving the tabernacle to the side? Why does that make sense??? All it did was destroy a Spirit of Piety in the church.

Why does locking a rosary group out of the church that has been meeting there for 10 years make sense??? I think the “insurance” excuse was just that, an excuse…

So, forgive, forget and move on… but the lesson is there, all in all as soon as you lessen the importance of the Eucharist in any way you are on the way to losing it.

As to family dinner and time on Sundays replacing Sunady mass I was remembering that in that book I read ( AA1025 TAN publishing co.) which was about the communist agent entering the Priesthood, when he described their plans to destroy the church part of it was to make Sundays into just a family day, so it is ironic that this conversation has headed in that direction.They talked about having the husband in the family preside over the family meal like a priest… Now we haven’t gone that far but can you see the concern?

God Bless, maryJohnz

**It has been my experience that any priest who reacts as strongly as that one did with regard to your simple question is possessed or harrassed by a demon, plain and simple, and you must pray for him daily. There is no other rational explanation, because the reaction is not rational, and reveals a very troubled soul. Also, as long as you have a bishop who is allowing excess liberalism there is really nothing you can do about it except get a group to petition the Vatican, which does have some merit.

Communist agents entering the priesthood had more to do with the problems the Church had in Europe than here in the U.S. The U.S. problem is that many seminaries throughout the country became havens for a homosexual culture which has resulted in the recent sex scandal crisis, and incredibly poor foundation for priests.**

 

[Cat]

Forgive me if this has already been posted in this thread.

I think the “crisis” in the Catholic Church is that too many Catholic laypeople are trying to do the work of the Christ-appointed Pope and the Church-ordained Clergy by interpreting Scriptures, restating church doctrine, and insisting upon certain church practices according to their OWN preferences rather than simply obeying the dictums of the Holy Father and the Holy Mother Church.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Forgive me if this has already been posted in this thread.

I think the “crisis” in the Catholic Church is that too many Catholic laypeople are trying to do the work of the Christ-appointed Pope and the Church-ordained Clergy by interpreting Scriptures, restating church doctrine, and insisting upon certain church practices according to their OWN preferences rather than simply obeying the dictums of the Holy Father and the Holy Mother Church.

If the laity are doing that then they are wrong but when you have researched Church teaching and recognize that what is being done does not make sense according to church teaching then as a lay person you have a responsibility to speak yp. The problem is that most lay people feel more comfortable being the obedient
person in the pew and if there is a very liberal priest making illicit changes they can use that to their advantage. No one really wants to be a 'trouble maker" in the end. people want to believe this is a real “family” and that the clergy can be trusted…

I know I did.

I read somewhere that there is adifferenc ebetween conservative Catholics who will just be quiet and obedient to the Pastor no matter what he is doing and then orthodox catholics who want things to be in the right order in the church and when they see abuses they do speak out, usually to their own detriment since they are not in the power position.

I think Jesus was like that because he was in a sense a “lay person”. not one of the priests in the temple and he spoke out about abuses and got in trouble for it.

MaryJohnZ

 

[MaryJohnZ]

**It has been my experience that any priest who reacts as strongly as that one did with regard to your simple question is possessed or harrassed by a demon, plain and simple, and you must pray for him daily. There is no other rational explanation, because the reaction is not rational, and reveals a very troubled soul. Also, as long as you have a bishop who is allowing excess liberalism there is really nothing you can do about it except get a group to petition the Vatican, which does have some merit.

Communist agents entering the priesthood had more to do with the problems the Church had in Europe than here in the U.S. The U.S. problem is that many seminaries throughout the country became havens for a homosexual culture which has resulted in the recent sex scandal crisis, and incredibly poor foundation for priests.**

The problem is there are not enough people who would want to sign a group petition and the Bishop would not do anything.

I did learn one thing…if you ever go in to talk to a Priest about something bring a friend so there are two of you and there is a witness to the conversation. I believe that is mentioned in the bible as well…

maryJohnZ

 

[Conservative]

The only day of the week that ALL the members of our family are not normally expected to work outside of the home is Sunday. Even on Sunday the animals need cared for, and the wood burner needs fed to keep us warm in the winter. We all need to eat and since out Monday starts with my getting up at 4:AM the cleanup from our Sunday must be done on Sunday. So yes if we get a chance to go to Mass as a family (us and our children’s families)and it it happens to be “vigil” Mass then that is the one we go to we take up two pews when this happens.

We don’t shop on Sunday except in an emergency (medical needs come to mind). We do go to the park, biking, swimming in summer and other family outings as does our priest after Mass.

KathleenElsie -
That’s my point. There are household chores that are necessary to be done on Sunday, such as the ones you’ve listed. These are not the the kind of work that is referred to. Emergency shopping on Sunday is not forbidden.

 

[Brother_John]

Forgive me if this has already been posted in this thread.

I think the “crisis” in the Catholic Church is that too many Catholic laypeople are trying to do the work of the Christ-appointed Pope and the Church-ordained Clergy by interpreting Scriptures, restating church doctrine, and insisting upon certain church practices according to their OWN preferences rather than simply obeying the dictums of the Holy Father and the Holy Mother Church.

:tiphat: :bowdown: :clapping:

 

[Father_Tom]

I did learn one thing…if you ever go in to talk to a Priest about something bring a friend so there are two of you and there is a witness to the conversation.

The fastest way to have a Priest “tune you out”, is to show up at his office with a “witness”.

The lack of charity and understanding displayed by many parishoners is appalling. To paraphrase a prior post, it would appear that many parishoners have placed themselves as authorities on Church teaching, above parish Priests, Bishops, and even on occasion, The Holy Father himself.

As I stated on one of my original posts on CAF, if we were to discuss issues here, or in our parishes with a spirit of unity and understanding, rather than seeking “victory”, a more productive parish environment would result.

Fr. T

 

[Like]

Forgive me if this has already been posted in this thread.

I think the “crisis” in the Catholic Church is that too many Catholic laypeople are trying to do the work of the Christ-appointed Pope and the Church-ordained Clergy by interpreting Scriptures, restating church doctrine, and insisting upon certain church practices according to their OWN preferences rather than simply obeying the dictums of the Holy Father and the Holy Mother Church.

How many are “TOO MANY”?
It is easy to see where you are coming from after 46 years in evangelical Protestant Churches.

If the laity are doing that then they are wrong but when you have researched Church teaching and recognize that what is being done does not make sense according to church teaching then as a lay person you have a responsibility to speak yp. The problem is that most lay people feel more comfortable being the obedient
person in the pew and if there is a very liberal priest making illicit changes they can use that to their advantage. No one really wants to be a 'trouble maker" in the end. people want to believe this is a real “family” and that the clergy can be trusted…

I know I did.

I read somewhere that there is adifferenc ebetween conservative Catholics who will just be quiet and obedient to the Pastor no matter what he is doing and then orthodox catholics who want things to be in the right order in the church and when they see abuses they do speak out, usually to their own detriment since they are not in the power position.

I think Jesus was like that because he was in a sense a “lay person”. not one of the priests in the temple and he spoke out about abuses and got in trouble for it.

MaryJohnZ

I agree with Mary!

:tiphat: :bowdown: :clapping:

Tip of the hat, clapping, bowing down to Cat?!?

The fastest way to have a Priest “tune you out”, is to show up at his office with a “witness”.

The lack of charity and understanding displayed by many parishoners is appalling. To paraphrase a prior post, it would appear that many parishoners have placed themselves as authorities on Church teaching, above parish Priests, Bishops, and even on occasion, The Holy Father himself.

As I stated on one of my original posts on CAF, if we were to discuss issues here, or in our parishes with a spirit of unity and understanding, rather than seeking “victory”, a more productive parish environment would result.

Fr. T

Curious, are you a priest or are you just using it for your handle?

 

[peary]

The fastest way to have a Priest “tune you out”, is to show up at his office with a “witness”.

The lack of charity and understanding displayed by many parishoners is appalling. To paraphrase a prior post, it would appear that many parishoners have placed themselves as authorities on Church teaching, above parish Priests, Bishops, and even on occasion, The Holy Father himself.

As I stated on one of my original posts on CAF, if we were to discuss issues here, or in our parishes with a spirit of unity and understanding, rather than seeking “victory”, a more productive parish environment would result.

Fr. T

**Hey, Fr. Tom -
Don’t you DARE excuse your clerical brothers from their own arrogance and know-it-all attitude. The lack of charity and understanding displayed by MANY (not all) priests to their own parishoners is an embarrassment. And may I remind you that, in many many instances, it is clericalism that has divided parishes with a spirit of disunity rather than anything the laity do. Make holy the laity and you make holy the world for Christ. If priests would follow what the Church teaches, making sure that those under their care are properly catechized in the Faith, and proper rubrics followed during Mass instead of injecting their own personal touches every time you turn around, it would contribute to a sense of better unity and understanding. The days of the ignorant lay person are over. People are too educated to be talked down to anymore. **

 

[japhy]

The lack of charity and understanding displayed by many parishoners is appalling. To paraphrase a prior post, it would appear that many parishoners have placed themselves as authorities on Church teaching, above parish Priests, Bishops, and even on occasion, The Holy Father himself.

I can’t speak for others, but my frame of reference is concern from seeing things that run contrary to what I’ve been taught (or learned on my own, if there’s no formal liturgical catechesis offered). When I read one thing and see something else (not just different but opposed), I might be surprised. When I see many such things in a single celebration, I become alarmed. And when I see them happening with regularity, I find it hard to be silent. I don’t always handle myself appropriately in these cases. But the fact remains that the longer I see an issue unresolved, the more restless I become. Sometimes I initiate dialog directly; sometimes I present the issue to a mediator, like my pastor (since that particular issue had to do with the practices of regularly-scheduled visiting priests at our parish). Of course, it is never right for us to “place [our]selves as authorities on Church teaching above” our deacons, priests, or bishops, but all the Catholic faithful have liturgical rights and should exercise them with due charity when they are aware of abusive or questionable practices.

As I stated on one of my original posts on CAF, if we were to discuss issues here, or in our parishes with a spirit of unity and understanding, rather than seeking “victory”, a more productive parish environment would result.

I agree we need to enter into dialog with the “spirit of unity and understanding”, but we also need to seek mutual victory. If we simply focus on what is already unifying and overlook existing division, it’s a false unity. (This is especially true in the realm of ecumenism, as Pope John Paul II explained in his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, n. 36: “Full communion of course will have to come about through the acceptance of the whole truth into which the Holy Spirit guides Christ’s disciples. Hence all forms of reductionism or facile “agreement” must be absolutely avoided. Serious questions must be resolved, for if not, they will reappear at another time, either in the same terms or in a different guise.” He makes a similar point in n. 97 when he talks about the acceptance of the ministry and primacy of Peter as “an essential requisite of full and visible communion”. The documents of the Second Vatican Council that deal with unity, such as Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio, say the same thing.) In practical terms, this means approaching a divisive issue in charity and respect, but seeking a resolution to the issue and not a fruitless dialog. Overemphasis on existing unity and underemphasis on potential (un-realized) unity can lead to laxity in those realms that currently enjoy unity, resulting in further discord.

 

[catharina]

Hey, Fr. Tom -
Don’t you DARE excuse your clerical brothers from their own arrogance and know-it-all attitude. The lack of charity and understanding displayed by MANY (not all) priests to their own parishoners is an embarrassment. And may I remind you that, in many many instances, it is clericalism that has divided parishes with a spirit of disunity rather than anything the laity do. Make holy the laity and you make holy the world for Christ. If priests would follow what the Church teaches, making sure that those under their care are properly catechized in the Faith, and proper rubrics followed during Mass instead of injecting their own personal touches every time you turn around, it would contribute to a sense of better unity and understanding. The days of the ignorant lay person are over. People are too educated to be talked down to anymore.

I feel terribly sorry for priests who have to deal with people like you.

 

[mgrfin]

I can’t speak for others, but my frame of reference is concern from seeing things that run contrary to what I’ve been taught (or learned on my own, if there’s no formal liturgical catechesis offered). When I read one thing and see something else (not just different but opposed), I might be surprised. When I see many such things in a single celebration, I become alarmed. And when I see them happening with regularity, I find it hard to be silent. I don’t always handle myself appropriately in these cases. But the fact remains that the longer I see an issue unresolved, the more restless I become. Sometimes I initiate dialog directly; sometimes I present the issue to a mediator, like my pastor (since that particular issue had to do with the practices of regularly-scheduled visiting priests at our parish). Of course, it is never right for us to “place [our]selves as authorities on Church teaching above” our deacons, priests, or bishops, but all the Catholic faithful have liturgical rights and should exercise them with due charity when they are aware of abusive or questionable practices.

I agree we need to enter into dialog with the “spirit of unity and understanding”, but we also need to seek mutual victory. If we simply focus on what is already unifying and overlook existing division, it’s a false unity. (This is especially true in the realm of ecumenism, as Pope John Paul II explained in his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, n. 36: “Full communion of course will have to come about through the acceptance of the whole truth into which the Holy Spirit guides Christ’s disciples. Hence all forms of reductionism or facile “agreement” must be absolutely avoided. Serious questions must be resolved, for if not, they will reappear at another time, either in the same terms or in a different guise.” He makes a similar point in n. 97 when he talks about the acceptance of the ministry and primacy of Peter as “an essential requisite of full and visible communion”. The documents of the Second Vatican Council that deal with unity, such as Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio, say the same thing.) In practical terms, this means approaching a divisive issue in charity and respect, but seeking a resolution to the issue and not a fruitless dialog. Overemphasis on existing unity and underemphasis on potential (un-realized) unity can lead to laxity in those realms that currently enjoy unity, resulting in further discord.

"Sed quae stulta sunt mundi elegit Deus ut confundat sapientes et infirma mundi elegit Deus ut confundat fortia"

pax

 

[Brother_John]

"Sed quae stulta sunt mundi elegit Deus ut confundat sapientes et infirma mundi elegit Deus ut confundat fortia"

pax

Didn’t understand a thing you said…must be a private joke.

 

[peary]

I feel terribly sorry for priests who have to deal with people like you.

Catharina - you don’t “get it” and I doubt you ever will. It’s attitudes such as yours which has also allowed the terrible sex scandals and divisions to go on in the Church. Priests and I get along fine, believe me.

 

[catharina]

Catharina - you don’t “get it” and I doubt you ever will. It’s attitudes such as yours which has also allowed the terrible sex scandals and divisions to go on in the Church. Priests and I get along fine, believe me.

No doubt your relationship with priests (and prayers for them) is refelected in this sentiment of yours?

Don't you DARE excuse your clerical brothers from their own arrogance and know-it-all attitude. The lack of charity and understanding displayed by MANY (not all) priests to their own parishoners is an embarrassment. And may I remind you that, in many many instances, it is clericalism that has divided parishes with a spirit of disunity rather than anything the laity do. ~~~


Sure it is.

 

[mgrfin]

Didn’t understand a thing you said…must be a private joke.

It is just another line from 1 Cor, from which you had already quoted in latin. I just assumed you understood latin.

“But the foolish things of this world hath God chosen, that he might confound the wise; amd the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he might confound the strong”

Charity to all those who post here, and we remember them in our prayers.

peace

 

[elt1956]

"Sed quae stulta sunt mundi elegit Deus ut confundat sapientes et infirma mundi elegit Deus ut confundat fortia"

pax

No doubt your relationship with priests (and prayers for them) is refelected in this sentiment of yours?

Don't you DARE excuse your clerical brothers from their own arrogance and know-it-all attitude. The lack of charity and understanding displayed by MANY (not all) priests to their own parishoners is an embarrassment. And may I remind you that, in many many instances, it is clericalism that has divided parishes with a spirit of disunity rather than anything the laity do. ~~~


Sure it is.

Boy, oh boy Catherina are you in the soup now!!! And mine is even thicker because I think you are more than right.

 

[elt1956]

Boy, oh boy Catherina are you in the soup now!!! And mine is even thicker because I think you are more than right.

Forgot to add
Pone, Domine, custodiam ori meo, et ostium circumstantiae labiis meis. and gasp!!! I am an inferior being, one of THOSE independent women. I am sure not all priests have the same attitude hopefully as most did in MY day. So my apologies to them. But I stand by ya Cahterina, in most things, anyway. That independent stuff, you know.

 

[DustinsDad]

…“But the foolish things of this world hath God chosen, that he might confound the wise; amd the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he might confound the strong”…

And this is your response to post 190? Why are you here mgrfin? Seriously.

DD%between%

 

[peary]

No doubt your relationship with priests (and prayers for them) is refelected in this sentiment of yours?

Don't you DARE excuse your clerical brothers from their own arrogance and know-it-all attitude. The lack of charity and understanding displayed by MANY (not all) priests to their own parishoners is an embarrassment. And may I remind you that, in many many instances, it is clericalism that has divided parishes with a spirit of disunity rather than anything the laity do. ~~~


Sure it is.

Like I said, you just don’t “get it” and probably never will.