What is the 'great apostasy' claimed by Mormons?

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TexanKnight said:
Nice try. But I did not say the reformation was evidence.

I said the incredible plethora of mind-blowing conduct that led to the reformation is the apostasy.

But thank you for your argument…you have chastised me when I have taken that tact. 🙂
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But yet you have also said that behavior of individuals is not an indicator whether or not a church is true…paraphrasing.

How much sin does it take for an apostasy? At what point does God give up on us? How much sin is too much, and don’t you think given enough time the Mormon church leaders will fill up the quota (whatever it is)? Do you think God is a fickle and frail creature that is scared off by sin? How is it God can call you, a sinner, to Him but when it comes to any other Catholic, God has left the building? Do you really think the Bride of Christ is beyond redemption, but you personally are not?

The Protestant temptation is that Jesus abandoned His bride, making it necessary for Christians to figure out where He went. The claim is based on a belief that our sins drive away Jesus, when Jesus showed us on the cross that our redemption is fulfilled in Him. Just because you give up on sinners, does not mean Jesus does.

I was using your “logic” to demonstrate how illogical it is.
 
If Mormonism were truly a restoration, because of a so-called apostasy in the 1st century, Mormonism would look more like Judaism. Jesus lived and died as a Jew. He was not setting out to create a whole new religion. It’s true that Universal church developed over time, but it’s also true that Christ’s Jewish way of living is still heard in echo in it’s liturgy, in Her ancient traditions. Same with the Orthodox.
 
Just wondering! Is this the same Texan that used to be on here defending our Catholic faith! How sad.
 
CarolNoel said:
Just wondering! Is this the same Texan that used to be on here defending our Catholic faith! How sad.
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Yes. Same guy. If I am not mistaken he was Catholic (or some other Christian denomination), then LDS, then Catholic, now LDS again?

Some pilgrimages are marked by all kind of turmoil for a life time. Just pray for him. 🙂
 
Marie5890 said:
Yes. Same guy. If I am not mistaken he was Catholic (or some other Christian denomination), then LDS, then Catholic, now LDS again?

Some pilgrimages are marked by all kind of turmoil for a life time. Just pray for him. 🙂
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I was raised Lutheran…but not by choice. I became LDS…lost my testimony and left. Later, I became Catholic. I was Catholic 13 years

The journey is over. I am LDS again. Not sad!
 
That was twice I have gotten banned responding to LW. I simply will have to realize what that means and no longer respond to him.

I am not interested in fighting. I said many many times that we should discuss what we agree on…not what divides us. Believers in God are under attack and it is best to be side by side…not facing in fighting
 
Marie5890 said:
If Mormonism were truly a restoration, because of a so-called apostasy in the 1st century, Mormonism would look more like Judaism. Jesus lived and died as a Jew. He was not setting out to create a whole new religion. It’s true that Universal church developed over time, but it’s also true that Christ’s Jewish way of living is still heard in echo in it’s liturgy, in Her ancient traditions. Same with the Orthodox.
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The Jewishness of Catholicism is quite evident throughout its sacred liturgies and rites, as well as its doctrines. I find that the Catholic and Orthodox liturgies harken back to the ancient Jewish tabernacle and temple moreso than the LDS temple, having experienced all three. As I’ve mentioned in many of my posts, the temple concept was something that I enjoyed about Mormonism. When I really delved into temple theology, really read Margaret Barker’s works, etc., I found that everything that I liked about LDS ideas related to the temple were found in Catholicism, but in ways that echo ancient Judaism to a remarkable degree.
 
zaffiroborant said:
This is bashing.
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Was it? It was in a response to a thread…about why I believe there was an apostasy…I thought, given the topic, it was an answer. And a very soft one I did not list everything…I did not enumerate anything I just mentioned traditions.

And MUCH less bashing than what others were saying TO me.

But I suppose you are unable to see that.
 
TexanKnight said:
Was it? It was in a response to a thread…about why I believe there was an apostasy…I thought, given the topic, it was an answer. And a very soft one I did not list everything…I did not enumerate anything I just mentioned traditions.

And MUCH less bashing than what others were saying TO me.

But I suppose you are unable to see that.
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Let me ask you something. Joseph Smith arrived on the scene in the first half of the 1800s. OK. That’s about 1800 years after Christ.

With regards to Jesus, we have His Apostles, who ate, slept, drank, with him and spent three years in His company, absorbing His teachings. After that, we have documents like the Didache from the 70s, still in the Apostolic Age. We have the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, some of whom personally knew the Apostles and reiterated what we already see in Sacred Scripture and additionally transmitted the oral tradition that the Apostles knew (the Apostles’ culture was very Jewish, so an oral tradition developing wouldn’t be odd by any means). All of this is retained in the Catholic Church, as well as the other ancient Apostolic churches not in communion with Rome that have legitimate Apostolic Succession.

All of these things seem to be logically and historically connected to Jesus – when then, did a Great Apostasy occur? 🤷 From a historical point of view, it makes no sense to speak of a Great Apostasy.
 
zaffiroborant said:
This is bashing.
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Or uncharitable
I also felt like I was watching a Monty Python skit when one character denies the obvious.
LivingWaters7 said:
You are entitled to your own personal beliefs. However many do believe that because the apostles were supposedly not able to ordain successor apostles, the Melchizedek priesthood authority died out, and the apostasy occurred.
TexanKnight;13697018:
Many? Perhaps. Do you have evidence as to “many”?
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LivingWaters7 said:
Perhaps LDS.org, your church’s website, for a start?

lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-0/lesson-3?lang=eng
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lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/the-true-and-living-church?lang=eng
lds.org/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual/chapter-3-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng
lds.org/liahona/2005/02/what-happened-to-christs-church?lang=eng
lds.org/ensign/1984/12/early-signs-of-the-apostasy?lang=eng

It is quite a common LDS belief that a major reason for the apostasy was the belief that the apostles were unable to ordain successors, and the Melchizedek priesthood died out on earth. I see this type of argument all the time, I’m not sure why it is in dispute.
TexanKnight said:
ok…I understand…you can’t support “many”
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Micosil said:
Let me ask you something. Joseph Smith arrived on the scene in the first half of the 1800s. OK. That’s about 1800 years after Christ.

With regards to Jesus, we have His Apostles, who ate, slept, drank, with him and spent three years in His company, absorbing His teachings. After that, we have documents like the Didache from the 70s, still in the Apostolic Age. We have the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, some of whom personally knew the Apostles and reiterated what we already see in Sacred Scripture and additionally transmitted the oral tradition that the Apostles knew (the Apostles’ culture was very Jewish, so an oral tradition developing wouldn’t be odd by any means). All of this is retained in the Catholic Church, as well as the other ancient Apostolic churches not in communion with Rome that have legitimate Apostolic Succession.

All of these things seem to be logically and historically connected to Jesus – when then, did a Great Apostasy occur? 🤷 From a historical point of view, it makes no sense to speak of a Great Apostasy.
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After the apostles, I am sure you know about the things that went on with selling indulgences, inquisition, anti-depressants, etc. The list is long and I have no desire to list the many, many things that went on against God’s law that I believe resulted in the authority being pulled. If you are not aware of these things, I recommend that you study Catholic history. Be blessed
 
TexanKnight said:
After the apostles, I am sure you know about the things that went on with selling indulgences, inquisition, anti-depressants, etc. The list is long and I have no desire to list the many, many things that went on against God’s law that I believe resulted in the authority being pulled. If you are not aware of these things, I recommend that you study Catholic history. Be blessed
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“anti-depressants”?

My library obviously has a lacuna (if not more) in it.
 
JustaServant said:
What word were you trying to type?
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To be honest, I can’t remember. I had a train of thought going at the time. Since then, I have made other posts and have spent the last 2 hours reading legal documents while working on Discovery. Oh well. Maybe it will come to me…
 
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