What is the most ancient rite close to Jesus Time?

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Knowledge of Konkani isn’t a lifestyle accessory of the vast majority of Americans, nor for that matter, anyone outside of Goa and its immediate vicinity. A friend of mine spoke it as his first language, that’s how I picked this up.

there’s a community in India called " Mangalorean Catholics"- they are Latin Rite Catholics from India who speak Konkani. Most of them were converted by Portuguese missionaries in the 15th/16th centuries. And many have those Portuguese sounding last names such as D’Souza and Fernandes.

I’m pretty sure Indian-American Dinesh D’Souza is from this community.

My friend was probably of this ethnicity. He had a Portuguese last name, which apparently was adopted, his father was a Hindu convert.

 

[Alexandria2020]

My friend was probably of this ethnicity. He had a Portuguese last name, which apparently was adopted, his father was a Hindu convert.

he might be from a recent convert family in that case.

the Mangalorean Catholics were converted 400-500 years ago. many of the 16 million Latin Rite Catholics in India were converted by Portuguese or other missionaries. Even Cardinal Oswald Gracias is from this community, and his name has that Portuguese touch. There’s a lot of Catholics in Northeast India as well, but they all converted through works of the missionaries within the last 100-120 years.

The Catholics of the Indian state of Kerala are in a unique category - as they were already Christians (members of the Church of the East) upon the arrival of the Portuguese. And once they joined in communion with Rome their faction became the Eastern Catholic Syro-Malabar Church (about 3-4 million). Interestingly, the Portuguese converted many of the Hindus of the coastal regions in Kerala as well - who became Latin Rite Catholic. So Kerala is home to both the Latin and Syro-Malabar churches.

Then there’s the Malankara Catholic faction- the group from the Malankara Orthodox Church that joined in communion with Rome in 1930. They are rather small with a pop. of 400k or so.

Overall India is home to almost 20 million Catholics - which is around the population of Australia. It’s on par with Germany which is home to some 20-25 million Catholics. Many people in the West aren’t aware of the number of Catholics in India. Reminds me of my cousin’s story- as he was crossing the US/Canadian border in 2001 (just after 9/11)- and his name is George- one of the customs/border patrol agents were shocked that his name was George but looked Indian and had an Indian passport. He thought it was a fake passport or something fraudulent. Thankfully things did get sorted out.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

would that be something like Fr Heilman’s OF Mass at St Mary’s Pine Bluff?

Yes, it’s what I mean when I said “Novus Ordo” in above context.

Anyhow, while I do indeed think that Novus Ordo has stuff very similar to early Liturgy (or Liturgies), I am by no means saying they are identical or that there is no difference. Just to be clear

 

[Maximian]

No. There is no evidence that Priests faced the people. On the contrary, Origen wrote around 230 AD:

“the east is the only direction we turn to when we pour out prayer, “

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Correct. From what I’ve read there is no evidence that the priest faced the people. Nor is there evidence that he faced away from the people. The early Church was more concerned with facing literal (not “liturgical”) East. In basilicas like St. Peter’s, for example, the entire congregation would turn and face East (out the doors) during the consecration. This means that they’d have their backs to the altar!

 

[Alexandria2020]

the ordinary form only came about by 1969/70 right? so pretty much through the 60s the TLM was the norm?
(just wondering)

 

[CathBoy1]

the ordinary form only came about by 1969/70 right? so pretty much through the 60s the TLM was the norm?
(just wondering)

Through the 50s TLM was the norm, the NO started to be implemented en masse during the 60s

 

[Alexandria2020]

Gotcha, so for many of the older adults I know (born in late 50s and 60s)- my parents generation- they would have not much clue about the EF as the OF was implemented during their childhoods.

 

[CathBoy1]

Depends, I have relatives born in 64 that remember attending Mass in the EF up until the mid 70s, the OF was in full swing by the early 70s.

 

[Anesti33]

Alexandria2020:

the ordinary form only came about by 1969/70 right? so pretty much through the 60s the TLM was the norm?
(just wondering)

Through the 50s TLM was the norm, the NO started to be implemented en masse during the 60s

Actually the first Ordinary Form missal was promulgated in 1970.
The last Extraordinary Form missal was in 1962.
Between those dates, Vatican II happened (1962-1965), and as the Church began to implement the reforms, various transitional forms of the Mass were experimented with. I believe the first change was to translate the Roman Canon into English.

A Look at the "Actual Mass" of Vatican II: the 1965 Missal - Community in Mission

 

[CathBoy1]

Actually the first Ordinary Form missal was promulgated in 1970.
The last Extraordinary Form missal was in 1962.
Between those dates, Vatican II happened (1962-1965), and as the Church began to implement the reforms, various transitional forms of the Mass were experimented with. I believe the first change was to translate the Roman Canon into English.

Community in Mission – 29 Jan 15

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A Look at the “Actual Mass” of Vatican II: the 1965 Missal - Community in…​

A couple of weeks ago I wrote a cautionary article aimed at my traditionally-minded brethren saying, among other things, that we ought to be careful in identifying the Ordinary Form of the Mass (1970 Missal and beyond) as the “Mass of Vatican II.”…

1965, as I said the Mass began changing in the 60s, TLM was phased out (for the most part) by the mid-70s.

 

[Alexandria2020]

1965, as I said the Mass began changing in the 60s, TLM was phased out (for the most part) by the mid-70s.

explains why the SSPX came about in the early 70s. for people attached to the TLM I’m sure the changing times were a shock.

 

[CathBoy1]

for people attached to the TLM I’m sure the changing times were a shock.

Indeed, though they didn’t necessarily have to be attached to the TLM as we understand it today, they were just attached to Mass in general as the TLM was the only Mass available to most (Latin) Catholics.
My father reminisced that one day it was a Latin Mass the next it was in English and that the New Mass was quite different than the previous Mass, he relates that it was more than a bit jarring.

For many Catholics like my father, there wasn’t much information or warning that the Mass was changing at all (ahh the pre-internet era).

My dad tells the story of how my grandfather would seek out diocesan priests (I’m not sure he had ever even heard of groups like the SSPX) who were willing and or able to do the TLM, but by the early 80s was unable to find any that could or would and so he begrudgingly started to attend the New Mass, up until that point he had only attended the NO less than a handful of times.

 

[Alexandria2020]

For many Catholics like my father, there wasn’t much information or warning that the Mass was changing at all (ahh the pre-internet era).

how did the new type of altar come about, especially in those older churches? did they just readjust it like that during the 70s? to have a versus populum Mass.

I’m a Syro-Malabar Catholic. and this change had a even bizarre effect on the Syro-Malabar Church. Many of the Syro-Malabar eparchies that were pro-Latin I suppose changed to those free standing altars to have the liturgy done versus populum just like the OF Mass. Externally they resemble the OF Mass.

 

[CathBoy1]

Some left a high altar and placed a new altar in front of it and some done what is called wreck-o-vations,
Tearing out communion rail’s and high altars and replaced it with a new altar.

The so called wreck-o-vations should’ve never happened it was an awful shame.

 

[Alexandria2020]

is it true when some people say the versus populum was first used by the Lutherans and the Anglicans?

 

[CathBoy1]

That gets a little more iffy, but generally yes protestants were using versus populum widespread on a large scale for quite some time before us Catholics.

 

[Alexandria2020]

so I suppose, since the Charismatic movement also got a huge support within Catholicism in the 70s, along with the changes to the liturgy, in a way the Church was trying to compete with Protestants. I guess the Church feared a lot of people would convert to Protestant denominations, especially Pentecostalism and such.

 

[CathBoy1]

so I suppose, since the Charismatic movement also got a huge support within Catholicism in the 70s, along with the changes to the liturgy, in a way the Church was trying to compete with Protestants. I guess the Church feared a lot of people would convert to Protestant denominations, especially Pentecostalism and such.

Some view it that way, I would not personally…

…but I do believe that it brought us closer to what protestant churches were doing.

 

[ksb1020]

What sources do we have to know how the liturgy was celebrated first at Rome? Well, maybe not first as it might not have been written down because of the persecution, but what are our sources for the earliest Roman liturgy? (Really out of my depth here, I’m basically clueless when it comes to this stuff)