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ksb1020
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I’m a native Urdu/Hindi speaker, let me know if you need some resources, I’m currently teaching my fiancee the language
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Alexandria2020
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in terms of the Latin/Roman liturgy - I’ve heard it was initially in Greek. and then later on switched to Latin.
What is remarkable about these early liturgies is how formal they were despite the fact that they were conducted under less-than-ideal circumstances.
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TMC
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Hmm, with all respect to the author, that is pretty thinly sourced. He is making some pretty strong claims based on a single document that looks like it was written at least 200 years after house churches were first implemented.
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ksb1020
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Thank you for the article, very interesting read. Above, people have said that the way the Mass changed after Vatican 2 was a move towards the earlier liturgy practiced in the Roman rite. If so, that’s really cool! Do you know anything about that, if so, which changes were actually intended as a return to early liturgy?
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Alexandria2020
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many of the above posters have said the earliest liturgies were not versus populum (priest facing people). anyway I’m not much of an expert on the Roman Rite. I’m Eastern Catholic (Syro-Malabar).
Alexandria2020:
No, not at all but neither is Ordinary Form… not in the normative Missal at least.
To correct myself, I think Ordinary Form in it’s pure form is very close to earliest Liturgies. So that still means Ad Orientem and things for which Ordinary Form was written- not necessarily all things that are permitted (and not necessarily what became popular).
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Vico
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The oldest written record is the Apostolic Constitutions (375- 380 A.D.) thought to come from Antioch. There is a complete Divine Liturgy in Volume VIII.
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Alexandria2020
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that diagram shows that the Maronites of having a connection with East Syriacs? But they are always classified in the West Syriac (Antiochian) family
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Vico
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The Maronites straddled the areas of Antioch and Edessa.
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Alexandria2020
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so is it accurate to say they are a mix of West and East Syriac?
especially since they do not have a counterpart church in the East.
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Vico
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Seleucia-Ctesiphon was the center of the Assyrian (East Syrian) tradition (Chaldean).Vico:
so is it accurate to say they are a mix of West and East Syriac?
especially since they do not have a counterpart church in the East.
There were three groups in the Antioch-Edessa area.
- Maronites (Syriac)
- Melkites (Greek)
- Syriac Oriental Orthodox (Non-Chalcedonians)
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Alexandria2020
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So does it make sense to say the See of Antioch gave way to the West Syriac, Byzantine and East Syriac rites? Then they separated to Chalcedonian (Byzantine), non-Chalcedonian (West Syriac) and the Persian Church (East Syriacs- in Persian territory).
During the Acacian schism both the West Syriacs and the Byzantines were in communion with each other.
During the Acacian schism both the West Syriacs and the Byzantines were in communion with each other.
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BartholomewB
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In post #13 on ths thread you can read what it says about the liturgy in the Didache, written before 150, possibly before 100. It’s the oldest text we have on the subject.
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Chet1
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One of the oldest is the Sarum Rite, (now defunct in the Catholic Church,) it was the English Mass prior to the Reformation. It was introduced into England in 1078 by Bishop Osmund of Salisbury, (Sarum, is the Angli-Saxon name of Salisbury.) The Sarum rite is still celebrated in a few places in England and the United States. It is the liturgy of Western Orthodoxy, under the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, you might hear it referred to as the Anglo-Catholic Mass. I’ve attached a link to Saint Mark’s Western Orthodox Parish in Denver Colorado http//westernorthodox.com/
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dochawk
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I think that both the Liturgy of Addai and Mari and the Liturgy of St. James are second century, predating the liturgical use of Latin in Rome.
The records don’t really exist to make a definitive statement on which is older, as I understand it, but opinions abound . . .
given that the church in Rome didn’t start using latin until the third and fourth centuries, that seems “unlikely” . . .
As far as liturgical change, I’ll not that the EC in the US started well before VII. But rather than suddenly switching languages with a new liturgy, it was done piecemeal with the same liturgy. A prayer would start being said twice, once in Slavonic and once in English. Which prayer it would be would vary, with more being added over time.
The records don’t really exist to make a definitive statement on which is older, as I understand it, but opinions abound . . .
given that the church in Rome didn’t start using latin until the third and fourth centuries, that seems “unlikely” . . .
As far as liturgical change, I’ll not that the EC in the US started well before VII. But rather than suddenly switching languages with a new liturgy, it was done piecemeal with the same liturgy. A prayer would start being said twice, once in Slavonic and once in English. Which prayer it would be would vary, with more being added over time.
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Alexandria2020
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Wow that’s cool.
So is the Tridentine Mass employed in Western Orthodoxy? Would that be in the vernacular?
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Vico
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From Catholic Encyclopedia on the liturgical rites are:
Antioch
1. Pure in the “Apostolic Constitutions” (in Greek).
* Modified at Jerusalem in the Liturgy of St. James.
* The Greek St. James, used once a year by the Orthodox at Zacynthus and Jerusalem.
* The Syriac St. James, used by the Jacobites and Syrian Uniats.
* The Maronite Rite, used in Syriac.
2. The Chaldean Rite, used by Nestorians and Chaldean Uniats (in Syriac).
* The Malabar Rite, used by Uniats and Schismatics in India (in Syriac).
* The Byzantine Rite, used by the Orthodox and Byzantine Uniats in various languages.
* The Armenian Rite, used by Gregorians and Uniats (in Armenian).
Fortescue, A. (1910). Liturgy. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm
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Chet1
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Yes, the liturgy is in English. It looks like a marriage of the Latin and Byzantine rites. You can find it on Youtube.
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Alexandria2020
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I wonder if the Liturgy of Addai and Mari is employed in any of the Orthodox churches?
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Chet1
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No western Orthodoxy uses the Sarum rite, its 500 years older than the Tridentine mass, it looks much like the Byzantine rite but includes elements later found in the TLM.
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OrbisNonSufficit
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It is heavily hellenized… basically that Liturgy is infused with foreign elements such as Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom, use of leavened bread and explicit epiclesis… It isn’t quite fully “Western” and is more of a compromise.
By the way when it comes to “Eastern” Tridentine Mass, TLM was not only allowed in Latin but also in Church Slavonic. Croats sometimes celebrate it and I know it was celebrated in Czech Republic too. It’s just linguistic change though, not change of essence.
Liturgy of Addai and Mari isn’t most ancient (not that you said so). Parent Liturgy from which it developed had words of institution for example. Liturgy of St. James is different story but Apostolic Constitutions predate it since it developed out of it and later kind of became main Liturgy of Antioch (displacing Apostolic Constitutions). It is quite possible that Liturgy of St. James is basis for all Eastern Liturgies (and Liturgies Eastern in origin such as Gallican or Mozarabic Rite… and since Gallican Rite somewhat influenced Rome towards Great Schism, Liturgy of St. James actually influenced Rome too).
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