What is the "Rapture" and is it true?

[Cat_Herder]

Oh… and one more thing… if these premillenialists say things like this…

And I have found that those who are “entranced” with the A-mill view are much prone to the “spiritualization” of Scripture. I have a library of over 3,500 volumes. I have studied the A-Mill position extensively and found it to be a system of spiritualizing Scriptures. That position does great violence to the Word.
QC

… then why do they ALL “spiritualize” THIS?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 26:26[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[QuickCat]

You said it right here (bold added):

Both of you have such a low image of Jesus Christ. You make Him out to be an arbitrary and capricious ruler Who just doesn’t care about the needs of His creatures, Who arbitrarily makes “dispensations” that set men up to fail…

Where have I ever said such things??? And speaking of “dispensations,” do we not live in the “dispensation of the grace of God?”
QC

 

[Michael_Francis]

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Please return to and remain on the topic. What is the “Rapture” and is it true?

If you wish to discuss something else, open a new thread as per the Rules.

 

[zz912]

*Matt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thes 4:13 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.*

Why do people beleive that the Rapture will be a quiet, or secret event? An ARCHANGEL will blow a TRUMPET! This will be the loudest, most startling event across the whole earth in all history.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Matt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thes 4:13 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Why do people beleive that the Rapture will be a quiet, or secret event? An ARCHANGEL will blow a TRUMPET! This will be the loudest, most startling event across the whole earth in all history.

Amen

 

[QuickCat]

WHAT clear Scripture?! That is what is so frustrating. You keep saying there is clear Scripture saying this when there isn’t. Let’s look carefully at Revelation 20 again.

Here’s another problem with your interpretations. What does it mean that those who share in the first resurrection will be PRIESTS of Jesus? Isn’t your position that his once for all sacrifice completes any need for a priesthood? Or are you finally acknowledging the reality of the Catholic priesthood–and Christ’s Eucharistic reign?

Israel will become a “nation of priests.” Ex 19:5,6 cf 1 Peter 2:9. You will search Paul’s epistles Romans to Philemon and find no mention of priests. He does mention priests in his letter to the Hebrews [34xs]. Interestingly, no mention of priest is found in the pastoral epistles.

BTW, Rev. 20 is not about the rapture of the church.
QC

 

[QuickCat]

You said it right here (bold added):

Gosh Herder, I don’t ever recall teaching the things you accuse me of teaching. And speaking of the LORD Jesus Christ: [1] He is my wonderful SAVIOR and my glorious LORD. [2] I adore and praise Him for saving me and sealing me with the Holy Spirit. [3] I look forward to His coming in the air to catch me away in the rapture. [4] He saved me, He keeps me and he is coming again in the air for me. Oh praise His wonderful name - LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
QC

 

[Cat_Herder]

Israel will become a “nation of priests.” Ex 19:5,6 cf 1 Peter 2:9. You will search Paul’s epistles Romans to Philemon and find no mention of priests. He does mention priests in his letter to the Hebrews [34xs]. Interestingly, no mention of priest is found in the pastoral epistles.

And this means what? The letter to the Hebrews was not written to non-Christian Jews. It was written to Hebrew converts to Christianity.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-29[/BIBLEDRB]

Jews are not sanctified by the blood of Christ, so this cannot be directed to them.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You said it right here (bold added):

Gosh Herder, I don’t ever recall teaching the things you accuse me of teaching. And speaking of the LORD Jesus Christ: [1] He is my wonderful SAVIOR and my glorious LORD. [2] I adore and praise Him for saving me and sealing me with the Holy Spirit. [3] I look forward to His coming in the air to catch me away in the rapture. [4] He saved me, He keeps me and he is coming again in the air for me. Oh praise His wonderful name - LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
QC

You said the Church supposedly adopted a heresy via Augustine and that this “heresy” wasn’t removed until your viewpoint came along. I’m asking you what happened to the souls of the billions of people who lived and died between Augustine and Tim LaHaye or whoever it is you are claiming brought back the so called true gospel. Are they saved or not?

 

[QuickCat]

You said the Church supposedly adopted a heresy via Augustine and that this “heresy” wasn’t removed until your viewpoint came along. I’m asking you what happened to the souls of the billions of people who lived and died between Augustine and Tim LaHaye or whoever it is you are claiming brought back the so called true gospel. Are they saved or not?

History records that Augustine [and others] adopted the “allegory” method of Biblical interpretation. The method that I choose to use, after an extensive study of the allegorical approach is the grammatical/historical. As to your question about the salvation of the “billions” ?], only God knows. If they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, then of course, they were saved. Otherwise, NO! Didn’t I previously ask you about the gospel by which one is saved and you didn’t answer?
QC

 

[Cat_Herder]

History records that Augustine [and others] adopted the “allegory” method of Biblical interpretation. The method that I choose to use, after an extensive study of the allegorical approach is the grammatical/historical. As to your question about the salvation of the “billions” ?], only God knows. If they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, then of course, they were saved. Otherwise, NO! Didn’t I previously ask you about the gospel by which one is saved and you didn’t answer?
QC

Well, if Augustine’s religion–Catholicism–is the gospel by which one is saved, then why are you here?

 

[fbl9]

[3] I look forward to His coming in the air to catch me away in the rapture. QC

And when will that be? On the last day.
How many days are there after the last day? There are no more days after the last day so how can there be 365000 more?

 

[Zooey]

[bibledrb]Rev 20:2-6[/bibledrb]
Right here is today. The thousand years is the age of the Church. Those who were resurrected and reign are the Saints. This is what happens next:
[bibledrb]Rev 20:7-15[/bibledrb]

There’s nothing about Christ reigning on this earth. Instead He conquers the world, the world ends and a new world begins which He reigns over.

What I find amazing about this view of the Millenium is that these people are saying that amils don’t believe in the Second Coming, but we clearly do believe in it. And that Jesus will judge all men and bring His eternal Kingdom to the Earth so that it fills heaven and earth. But we deny the carnal understanding of it that is so prevalent in certain segments of the evangelical/fundamentalist churches. And I consider myself evangelical, in that I believe in the Good News of redemption through the Blood of Christ.

In order to believe in a rapture & a premillenial worldview, I would have to believe that :bigyikes:Jesus Christ lost the battle with satan.:dts:
Not Our Lord!! He is alive, He has won the battle, and the victory is His, now & forever!! He is the King of all, right now!! He rules the universe. Satan is a defeated foe who knows that his time is short, & he tries in every way to trap the children of the One, the Only King of Kings & Lord of Lords, into believing in the fables of foolish men & women who do not understand the power of the Precious Blood of Christ, shed on Calvary’s Cross.:byzsoc:
"The fight is o’er, the victory won,
At last the crown of life is won!
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, "!!
:aok::yyeess:

 

[pablope]

Israel will become a “nation of priests.” Ex 19:5,6 cf 1 Peter 2:9. You will search Paul’s epistles Romans to Philemon and find no mention of priests. He does mention priests in his letter to the Hebrews [34xs]. Interestingly, no mention of priest is found in the pastoral epistles.

BTW, Rev. 20 is not about the rapture of the church.
QC

(DR version-CE)

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus: “For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.”

James 5:14-15 we read: “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

2 Tim 1:6 “I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

1 Tim 4:14: “Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.”

 

[QuickCat]

(DR version-CE)

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus: “For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.”

James 5:14-15 we read: “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

2 Tim 1:6 “I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

1 Tim 4:14: “Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.”

πρεσβυτεριον presbuterion pres-boo-ter’-ee-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 4245; the order of elders, i.e. (specially), Israelite Sanhedrin or Christian “presbytery”:—(estate of) elder(-s), presbytery.

See Greek 4245

 

[GaryTaylor]

The translation of Rapture begins with this verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The word rapture is not found in the Bible, but taken from the Greek word “harpazo” (pronounced har-pad’-zo). The term is found 13 times in the New Testament (including Revelation 12:5 which addresses Jesus’ ascent described in the Book of Acts). According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary, “Harpazo” means “to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).” To this effect, its imply is that “rapture” means “harpazo,” which specifically points to being “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Others have derived the concept of the rapture from the Greek word έκσταση, which is translated as ekstasi. “to be, or stand outside oneself, a removal to elsewhere” έκσταση-entrance; means- entry: door, opening, doorway, gate, inlet, passage, portal:

Rapture dates from the late 18th century onwards, but the concept was most popularly explained by “John Nelson Darby”, a mid-19th century preacher. Became favored in Calivinism since it goes right along which hand in glove with the Double Predestination theory. There was no Christian teaching of a “rapture” before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s

James Grant wrote: “With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren (Darbys group), in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptual and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate” Wiki-Pedia

 

[QuickCat]

πρεσβυτεριον presbuterion pres-boo-ter’-ee-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 4245; the order of elders, i.e. (specially), Israelite Sanhedrin or Christian “presbytery”:—(estate of) elder(-s), presbytery.

See Greek 4245

Strong’s Greek Dictionary
749. αρχιερευς archiereus
Search for G749 in KJVSL
αρχιερευς archiereus ar-khee-er-yuce’
from 746 and 2409; the high-priest (literally, of the Jews, typically, Christ); by extension a chief priest:—chief (high) priest, chief of the priests.

See Greek 746
See Greek 2409

 

[QuickCat]

(DR version-CE)

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus: “For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.”

James 5:14-15 we read: “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

2 Tim 1:6 “I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

1 Tim 4:14: “Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.”

,
Word studies in the Word of God are very profitable for the serious student.

• Priest – From the Greek hiereus [hee-er-yooce]: A priest.

This word is used in 74 verses in the New Testament. Interestingly, it is not found in Paul’s epistles with the exception of Hebrews, where it is found 26 times. Peter, while writing to the scattered of Israel, tells them [the Jews] that they are a “…royal priesthood……” [1 Peter 2:9]. Commentators have to do “spiritual” gymnastics to [try to] make this fit the Body of Christ. This priesthood is for a future generation of Jews.

It would seem that the Lord wants believers in this dispensation of the grace of God to graduate from babyhood [disciples] and grow into useful ambassadors. He wants us to come off the “milk” and start feasting on solid food so we can grow into full adulthood. 1 Corinthians 3:1,2; Ephesians 6:11ff; 1 Timothy 2:4.

QC

 

[cajunhillbilly]

The translation of Rapture begins with this verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The word rapture is not found in the Bible, but taken from the Greek word “harpazo” (pronounced har-pad’-zo). The term is found 13 times in the New Testament (including Revelation 12:5 which addresses Jesus’ ascent described in the Book of Acts). According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary, “Harpazo” means “to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).” To this effect, its imply is that “rapture” means “harpazo,” which specifically points to being “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Others have derived the concept of the rapture from the Greek word έκσταση, which is translated as ekstasi. “to be, or stand outside oneself, a removal to elsewhere” έκσταση-entrance; means- entry: door, opening, doorway, gate, inlet, passage, portal:

Rapture dates from the late 18th century onwards, but the concept was most popularly explained by “John Nelson Darby”, a mid-19th century preacher. Became favored in Calivinism since it goes right along which hand in glove with the Double Predestination theory. There was no Christian teaching of a “rapture” before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s

James Grant wrote: “With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren (Darbys group), in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptual and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate” Wiki-Pedia

Actually some of the strongest argumenst against Darbyism are by Calvinsits like Gerhardus Vos, Jay Adams, Kim Riddlebarger. Anthony Hoekema, and others. It was definitely NOT the view at Westminster where I went to seminary.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Actually some of the strongest argumenst against Darbyism are by Calvinsits like Gerhardus Vos, Jay Adams, Kim Riddlebarger. Anthony Hoekema, and others. It was definitely NOT the view at Westminster where I went to seminary.

No doubt, My point is that there are Calvinists who believe in the rapture. Reformed I suppose. I don’t believe its subjected to this paradigm.