what is the REAL reason why protestants reject mary?

[Reformed1]

What do you believe inspires these authors to write these books?

I don’t understand your question. I was speaking of, for lack of a better term, theological texts.

You have used the word “inspired” without qualifying it. What exactly do you mean by inspired? Do you mean what motivated these men and women to write their books or are you asking me if I believe the Holy Spirit whispered in their ear as they diligently slaved away at their task?

 

[tequilamac]

I don’t doubt that the various Marian beliefs go back a good ways but I don’t think there is any evidence that they belief(s) can be traced back to either Jesus or the apostles themselves, which is what the other poster seems to be claiming.

Yes, they go back a very, very good ways:

15-17 years after the death of Christ:
Prayer to St. Joseph. Oldest Christian Prayer known with the exception of the Our Father. Written approx. 50AD
Oh, Saint Joseph,
whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt
before the throne of God,
I place in you all my interests and desires.
Oh, Saint Joseph,
do assist me by your powerful intercession,
and obtain for me from your Divine Son
all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power,
I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
Oh, Saint Joseph,
I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms;
I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart.
Press Him in my name and kiss his fine head for me and ask him to return the Kiss
when I draw my dying breath.
Saint Joseph, Patron of departed souls – pray for me.
Amen.

150-202 Irenaeus of Lyons points to Mary’s role in redemption (Mary is causa salutis and advocata Evae)

Sub Tuum Praesidium oldest known Marian prayer written circa 250ad It was written under the patronage of the Holy Catholic See in Alexandria.First discovered in the Coptic Christians Christmas Liturgy late in the Third Century.

Sub tuum praesidium confugimus,
Sancta Dei Genetrix.
Nostras deprecationes ne despicias
in necessitatibus nostris,
sed a periculis cunctis
libera nos semper,
Virgo gloriosa et benedicta.
Amen.

Chronological Table of Marian EventsURL for this page is udayton.edu/mary/resources/Timetable.htm

54-60 First allusion to Mary in Paul’s Letter to the Galatians (4:4 “God sent his son born of a woman”)
65 Mary mentioned twice in Mark’s Gospel
70-100 Matthew’s Gospel, Luke Acts and John’s Gospel show Mary’s presence in the life of Jesus and the early Christian Community
90-100 Mary and the Church are both symbolized in the image of the woman in the Book of Revelation (chapter 12)
ca. 110 Ignatius of Antioch makes references to Mary as Virgin and Mother.
150-165 Justin Martyr brings the comparison between Eve and Mary (Eve-Mary-Parallel)
150-202 Irenaeus of Lyons points to Mary’s role in redemption (Mary is causa salutis and advocata Evae)
late 2nd C. Early paintings of Mary in the catacombs
200-350 Composition of the prayer Sub tuum praesidium – the oldest Marian prayer
217 Founding of Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome
300 Introduction of the Akathistos Hymn in the East
306-373 Ephrem of Syria, known for his poetic writings about Mary
350 Earliest recorded invocation of Mary by St. Justina
352-366 Founding of Saint Mary Major under Pope Liberius I
370 Earliest liturgy of Mary composed in Syria
339-397 Ambrose of Milan speaks of Mary as type of the Church
354-430 Augustine of Hippo speaks of Mary as most excellent member and type of the Church
ca. 400 Earliest version of the Transitus of Mary
400-500 Temple of Isis at Soissons/France dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary,

Introduction of the Feast of the Commemoration of the Virgin throughout Europe,

Feast of the Annunciation celebrated in Byzantium

431 Council of Ephesus proclaims Mary as Theotokos
432 Dedication of the enlarged Church of Saint Mary Major/Rome by Pope Sixtus III

 

[6glargento]

There are plenty of books out there that discuss the Trinity and how to explain, defend, and understand it using only the scriptures. I believe that during a debate on sola scriptura with James White, Fr. Pacwa conceded the point that the doctrine of the trinity is found in scripture.

The various Marian doctrines seem to be lacking this scriptural support and MUST have tradition added to the scriptures to validate the various dogmas regarding Mary.

no one denies that the trinity is in scripture. but it is not explicitly stated. Of course you can find biblical evidence for the trinity, but nowhere does the scripture explicitly give us the definition of the trinity as

the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

 

[mrs_abbott]

What about this comparison?

*Behold the handmaid of the Lord

Rome - As our advocate, placed between God and the sinner, she [Mary] takes it
upon herself to invoke the clemency of the judge so as to temper his justice, to
touch the heart of the sinner and to overcome his obstinacy.
Address of Pope Pius XII on
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

The Bible - And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus
Christ the righteous.
1 John 2:1

Rome - In all circumstances they will have recourse to her as their advocate and
mediatrix… Louis de
Montfort

The Bible - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the
man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
There can be no act more worthy of punishment than to have “trodden under foot, the Son
of God.” *

 

[mikeledes]

I would like to see some proof that since 33 ad there has been a belief in the assumption of Mary, the immaculate conception, etc.

As far as scripture goes, you know full well no scripture speaks of Mary being assumed into heaven or that she was sinless. While you and others may read into scripture what you want in light of your tradition, you won’t find many of your traditions in scripture, at least not explicitly, such as the immaculate conception.

I think this is the sticking point for most non-Catholics. You guys seem to believe you have the fullness of faith by adding tradition and we think you have gone to far with your tradition.

Please point to me the Bible passages that condemn masturbation as being sinful and abortion as the equivlent of murder? Please point to me a passage that clearly states that life begins at conception and not during a later stage of pregnancy? Please point to me the passage that establishes a true marriage as an exchange of vows before a designated authority? Or can you please point to a passage that explicitly talks about the Hypostatic Union? Or where in Scripture do you explicitly find the Calvinist notion of “common grace?” A teaching does not have to be expicitly stated in Scripture in order to be true.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I would also like to add that a Catholic’s love for Mary in no way takes away from the adoration and love we have for God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Does a relationship with God necessarily exclude relationships with fellow creatures? If that we so, then you could not love, praise, honor, or respect your mother, father, brother, sister, wife, children, or fellow Christian. Nor could we communicate with them or ask fellow Christians for advice or for their prayers. I’m sure the only person Protestants talk to is God, right? Obviously not! God does not get jealous if we talk to others besides Him, as long as we don’t give to that person the love, respect, and adoration that belongs exclusively to Him. We love Mary as a mother and ask for her intercession. This love, however, is subordinate to the love we have for God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[IHS]

IHS;1699110:

Why are you being disobedient to Jesus’ word when he said ‘behold your mother’ AND 'honour thy father and

thy mother’? And why do you refuse to believe that he hears her when his example in Cana very clearly shows contrariwise?I do honor my father and mother.Of course God was speaking to us about our mother and human father in his commandments.Once again you miss what Mary was saying.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

LilyM;1699132:

I do honor my father and mother.Of course God was speaking to us about our mother and human father in his commandments.Once again you miss what Mary was saying.

IHS, But wouldn’t Jesus whom is God made man honor His own mother as well? Also, because Jesus is God, he would fulfill His own commandment perfectly.

What do you think Mary was saying?

 

[LilyM]

IHS;1701981:

IHS, But wouldn’t Jesus whom is God made man honor His own mother as well? Also, because Jesus is God, he would fulfill His own commandment perfectly.

What do you think Mary was saying?

Of course he thinks that she was saying she’s of no importance - when she said ‘do whatever he tells you’ at Cana - in spite of the fact that ALL GENERATIONS WILL CALL HER BLESSED!!! And in spite of the fact that HE PERFORMED A MIRACLE AT HER REQUEST!!!

How about the fact that he said “love one another as I have loved you”? We should love, honour and respect ALL those who HE loves, honours and respects AS MUCH AS he loves, honours and respects them.

And by choosing to be Mary’s child, by trusting her so completely that he made himelf physically and in every possible way dependent on her as a helpless baby and child - Jesus teaches us the attitude we should have towards Mary.

 

[IHS]

IHS;1701981:

IHS, But wouldn’t Jesus whom is God made man honor His own mother as well? Also, because Jesus is God, he would fulfill His own commandment perfectly.

What do you think Mary was saying?

Yes ,Jesus did honor his mother and his father.Like we are to honor our mother and father.

 

[SORROWS]

St. Ignatius of Antioch described Jesus as “Son of Mary and Son of God”.

As the Mother of Our Lord she is higher than any Saint and certainly not just a mother as She was chosen by God Himself.

The Blessed Virgin is worthy of Veneration and even pantings found in the Catacombs very early on showed the deep reverance and Sanctity worthy of Honor from the faithful.

We Catholics know how to love the entire Holy Family without taking anything away from Our Savior. The graces and rewards received by those who love Her and DEFEND Her will be great in Heaven. GREAT!
Jesus will surely see to that.

 

[Reformed1]

Please point to me the Bible passages that condemn masturbation as being sinful and abortion as the equivlent of murder? Please point to me a passage that clearly states that life begins at conception and not during a later stage of pregnancy? Please point to me the passage that establishes a true marriage as an exchange of vows before a designated authority? Or can you please point to a passage that explicitly talks about the Hypostatic Union? Or where in Scripture do you explicitly find the Calvinist notion of “common grace?” A teaching does not have to be expicitly stated in Scripture in order to be true.

God Bless,
Michael

None of what you say helps you case at all, but I suspect you know that.

 

[LilyM]

Dancelittleewok;1701992:

Of course he thinks that she was saying she’s of no importance - when she said ‘do whatever he tells you’ at Cana - in spite of the fact that ALL GENERATIONS WILL CALL HER BLESSED!!! And in spite of the fact that HE PERFORMED A MIRACLE AT HER REQUEST!!!

How about the fact that he said “love one another as I have loved you”? We should love, honour and respect ALL those who HE loves, honours and respects AS MUCH AS he loves, honours and respects them.

And by choosing to be Mary’s child, by trusting her so completely that he made himelf physically and in every possible way dependent on her as a helpless baby and child - Jesus teaches us the attitude we should have towards Mary.

Respond to this please - you aren’t loving those Jesus loved and loves in the way he said to.

 

[LilyM]

None of what you say helps you case at all, but I suspect you know that.

So you belive in abortion? And masturbation? And you believe marriage before any type of religious or civil authority is totally unnecessary?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Yes ,Jesus did honor his mother and his father.Like we are to honor our mother and father.

How did Jesus honor His mother by saying, “son, behold thy mother” and “mother, behold thy son” (John 19)?

 

[Reformed1]

So you belive in abortion? And masturbation? And you believe marriage before any type of religious or civil authority is totally unnecessary?

Lily,

None of the things you mention has anything to do with the various Marian dogmas you church teaches. Whether or not sola scriptura is true of false is not relevant to the reason I posted earlier in this thread. I could be atheist, Hindu, Muslim, agnostic or any other religion and I would still hold the same position.

The reason I posted this afternoon is because someone seemed to believe that the various Marian dogmas have been in existence since 33 AD which is completely bogus.

If you want to pray to Mary, sing hymns to Mary, honor her as co-whatever, believe she was assumed into heaven, have feasts dedicated to her for various things, go ahead but from what I have seen, there isn’t a lot of evidence of these beliefs for the first few centuries after the apostles had died off.

Further, there is even less scriptural evidence to support many of the Marian dogmas but if you want to put your faith in your tradition, well, that’s your perogative.

 

[Dorothy]

Lily,

None of the things you mention has anything to do with the various Marian dogmas you church teaches. Whether or not sola scriptura is true of false is not relevant to the reason I posted earlier in this thread. I could be atheist, Hindu, Muslim, agnostic or any other religion and I would still hold the same position.

The reason I posted this afternoon is because someone seemed to believe that the various Marian dogmas have been in existence since 33 AD which is completely bogus.

If you want to pray to Mary, sing hymns to Mary, honor her as co-whatever, believe she was assumed into heaven, have feasts dedicated to her for various things, go ahead but from what I have seen, there isn’t a lot of evidence of these beliefs for the first few centuries after the apostles had died off.

Further, there is even less scriptural evidence to support many of the Marian dogmas but if you want to put your faith in your tradition, well, that’s your perogative.

Catholics put their faith in Scripture, Tradition (with a capital “T” - differs from tradition with a small “t”) and the divinely appointed teaching authority of the Church (Magisterium).

I like to describe it as a three-legged stool. I believe that “Scripture Alone” just doesn’t stand up.

 

[Reformed1]

Catholics put their faith in Scripture, Tradition (with a capital “T” - differs from tradition with a small “t”) and the divinely appointed teaching authority of the Church (Magisterium).

I like to describe it as a three-legged stool. I believe that “Scripture Alone” just doesn’t stand up.

Dorothy,

I guess this is off topic but my main concern with tradition and your church’s claim to infallibility is, how do you know that what your church teaches is true? How do you test what the church says and determine whether or not it’s true? If your church says Mary was assumed into heaven or Mary was sinless and declares it as dogma, you are no longer allowed to question that are you? How do you know tradition hasn’t perverted the word of God?

 

[Sabda]

Well then you better throw out the Trinity too. After all the Trinity is not explicity listed in Scripture. You have to look OUTSIDE Scripture to find the exact definition of Trinity and even to find the word Trinity itself.

 

[Reformed1]

Well then you better throw out the Trinity too. After all the Trinity is not explicity listed in Scripture. You have to look OUTSIDE Scripture to find the exact definition of Trinity and even to find the word Trinity itself.

Save up your money and invest in a good book on the trinity written from a protestant perspetive and see if you change your mind.