what is the REAL reason why protestants reject mary?

[Damascus]

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of Virgins, my Mother. To you I come; before you I stand sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate! Despise not my petitions, but in your mercy hear me. Amen.

God’s will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

I could have picked a better one but I am getting drowsy.

 

[SORROWS]

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of Virgins, my Mother. To you I come; before you I stand sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate! Despise not my petitions, but in your mercy hear me. Amen.

God’s will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

I could have picked a better one but I am getting drowsy.

That prayer is truly miraculous. My mother taught it to me as a child and I still pray it during desperate times.

How lucky we are as Catholics to be able to Honor Our Heavenly Mother and how much more will Our Lord Jesus reward us for using Her to bring us closer to Him. This greatly pleases Him. :clapping:

 

[Truthstalker]

If you two are done with your little roll maybe we can get this thread back on track.

 

[Damascus]

**Hail, Holy Queen
Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! to you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears, Turn then, most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. **

 

[exoflare]

No offense, but I don’t share your belief that the NT canon came form your magisterium.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

God’s word doesn’t need your church to give it the authority that it already has in and of itself.

Well then we would be at a disagreement - if I had actually made this claim to begin with! I never said the Church “gave” scripture its authority (you put those words into my mouth all by yourself), but it did give people the assurance of which books were already inspired by God and which were not.

Why do you believe all those books are divinely inspired? Your pastor or some other random person told you at some point in your life. Like that’s sooo much better.

Does God need permission from your church for His word to have authority? I don’t think so.

Again, you’re just refuting a claim that I never made in the first place. I don’t see what you think you’re accomplishing with this.

 

[CherokeeBrave]

i always wondered this. if you look at the earliest writings of the reformers, they gave mary the proper honor she deserves. luther even upheld many of the catholic marian doctrines. At what point did the protestants start to demonize marian devotion? do you think they had some other alterior or political motive other than the “its not in the bible” argument?

Could it be that perhaps God punished them for thier rebelion by hardening their hearts to his mother in order to limit their graces?

I know of no Christian who rejects the biblical Mary.
That topples your theory as to what God has done to their heart.
You teach a despotic God, arbitrary and menacing toward the children HE loves. Whose Christ also states with certainty that HE has sheep in other folds, and that includes the RCC. :tiphat:

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I know of no Christian who rejects the biblical Mary.
That topples your theory as to what God has done to their heart.
**You teach a despotic God, arbitrary and menacing toward the children HE loves. Whose Christ also states with certainty that HE has sheep in other folds, and that includes the RCC. ** :tiphat:

CC teaches a despotic God? Where are you getting this information from?

If God’s love were something apart from Himself, then love would be something He’d have to acquire. This is impossible because that would mean that God is finite. Furthermore, God is pure spirit and outside of both time/space. God’s attributes cannot be apart from Himself because He has no parts!

God’s attributes are who He is. What He has is Who He is. God’s mercy and justice are not opposing tendencies within Himself but are one in the same God. So therefore, it would be a false dillemia to put His Mercy apart from His Justice.

Also you are creating another false dillemia between the Bible and the CC…

 

[tequilamac]

I know of no Christian who rejects the biblical Mary.
That topples your theory as to what God has done to their heart.
You teach a despotic God, arbitrary and menacing toward the children HE loves. Whose Christ also states with certainty that HE has sheep in other folds, and that includes the RCC. :tiphat:

I’m sorry. I have a problem with believing those who have a preference of mottos from the Old Testament following Christ. Catholics are a New Testament sort of people. We have taught the same God for over 2000 years. Not one that changes with every whim, fancy, false pophet, goldne plate, angel so and so, and president.
I’m sorry your God is despotic. but that is what you get without honoring the Mother. Despise not one hair of his head, not one follicle. I think His mother is worth more than a hair, don’t you?

 

[tequilamac]

If you two are done with your little roll maybe we can get this thread back on track.

Certainly, I agree. Back on track:

Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven,
Have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
Have mercy on us.
God the Holy Ghost,
Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God,
Have mercy on us.
Holy Mary,
pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins,
pray for us.
Mother of Christ,
pray for us.
Mother of divine grace,
pray for us.
Mother most pure,
pray for us.
Mother most chaste,
pray for us.
Mother inviolate,
pray for us.
Mother undefiled,
pray for us.
Mother most amiable,
pray for us.
Mother most admirable,
pray for us.
Mother of good counsel,
pray for us.
Mother of our Creator,
pray for us.
Mother of our Savior,
pray for us.
Virgin most prudent,
pray for us.
Virgin most venerable,
pray for us.
Virgin most renowned,
pray for us.
Virgin most powerful,
pray for us.
Virgin most merciful,
pray for us.
Virgin most faithful,
pray for us.
Mirror of justice,
pray for us.
Seat of wisdom,
pray for us.
Cause of our joy,
pray for us.
Spiritual vessel,
pray for us.
Vessel of honor,
pray for us.
Singular vessel of devotion,
pray for us.
Mystical rose,
pray for us.
Tower of David,
pray for us.
Tower of ivory,
pray for us.
House of gold,
pray for us.
Ark of the Covenant,
pray for us.
Gate of Heaven,
pray for us.
Morning star,
pray for us.
Health of the sick,
pray for us.
Refuge of sinners,
pray for us.
Comforter of the afflicted,
pray for us.
Help of Christians,
pray for us.
Queen of angels,
pray for us.
Queen of patriarchs,
pray for us.
Queen of prophets,
pray for us.
Queen of apostles,
pray for us.
Queen of martyrs,
pray for us.
Queen of confessors,
pray for us.
Queen of virgins,
pray for us.
Queen of all saints,
pray for us.
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
pray for us.
Queen assumed into Heaven,
pray for us.
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
pray for us.
Queen of peace,
pray for us.

Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
Graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
Have mercy on us.

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Grant, we beseech Thee, O Lord God, that we Thy Servants may enjoy perpetual health of mind and body and by the glorious intercession of the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, be delivered from present sorrow and unjoy enternal happiness. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Approved by Pope Sixtus V in 1587

 

[tequilamac]

Chronological Table of Marian EventsURL for this page is udayton.edu/mary/resources/Timetable.htm

54-60 First allusion to Mary in Paul’s Letter to the Galatians (4:4 “God sent his son born of a woman”)
65 Mary mentioned twice in Mark’s Gospel
70-100 Matthew’s Gospel, Luke Acts and John’s Gospel show Mary’s presence in the life of Jesus and the early Christian Community
90-100 Mary and the Church are both symbolized in the image of the woman in the Book of Revelation (chapter 12)
ca. 110 Ignatius of Antioch makes references to Mary as Virgin and Mother.
150-165 Justin Martyr brings the comparison between Eve and Mary (Eve-Mary-Parallel)
150-202 Irenaeus of Lyons points to Mary’s role in redemption (Mary is causa salutis and advocata Evae)
late 2nd C. Early paintings of Mary in the catacombs
200-350 Composition of the prayer Sub tuum praesidium – the oldest Marian prayer
217 Founding of Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome
300 Introduction of the Akathistos Hymn in the East
306-373 Ephrem of Syria, known for his poetic writings about Mary
350 Earliest recorded invocation of Mary by St. Justina
352-366 Founding of Saint Mary Major under Pope Liberius I
370 Earliest liturgy of Mary composed in Syria
339-397 Ambrose of Milan speaks of Mary as type of the Church
354-430 Augustine of Hippo speaks of Mary as most excellent member and type of the Church
ca. 400 Earliest version of the Transitus of Mary
400-500 Temple of Isis at Soissons/France dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary,

                    Introduction of the Feast of the Commemoration of the Virgin throughout Europe,

                    Feast of the Annunciation celebrated in Byzantium

431 Council of Ephesus proclaims Mary as Theotokos
432 Dedication of the enlarged Church of Saint Mary Major/Rome by Pope Sixtus III

440-461 Introduction of Marian reference in the Eucharistic prayer of the Leonine Sacramentary,

(“In communion with and venerating in the first place the glorious ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of God. …”)
500-600 Parthenon (temple of Athena)/Athens dedicated to Mary,

Dedication of Saint Mary Antiqua/Rome and Saint Mary in Jerusalem
550 Celebration of the Feasts of the Birth of Mary, the Presentation of Jesus, and the Dormition in Byzantium
600-700 Composition of the Marian antiphon Ave Maris Stella,

Celebration of the Feast of the Purification (February 2), the Annunciation (March 25) the Assumption (August 15) and the Birth of Mary in Rome
649 Council of the Lateran declares the perpetual virginity of Mary
680-681 The Third Council of Constantinople reaffirms Mary’s Divine Motherhood
787 The Second Council of Nicaea defines regulations for the veneration rendered to images of Mary
ca. 802 Alcuin composes Masses in honour of Our Lady on Saturday, which become part of the Missal in 875
900-1000 Composition of the antiphon Regina Coeli,

Introduction of The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary,

                    Translation of the Transitus stories into Latin,

                    Dedication of the Saturdays to Mary

1000/1100 Introduction of Feast of Mary’s Compassion,

                    Composition of Hail Holy Queen,

                    Start of the building Notre Dame Cathedral in Chartres/France

1050-1150 Composition of the antiphons Alma Redemptoris Mater and Salve Regina,

Building of the church of Our Lady of Walsingham/England
1100-1200 Early versions of the Litany of the Virgin Mary and the first part of the Hail Mary
1100-1135 Rupert of Deutz gives Marian interpretation of the Song of Songs and speaks of Mary’s spiritual motherhood
1100-1153 Anselm of Canterbury and Bernard of Clairvaux highlight in addition to Mary’s role in the incarnation her role in redemption
1163-1235 Building of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris/France
1194-1220/60 Rebuilding and dedication of the Cathedral in Chartres/France
1230-1280 Albert the Great uses the title Mother of the Church"
1250-1274 Bonaventure introduces the word hyperdulia for the type of veneration given

URL for this page is udayton.edu/mary/resources/Timetable.htm

 

[tequilamac]

As you can clearly see from the above timetable, anyone who claims that Marian devotion was not part of the life of an early Christian is well simply uneducated in any type of history or illiterate or being duped by false prophets. It has been a part of Christianity since before the death of Christ and continued unabated and undisturbed until long after Martin Luther who himself had strong devotion to her.

No one who claims to be following the footsteps of the Apostles, or early Christians and denies Mary the honor given her in the beginning from the early ones, should even be given a hearing.

**Sub Tuum Praesidium oldest known Marian prayer written circa **250ad It was written under the patronage of the Holy Catholic See in Alexandria.First discovered in the Coptic Christians Christmas Liturgy late in the Third Century.

Sub tuum praesidium confugimus,
Sancta Dei Genetrix.
Nostras deprecationes ne despicias
in necessitatibus nostris,
sed a periculis cunctis
libera nos semper,
Virgo gloriosa et benedicta.
Amen.

Prayer to St. Joseph. Oldest Christian Prayer known with the exception of the Our Father. Written approx. 50AD
Oh, Saint Joseph,
whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt
before the throne of God,
I place in you all my interests and desires.
Oh, Saint Joseph,
do assist me by your powerful intercession,
and obtain for me from your Divine Son
all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power,
I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
Oh, Saint Joseph,
I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms;
I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart.
Press Him in my name and kiss his fine head for me and ask him to return the Kiss
when I draw my dying breath.
Saint Joseph, Patron of departed souls – pray for me.
Amen.

 

[Damascus]

Please watch this and keep your thoughts on Jesus the entire time you do.

youtube.com/watch?v=otLlHv2JHTc



I think the root of all problems in Christianity is ignoring the Obvious fact that Mary has been treated poorly by non-Catholics. And as such, have forsaken their Risen Lord.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Please watch this and keep your thoughts on Jesus the entire time you do.

youtube.com/watch?v=otLlHv2JHTc



I think the root of all problems in Christianity is ignoring the Obvious fact that Mary has been treated poorly by non-Catholics. And as such, have forsaken their Risen Lord.

Hi D,
You said to focus on Jesus the entire time, why not substitue He where the song refers to she. Then it would make perfect sense to me. Jesus is the only one who can do the things the song mentioned so why not sing to Him.

 

[Damascus]

Hi D,
You said to focus on Jesus the entire time, why not substitue He where the song refers to she. Then it would make perfect sense to me. Jesus is the only one who can do the things the song mentioned so why not sing to Him.

What things did the song mention that she can not do? Did you listen to it?
Did you see the words at the end?

 

[tequilamac]

Hi D,
You said to focus on Jesus the entire time, why not substitue He where the song refers to she. Then it would make perfect sense to me. Jesus is the only one who can do the things the song mentioned so why not sing to Him.

Because the earliest Christians said

“Let all follow the Bishop, as Jesus Christ follows His Father” Ignatius of Antioch 107AD

“Whoever does not have the Church as his Mother, cannot have God as his Father”
Cyprian of Carthage 251AD
You see it is not that Jesus cannot do what Mary won’t- it is that He will not hear you as long as you ignore her. We have that testimony from the earliest ones.

“That is why our bodies receive by baptism that unity which leads to life incorruptible, and our souls receive the same unity through the Holy Spirit” Irenaeus of Lyons 180 AD
She is our unifying force. That is why in over 2000 years and many schisms over Creeds and popes, all Catholics, I mean all Catholics- East, West, Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Russian Orthodox and all Orthodox- All catholics agree on Mary. Even Martin Luther was superiorly devoted to the Holy Mother.

And it is precisely the lack of devotion to Mary that has caused the blight of Protestant denoms in the thousands, none of whom agree with each other. Catholics of any kind do not have that problem. there is plenty of problems we do have, but we are all still Catholic just like John in 33 AD and Paul, and Antioch in 107 Ad, Irenaeus in 180 AD and Cyprian in 251 AD- because we respect, honor and venerate the Holy Mother. Protestants well, don’t, and well you guys agree on nothing. No unity at all.

 

[tequilamac]

“That is why our bodies receive by baptism that unity which leads to life incorruptible, and our souls receive the same unity through the Holy Spirit” Irenaeus of Lyons 180 AD

She is our unifying force. That is why in over 2000 years and many schisms over Creeds and popes, all Catholics, I mean all Catholics- East, West, Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Russian Orthodox and all Orthodox- All catholics agree on Mary. Even Martin Luther was superiorly devoted to the Holy Mother.

And it is precisely the lack of devotion to Mary that has caused the blight of Protestant denoms in the thousands, none of whom agree with each other. Catholics of any kind do not have that problem. there is plenty of problems we do have, but we are all still Catholic just like John in 33 AD and Paul, and Antioch in 107 Ad, Irenaeus in 180 AD and Cyprian in 251 AD- because we respect, honor and venerate the Holy Mother. Protestants well, don’t, and well you guys agree on nothing. No unity at all.

 

[Damascus]

I am befuddled here. Lets go over all the objections here and see if there is even ONE compelling logical factual argument here that conclusively PROVES that Catholics got it wrong on this one…

Dont see it.

Never have.

 

[tequilamac]

I am befuddled here. Lets go over all the objections here and see if there is even ONE compelling logical factual argument here that conclusively PROVES that Catholics got it wrong on this one…

Dont see it.

Never have.

We didn’t get it wrong. Protestants did. For evidence- look in the yellow pages under Churchs- non Catholic. Man, there are millions of them and none of them agree on anything. Anything at all. No unity, no operating as one christian body. therefore no following of Christ in His fullness. Because- they reject Mary.

 

[tequilamac]

It is through the intercession of the Holy Mother that the true Apostolic Church can be seen, proven and recognised.

Because the true disciples of Jesus, us (Roman Catholic, Orthodox Catholic and Byzantine Catholic) are also disciples of Mary in the tradition of our ancestors- John, Peter, Paul, Ignatius, Cyprian etc…

We can prove ourselves and say we do this and this today because we did this and this in 33 AD… 55 AD., 107 AD, 251 AD.

No other group claiming to be Christian can prove themselves as the same people now they were in 33 AD. None.

She was the unity of Christians in Emmaus with John just as she is today.

Because Christ said so. Christ said “Son, behold your mother.” In 33 AD.

And Jesus Christ you are my life. Alleluia. I do not argue with Christ.

So be it. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

 

[Damascus]

We didn’t get it wrong. Protestants did. For evidence- look in the yellow pages under Churchs- non Catholic. Man, there are millions of them and none of them agree on anything. Anything at all. No unity, no operating as one christian body. therefore no following of Christ in His fullness. Because- they reject Mary.

I think Muslims may have a better shot since at least they dont belittle Mary.

What a dissapointment to JESUS CHRIST that MUSLIMS respect HIS MOM more than some christians.