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Angainor
Guest
Which is why it is possible to reject the gift of salvation.
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Syele
Guest
To not reject is to accept. To accept is an action.
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Angainor
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You are turning an inaction (not rejecting) into an action.
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Syele
Guest
Failure to act is a decesion in itself. Even if the decesion is made carelessly or lazily.
Decesion is an action. As long as we have the ability to make decesions, then we are incapable of true inaction. not standing up is the action of sitting… not talking is the action of being quiet.
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Cling2Cross
Guest
Show me that this is prevenient grace without twisting…
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37 KJV)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 KJV)
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65 KJV)
Nobody can come to Christ without them being given to Him by the Father…drawn…this results in them coming to Christ - them being raised up on the last day. This is effectual grace resulting inthe salvation of those foreknown…predestined…called…justified…glorified…
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)
God can influence the will to the point of salvation!
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy **has caused us to be born again **to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:1-3 NAS95)
We are all enslaved to something…our deadness must be overcome.
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sandusky
Guest
Your colored statement, when stated positively, is something that you believe; namely, that man, in and of himself, has the power to understand the gospel, and, that man, in and of himself, has the power to accept salvation; that’s a very Pelagian-like statement/belief, IMO.
However, on the face of it, as stated in the negative above, I agree with Angainor, and I disagree with you that it is illogical; it is, rather, biblical.
Men do not reject the gospel on the basis of some “power” they have—they are born helpless, ungodly sinners (Rom 5:6ff)—they have no power.
They reject the gospel because they are devoid of understanding the things of God, and because of that, they are unrighteous, and useless, and have no desire for God (Rom 3:10-12)—man’s dilemma is with “his desires,” which direct his will, which is a slave, in bondage to sin and Satan (Rom 6; Eph 2).
How is an enslaved will a free will?
Furthermore, the consequence promised to Adam for his disobedience was death, which describes those born in Adam—they are dead in trespasses, and sins, and are naturally children of God’s wrath (Eph 2:1ff).
Those who are dead have no power.
Go outside of your home, and find a rock; proclaim Christ’s gospel to the rock, and note the rock’s response—an unregenerate sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, has as much power to accept the the gift of salvation as has a rock—none.
Something else must occur first; something that can restore man to a condition similar to Adam’s condition before the fall.
And that something, is something over which, man has no power.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
This is an interesting concept that I’d like to mull over. It’s certainly within God’s power to do so. If God elected to do this I wonder if would arise from His sense of Divine Justice or be prevented by Divine Justice? Satan would no doubt cry foul here since it would essentially be an unstoppable flood of grace that could not be rejectable through any act of freewill. But based on what we know about God’s nature I don’t see Him applying a “bullying” grace (eg. a grace that says “YOU ARE MINE - NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU FIGHT ME!”) to anyone unless it was a benevolent act divinely proxied in place of a defective or altered conditon of freewill; perhaps a mental or physical handicap (perhaps mental illness, coherced apostasy, maybe depressive suicide etc.). The problem I have with it is that God wants us to Love Him through election of freewill not through need or by command. However it is impossible to Love God purely through freewill since we rely on Him for our very life so if we Love Him it is always out of necessity.
(this stuff gives me a headache)Previously I speculated that if this kind of forced salvation was used by God it might arise within a limited context of Justice. It would be unthinkable for example that any one member of the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, Joseph) could be seperated from predestiny by any single one’s stubborn refusal to cooperate in God’s salvific grace. If for example Mary or Joseph failed to to cooperate with God’s Plan it becomes then a matter of Justice to “intrude” since cooperation is a matter of Divine Providence and Divine Plan that certain souls MUST be together saved for the Plan to suceed. But this does not at all seem plausible with respect to human sense of fairness and our understand of God’s nature. Certainly God can force every being in Creation to obey Him for our own good - but there are NO examples of this in Tradition nor in Scripture that I know of (save perhaps: Daniel 14: 35-38 where Habakkuk was forcefully taken by an Angel to Babylon to feed Daniel Dinner). God could have just as easily prevented Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden but chose not to. God does not change.
I am not comfortable with the deeper implications of this whole topic area since this interpretation would undermine the foundations of scripture that hold freewill sacrosanct and respected by God as well as render God to be as fickle and changeable as any human.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
A Divine imposition against freewill would only substitute slavery to sin for a mindless robotic slavery to obey God (albeit it may be benevolent given the alternative).
Yet we have in scripture: John 15:15
No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Once we have a valid choice offered to us of “slavery to sin” vs. “friendship with God” (through the merits of Christ) we must both choose to exercise freewill to step away from slavery and enter into friendship. The act requires a consummation of action. The default is slavery not elective friendship. If the default was friendship with God rather than slavery to sin then we would not even need to be Baptised.
I like the OT imagery here. God called the Jews out of captivity in Egypt. But the Jews had to choose to leave bondage to set off for the Promised Land - God did not make them free within the Kingdom of Egypt. The Jews had to choose to trust God and elect to labor to walk along the path to the Promised Land. No doubt some Jews elected to stay behind in bondage rather than take their chances in the dessert knowing that Pharaoh would likely send his armies after them.
God hates cowards:
Revelations 21:18
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
James
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guanophore
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Do you believe that all who are drawn reach glorification?
Do you believe that the disciples who followed Jesus up until the Bread of Life Discourse were drawn?
Are some predestined to hell?
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Cling2Cross
Guest
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)
In that he predestined some but not all, those who are not chosen go their own way as those who are elect would have - into depravity. We are the aroma of life unto life to those that will be saved and the aroma of death unto death to those who will not be saved…
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? (2 Corinthians 2:15-16 KJV)
Romans 9 - as you probably know gives the clearest picture of your inquiry…
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9:16-20 KJV)
Some have been chosen and predestined to glory - others - are vessels for dishonor…
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not **of the Jews **only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:21-24 KJV)
Some of the Jews and some of the Gentiles are chosen to salvation. Others are allowed to go their own way…how wshall we look at these that are allowed to go their own way?
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 13:36-43 KJV)
He is enduring them with longsuffering…
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matthew 13:28-30 KJV)
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tabcom
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No. Predestination is only used in the Bible in direct relationship to the believers.
Vessels of wrath are prepared for hell.
Romans 9:20-23 – Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed It, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter the power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour-- What if God willing to show his wrath, and make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath afore prepared unto glory.
Code:
* fitted - Greek: katartizo- to complete thoroughly; fit; frame; arrange; prepareIt is Jesus that holds the Key to death and hell (Rev. 1:18), not Satan. God will intentionally cast these evil vessels of wrath into hell and lock them up for eternity, because it is not his pleasure to draw them to him (John 6:44). God is not only love to the vessels of mercy, but he is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24) upon the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
The God of the universe can harden and soften the hearts of men at will (Rom. 9:18; Ezek. 36:26). He giveth not account of any of his matters (Job 33:13).
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tabcom
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:tsktsk: Regretfully, I must point out that you’re freewill spin is not in keeping with the context of the Scripture you cited. For in the very next verse . . .
John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and {that} your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Did the disciples have freewill in following Jesus?
John 6:70
Jesus answered them,
“Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
That word choose in both citations is from the original greek – eklegomai (ek-leg’-om-ahee) – to select – make choice, choose (out), chosen.
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guanophore
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How do you dispatch the passages that seem to indicate that God wants everyone to be saved?
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emil2804
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To sandusky and angainor - Please explain Mt 25:31 - in the context of your belief. I reproduce it here for easy reference. Why does Jesus want us to do all that if it is not required?
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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tabcom
Guest
Jesus died for “all men”, but not every man, woman, child that ever lived.How do you dispatch the passages that seem to indicate that God wants everyone to be saved?
God had limited his “calling” to Israel under the old covenant. Because of their idolatry, he extended the kingdom (calling) to all flesh (red flesh, yellow flesh, black flesh, white flesh) (Joel 12:28; Acts 2:17). Men of every nation, tongue, and kindred will be a part of the church (flock) according to their election from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). Jesus died only for his sheep (the church - the called) which were given to him by his father (John 6:37-39; John 17:2,6,9,10,11,24). Jesus died for an exact people. Jesus did not die for the man in hell (Luke 11). He is dying the second death (Rev. 20:6,14; 21:8) paying for his own sins.
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sandusky
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I’ve done that elsewhere, you can search for those posts if you’d like.
However, in keeping with the OP, ISTM that your position, as a Catholic, is that works are necessary, meritorious, and contribute to salvation; is that correct?
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davidv
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If by salvation, you mean my eventual entry into heaven, yes.
If by salvation, you mean the the freedom from the debt due to sin that was secured by Jesus’ suffering, death and and resurrection, no.
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heisenburg
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Sandusky…
Forgive me for not getting back to you sooner, but I am curious on how you can reduce my entire statement to what you did by taking ONE sentence out of context and using it as your 'Proof. Is this how you read scripture?
I said, as scripture does, Not doing what is right is a sin. If you continue to sin, you separate yourself from Christ. You seem to have intentionally twisted what I said to suit your needs.
I did NOT say we earn our way into heaven. But you twist what i said to say I do. What I said, if you honestly read what I wrote, says that we are require to turn away from sin, that we are not to continue to sin.
Are you going to honestly tell me that I can continue living in sin by NOT doing what is right as scripture says and still be saved?
We are saved by Grace, and part of the Grace is forgiveness…
Do you believe you can continue in your sin, unrepentant and be saved? If you do, you teach a false gospel…
DO you believe that you can continue to not do what is right and still be saved? If you do, you teach a false gospel…
What are works? doing what is right
For future reference… read what is written, not what you want to read.
All it does is show an argumentative and prideful nature. Not very Christianly qualities are they…
In Christ
Forgive me for not getting back to you sooner, but I am curious on how you can reduce my entire statement to what you did by taking ONE sentence out of context and using it as your 'Proof. Is this how you read scripture?
I said, as scripture does, Not doing what is right is a sin. If you continue to sin, you separate yourself from Christ. You seem to have intentionally twisted what I said to suit your needs.
I did NOT say we earn our way into heaven. But you twist what i said to say I do. What I said, if you honestly read what I wrote, says that we are require to turn away from sin, that we are not to continue to sin.
Are you going to honestly tell me that I can continue living in sin by NOT doing what is right as scripture says and still be saved?
We are saved by Grace, and part of the Grace is forgiveness…
Do you believe you can continue in your sin, unrepentant and be saved? If you do, you teach a false gospel…
DO you believe that you can continue to not do what is right and still be saved? If you do, you teach a false gospel…
What are works? doing what is right
For future reference… read what is written, not what you want to read.
All it does is show an argumentative and prideful nature. Not very Christianly qualities are they…
In Christ
S
sandusky
Guest
Heisenburg, I’ve gone back and looked at the posts in question.
I’ve not taken anything you’ve said out of context, in fact, I distilled your statements, and asked you if the distillation was a correct one; you never reponded either way; rather, you continued with further explanation and qualifications to your statements.
I again distilled your explanation and qualifications to the essential points that you made that were relevant to the OP.
Sorry you didn’t like that, but I offered you the opportunity to correct your statements, and you didn’t correct them; in fact, you still haven’t, but continue to explain, and qualify.
Are works necessary to salvation; are works meritorious, and contributory to salvation; yes,
or no?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Spoken in Aramaic, written much later in Greek and then privately interpreted again 1500 years after the Protestant revolution under a spirit of protest.
You need to go to tradition to understand what is at work here to get the benefit of insight from the apostolic succession of the men who actually lived, loved and followed Jesus. I get rather annoyed and impatient with the narrow minded fundamentalist mindset that gets fixated on the legalistic “spin” of “words”. The focus should be on ideas and principals - not cook book formulas and magic words. This is the problem with private interpretation - you get wrapped up in the limitations of self.
Did the apostles have the freewill in following Jesus? Yes of course they did. Peter had the freewill to deny Christ 3 times before He died and to later repent when given the opportunity to express to Christ 3 times that he loved Jesus. Judas had the freewill to betray Christ and elected to kill himself rather than ask for forgiveness since He did not imagine Jesus could ever forgive him.
Clearly to individual choice is at work in each of the faithful apostles in their choice to suffer torture and death rather than disavow Christ and to fight the good fight and run the good race to persevere in Christ till the end. Did they do this without cooperation and suffering? Nope. Did they sit back and wait for Jesus to rapture the elect to himself? Nope. They labored to cooperate with God’s grace to build on the cornerstone of God’s new kingdom on earth. They did not labor as slaves in Christ they labored as friend in Christ and died for a friend. They did not suffer and die out of duty they did so as a freewill act of love.
God does not dictate how we must love Him as if he would a slave. God calls us to express our love for Him in ways that we personally choose to express our love to Him knowing that greater love has no man than to lay down his life for a friend.
Did you not get baptised after you believed?
James
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