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VociMike
Guest
That’s nice, but nobody asked that question.
The question again is
What if anything in our power is necessary for our salvation?
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The question again is
What if anything in our power is necessary for our salvation?
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sandusky
Guest
How do you answer the question?That’s nice, but nobody asked that question.
The question again is
What if anything in our power is necessary for our salvation?
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teadough
Guest
:coffeeread:
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VociMike
Guest
The Catholic Church would answer the question “Cooperation with God’s grace is within our power and is necessary for salvation”.
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Syele
Guest
Saandusky, Is your answer “Nothing is necessary for slavation”?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I think the theology/exegesis here is getting wrapped around the axle trying to account for all the combinations of God’s Justice and God’s Mercy and resolve how it all rationally interacts. If we assume God’s Justice is Equal to His Mercy we can look at all the general cases that a soul can be held subject to at Judgment.
Case 1: Judgment not made at all
(No Justice and No Mercy applied – not possible for created human beings who all must stand before God with the possible exception of Jesus in His perfect humanity and Mary in her reserved and held special status?)
Case 2: Judgment made with no appeal to Justice and only to Mercy
(throwing oneself to the Mercy of the court by the merit’s of Christ – True Baptized Christians not dieing impenitent in grave sin and partaking of all the sacraments)
Case 3: Judgment made with respect to Justice only with no requested or permitted Mercy
(This is Pure Law; covenant Jews subject to the Law of Moses, all non-Christians)
**Case 4: Judgment made with equal Justice and with equal Mercy **
(Baptized Christians who are not in communion with The Church but have some merits or lawful non-Christians who have emulate Christian virtues & who may merit a portion of Christ’s Mercy)
I may add an example subsequently to show how I think God applies His Justice and Mercy at Judgment.
James
Case 1: Judgment not made at all
(No Justice and No Mercy applied – not possible for created human beings who all must stand before God with the possible exception of Jesus in His perfect humanity and Mary in her reserved and held special status?)
Case 2: Judgment made with no appeal to Justice and only to Mercy
(throwing oneself to the Mercy of the court by the merit’s of Christ – True Baptized Christians not dieing impenitent in grave sin and partaking of all the sacraments)
Case 3: Judgment made with respect to Justice only with no requested or permitted Mercy
(This is Pure Law; covenant Jews subject to the Law of Moses, all non-Christians)
**Case 4: Judgment made with equal Justice and with equal Mercy **
(Baptized Christians who are not in communion with The Church but have some merits or lawful non-Christians who have emulate Christian virtues & who may merit a portion of Christ’s Mercy)
I may add an example subsequently to show how I think God applies His Justice and Mercy at Judgment.
James
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sandusky
Guest
Thank you.
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sandusky
Guest
No.
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sandusky
Guest
Thanks, James; graciously, that’s an excellent articulation of the RC position. :tiphat:
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sandusky
Guest
From where does this “power of our’s” come?
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Church_Militant
Guest
It’s a response to God’s gifts of grace and faith.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
The consistent and recurring message all through old and new testament is about persevering in the face of trials and remaining faithful. Everything comes from the original power that God gave humanity through the gift of free will. Just as God let us fall from grace in the Garden through an act of freewill He offers us a choice through freewill to partake of the fruit of the tree of life (Jesus and the Eucharist) as a salvific remedy to the sin that humanity chose through disobedience. It’s all about holding hands with God and walking with Him in the dessert to find our way home. That requires trusting in Him and following Him every day of our lives and choosing not to rebel (as so many sects have done - just as the Jews had their falling aways in the dessert). The lesson is so profoundly easy and obvious.
Cooperate and choose to persevere daily and eat the bread of life until God returns us to the promised land. Those that want to think salvation is to be had in uttering “I believe” and didn’t walk the walk to get out of slavery in Egypt got left behind to slavery.
James
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guanophore
Guest
This is a very good question, and one that I was just meditating on yesterday. I thought of you, sandusky!
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13 RSV
13**[Not in your own strength] **for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight. Phil 2:12-13 AMP
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13 NASU
Although I rarely use it, I really like the amplified. It seems to flesh out the concept.
All things come from God, including the grace to effectually work. However, it is clear that we are to receive and cooperate with this grace.
katergazomai;
a. to perform, accomplish, achieve Rom 7:15,17 f, 20
b. to work out Phil 2:12
c. to fashion, i. e. render one fit for a thing: 2 Cor 5:5
(from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
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VociMike
Guest
Free will, by which we may choose to cooperate with God’s gifts, or choose to reject them.
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Angainor
Guest
On what basis do you make the claim that man will ever choose to cooperate with God? All evidence I have seen is to the contrary.The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Genesis 8:21
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Romans 8:7
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 1:28-31
On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses.
2 Corinthians 12:5
Man cannot boast cooperation with God as an accomplishment. Man would never freely choose to cooperate with God. Salvation is in every way a gift, open to anyone through the means of salvation.
I’ll say one last thing. All of that may not be wrapped up in a tidy philosophic bow that is satisfying to human wisdom*, but it is what is told to us through the word of God.
*The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14
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VociMike
Guest
Nobody is claiming salvation is anything other than a gift. But when you say it is open to anyone, then either everyone is saved, or we do something within our power to accept or reject that salvation.
It appears you are saying that there is something within our power that is necessary for salvation. Is that correct?
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Angainor
Guest
I boast of no such thing.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You are preaching a very gloomy message of a salvation that can not be had that implies that God can fail because humans are incapable of obedience. This completely flies in the face of history. It was by a few obedient humans cooperation with God that the power entered into Humanity to be saved. This was no doubt accomplished through divine grace - but this is exactly how God operates (just as he pours sunlight and rain onto crops to make them grow). Abraham cooperated with God and started a human branch favored by God by which we get the Davidic lineage. Mary cooperated with God and received into her through the Incarnation God’s seed which produced a new Humanity in Jesus - a new humanity (a new Adam) who is FULLY obedient to God. The one new perfect Human is what makes it possible for humans to be saved since Jesus gives us His very flesh and blood as a salvific fruit as an antidote to the poison of sin that seperated man from God originally.
Its so so very simple and easy. All we have to do is be obedient and be receptive to God’s grace, eat the new manna from heaven and persevere in the dessert of trials until Jesus leads us to The Promised Land. Open your eyes! Taste and See That the Lord is Good - LIVE and LIVE ETERNALLY as a new creation.
It’s time for JOY not gloom.
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
He is saying this in his heart but won’t say it because it goes against his own doctrine - which is unfortunately separating him from the truth.
All we humans need do is chose to take the gift that God gives us, cherish it, respect it and follow Jesus to God and present ourselves to God as a gift in return. God gives us through the gift of Jesus the only means (through the grace shed through Jesus) to make ourselves individually presentable and acceptable to Himself. In turn God makes us His children.
James
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guanophore
Guest
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