What is works salvation and why will it send people to hell?

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Angainor said:
I boast of no such thing.
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Who said anything about boasting?

What you said was that salvation was “open to anyone”. You didn’t say everyone will actually be saved (do you think they will?). Therefore, while salvation is “open to anyone,” not everyone will be saved. So, how is it that some are saved and some are not? What is different between those who are saved and those who are not?
 
VociMike said:
Who said anything about boasting?

What you said was that salvation was “open to anyone”. You didn’t say everyone will actually be saved (do you think they will?). Therefore, while salvation is “open to anyone,” not everyone will be saved. So, how is it that some are saved and some are not? What is different between those who are saved and those who are not?
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First of all, there are some who will never hear the Gospel.Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:17
Salvation is open to that person, so if a person has not yet heard the message, tell him! There is no accomplishment an individual can boast of regarding his own salvation, but the Church is an instrument of grace and one of its roles is proclaiming the Gospel.

As to the rest:
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13:18-23
A man receives the seed of faith. He does not choose the seed. Can the soil boast as an accomplishment the reception of the seed? If there is any work involved it is the work of the sower, who represents the Church—an instrument of Grace. Once the seed is received, there are many ways to fall away. A man can turn away the gift offered to him.
 
Angainor said:
Once the seed is received, there are many ways to fall away. A man can turn away the gift offered to him.
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That seems clear enough. It is presumably within our power to turn away the gift, or to accept the gift. And acceptance of this gift is necessary for salvation.

So, I think once more it has been established that something within our power is necessary for salvation.
 
VociMike said:
That seems clear enough. It is presumably within our power to turn away the gift, or to accept the gift. And acceptance of this gift is necessary for salvation.
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I presume nothing.
So, I think once more it has been established that something within our power is necessary for salvation.
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I presume you have nothing to base that on save your own presumptions. I believe the word of God teaches something different. It is not a two-way street. It is within our power to turn away the gift, but “accepting” the gift is no more an accomplishment than the [post=3301115]soil accepting the seed[/post].
 
I’ve read through this entire thread and I am pretty confused as well.
Angainor said:
First of all, there are some who will never hear the Gospel.Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:17
**Salvation is open to that person, so if a person has not yet heard the message, tell him! **There is no accomplishment an individual can boast of regarding his own salvation, but the Church is an instrument of grace and one of its roles is proclaiming the Gospel.
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(bolding is mine)

Why *should *I tell them? If they are saved regardless, what’s the point?
As to the rest:
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who **received **the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who **received **the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth **choke **it, making it unfruitful. But the one who **received **the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and **understands **it. He **produces **a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13:18-23
A man receives the seed of faith. He does not choose the seed. Can the soil boast as an accomplishment the reception of the seed? If there is any work involved it is the work of the sower, who represents the Church—an instrument of Grace. Once the seed is received, there are many ways to fall away. A man can turn away the gift offered to him.
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(bolding is mine)

This parable seems to indicate that there are 3 things that we can DO with the “seed.”

We can:

(a) Receive the “seed” with joy, but ***do ******nothing ***-- hence no “roots.”

(b) Receive the “seed,” but let our worries and trials “choke” the life out it.

(c) Receive the “seed,” understand what needs to be done with the seed, and in doing so *produce *a good crop.

You and sandusky seem to be indicating (a) is the way to go – all we have to do is receive the seed, and BAM! Nothing else is required of us – the simple act of receiving the seed is enough. However, the parable seems to indicate that this is NOT a good choice, because as a result there are no “roots.”

According to the parable, (c) is the best option and the one that will produce a fruitful crop.(C) also indicates that we should be WORKING in order to produce a good crop – but also knowing that the source of our good crop is NOT our own labor, but rather a result of the seed which we have received and cultivated.
 
Angainor said:
I presume nothing.I presume you have nothing to base that on save your own presumptions. I believe the word of God teaches something different. It is not a two-way street. It is within our power to turn away the gift, but “accepting” the gift is no more an accomplishment than the [post=3301115]soil accepting the seed[/post].
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So it is within our power to reject salvation, but not within our power to accept salvation? Do you realize how silly that sounds? 😃
 
VociMike said:
So it is within our power to reject salvation, but not within our power to accept salvation? Do you realize how silly that sounds? 😃
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One might say that it sounds like foolishness!
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14
 
Angainor said:
As to the rest:
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13:18-23

A man receives the seed of faith. He does not choose the seed. Can the soil boast as an accomplishment the reception of the seed? If there is any work involved it is the work of the sower, who represents the Church—an instrument of Grace. Once the seed is received, there are many ways to fall away. A man can turn away the gift offered to him.
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Yes, I think there are actions required for the one who receives the word:

James 1:19-25

19 Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

These instructions to those that are receiving the word are in the imperative (do this!) mode.
 
Angainor said:
One might say that it sounds like foolishness!
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14
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Come to think about it, this verse does explain a lot about anti-Catholics who call Catholic doctrines “foolish.” 🙂
 
Angainor said:
One might say that it sounds like foolishness!
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So your claim is that one may, of one’s own power, reject the gift of salvation? But that one may not, of one’s own power, accept the gift of salvation?
 
Angainor said:
A man receives the seed of faith. He does not choose the seed. Can the soil boast as an accomplishment the reception of the seed? If there is any work involved it is the work of the sower, who represents the Church—an instrument of Grace. Once the seed is received, there are many ways to fall away. A man can turn away the gift offered to him.

I think Angainor finally agreed that we must do something - we must choose to receive the seed just as Mary chose to received God’s seed in the Incarnation! BRAVO!!! No backsliding now.

Now, as for the other parts about the things that can make the seed not take root there are also implications of choices. We must cooperate with God’s grace to receive the rain and the sunshine necessary to keep the soil fertile (sacraments - especially the sacraments of baptism, reconciliation and Eucharist). We must not take the company of those who will choke off our access to truth or be too concerned with secular/worldly matters. We must not have rocky hearts and must love one another as Christ loves us (this comes though grace, prayer and as fruits of The Spirit). Everything requires our cooperation with God’s grace - “Our Daily Bread”. We must eat, drink and taste that The Lord is good (literally - The Eucharist, The Bread of Life) in the same manner that the Jews ate the manna in the dessert. We must love our neighbor as our self and we must love God with our whole heart. Do all these things and we certainly have no room to boast. I think you way overemphasize the bit about “boasting” where it almost becomes a flagellant sort of self worship on man’s sinful nature. The focus is on the choice of reaching out, opening up and receiving the seed of faith and trusting in God and daily cooperation with His work to get us out of banishment in the wilderness to our heavenly home. We know (from the Old Testament) that we will need God every step of the way as new temptation, hardships and trials meet us along the way to push us away from our path to the Promised Land. Some will lose heart and fall away or follow other men’s ideas. Those that persevere through the growing pains in faith and walk with God - get to the Promised Land. Those that fall behind or get lost Jesus will search out and bring back to the fold. But we also know that only a relative few (compared to those that are called - The Elect) make it all the way. Don’t miss this caravan…

James
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Angainor said:
…
…
[/INDENT]A man receives the seed of faith. He does not choose the seed. Can the soil boast as an accomplishment the reception of the seed? If there is any work involved it is the work of the sower, who represents the Church—an instrument of Grace. Once the seed is received, there are many ways to fall away. A man can turn away the gift offered to him.
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I think Angainor is onto something very Catholic in this post. Faith is a gift by way of grace. Eph 2:8-9 is instructive in this regard. Likewise, Angainor makes the Catholic point about falling away. Both of these points are illustrated in the following:

Romans 6:22-23
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Think about this passage.

The wages of sin is death.
This is what we do.

but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is what God does.
 
CentralFLJames said:
I think Angainor finally agreed that we must do something - we must choose to receive the seed …
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For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:6-8
Christ died for the ungodly. You can’t tell me that Christ died only for those who would willfully choose to receive the seed of faith.
And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Mark 2:17
 
Angainor said:
Yes
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I don’t think God has ever been one to “possess” or take over a soul. God has always operated through the mechanism of freewill. Love is not possessive - love is polite and knocks and waits for hospitality. God does not hijack anyone.

James
 
VociMike said:
I think what you assert is a logical impossibility.
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It* is unintuitive to be sure, but, I think, not logically impossible.

*The claim is that one may, of one’s own power, reject the gift of salvation, But that one may not, of one’s own power, accept the gift of salvation.
 
If Angainor is speaking of previent grace as the necessary component for us to accept the gift of faith as opposed to our willingly choosing without that grace, then I would agree with Angainor.

If, however, Angainor is suggesting that our free will, which we view as enabled by previent grace to accept the gift of faith, is inert and inactive then I would have to disagree.
 
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