What is works salvation and why will it send people to hell?

  • Thread starter Thread starter VociMike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Angainor said:
The answer is forever and eternally (b). You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. That is the grand conclusion to the sermon on the mount. Those are the entrance requirements.

By grace, Jesus offers forgiveness of our imperfections that would otherwise keep us out of heaven. There are no requirements that are within our power to fulfill, therefore this forgiveness is offered freely. All requirements have been fulfilled by Jesus. There is no requirement someone can boast to themselves as fulfilling, unless they are perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect, which they aren’t.
Click to expand...
OK, nothing within our power is required of us for salvation.

I think I’ll emphasize your answer.

Nothing within our power is required of us for salvation.

So, why aren’t all people saved?

Or, why aren’t all people damned?
 
VociMike said:
OK, nothing within our power is required of us for salvation.

I think I’ll emphasize your answer.

Nothing within our power is required of us for salvation.
Click to expand...
40.png
VociMike:
So, why aren’t all people saved?
Click to expand...
**Justice! 😦 **
40.png
VociMike:
Or, why aren’t all people damned?
Click to expand...
Mercy! :extrahappy:
 
VociMike said:
Then all people should be damned, not just some.

Then all people should be saved, not just some.

We’re right back where we started. I’m amazed that you think these answers address the question.
Click to expand...
It’s a Calvinist way to look at it. He is talking about Unconditional Election.
Unconditional Election God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Click to expand...
 
Syele said:
It’s a Calvinist way to look at it. He is talking about Unconditional Election.
Click to expand...
Yes, and very consistent in its own way, right up until one asks “why aren’t all saved? why aren’t all damned?” Then it becomes entirely arbitrary, entirely capricious.
 
VociMike said:
Yes, and very consistent in its own way, right up until one asks “why aren’t all saved? why aren’t all damned?” Then it becomes entirely arbitrary, entirely capricious.
Click to expand...
The docrtine itself states it’s arbitrary. Is not God sovereign? Can he not choose randomly if He so choses?*

*Disclaimer: I’m not Calvinist! Just am very familiar with it.
 
VociMike said:
sandusky said:
Justice! 😦
Click to expand...
Then all people should be damned, not just some.
Click to expand...

That is exactly correct. All people should be damned.
VociMike said:
sandusky said:
Mercy! :extrahappy:
Click to expand...
Then all people should be saved, not just some.
Click to expand...

Who are you to say who God should show mercy to? If God showed mercy to nobody, there would be no room to complain because all deserve death. If God showed mercy to one person, the rest would have no cause to complain because they deserve death.

As it is, God has indeed shown mercy to everyone.The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29
The gift of forgiveness is for everyone. We are to go tell everyone this gift and tell them about the means to receive this gift through the Church.
 
Angainor said:
The gift of forgiveness is for everyone. We are to go tell everyone this gift and tell them about the means to receive this gift through the Church.
Click to expand...
Whoa! Wait a minute, you said that nothing in our power is required for salvation. No you say that people must be told about some means to receive salvation.

So which is it? Is nothing in our power required for salvation? Or is something in our power required for salvation, to avail ourselves of this “means”?
 
Syele said:
The docrtine itself states it’s arbitrary. Is not God sovereign? Can he not choose randomly if He so choses?*

*Disclaimer: I’m not Calvinist! Just am very familiar with it.
Click to expand...
Right, noted. It’s all very logical until you ask them the unanswerable question, and then they get very huffy and ask who the heck are you to tell God what to do? 🙂
 
Protestants (or at least most Protestants) apparently do not believe in reparation for sin. I never heard the term “reparation” while I was Protestant. Also, Protestants do not believe in indulgences. So when Catholics do acts that they hope will result in a plenary indulgence, Protestants accuse them of putting their faith in the works themselves to save them rather than trusting Jesus to save them by the grace of God.

Protestants also think that sacramentals such as medals and scapulars are just superstition, and that Catholics who wear them are trusting in the sacramental for salvation rather than in God. Of course, trusting in the sacramental alone would be superstition and a sin and Catholics know this, but Protestants don’t know that Catholics know this.
 
Angainor said:
Nobody needs to sit around and hope they are saved. They can trust Jesus’ promise that sins really are forgiven through the gifts offered through the Church. The bread and wine of the sacrament really were shed for the forgiveness of sin. People can trust that with confidence.

People need to know Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins. Evangelization is spreading the good news that Christ did just that. People need to know about the free gifts offered through the Church.
Click to expand...
I hate to break this to you, Angainor, but bread and wine were not shed for the forgiveness of sin. this is not scriptural, and not apostolic teaching.🤷
 
guanophore said:
I hate to break this to you, Angainor, but bread and wine were not shed for the forgiveness of sin. this is not scriptural, and not apostolic teaching.🤷
Click to expand...
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28
 
Angainor said:
The gift of forgiveness is for everyone. We are to go tell everyone this gift and tell them about the means to receive this gift through the Church.
Click to expand...
Wait, you are saying EVERYONE is forgiven? I’m not following at all.

IF you believe in Unconditional election then not everyone is forgiven… thus JUSTICE. only some are fogiven… thus MERCY.

Do you believe there is a hell? If not, what are people saved from? IF so, what is it’s purpose if everyone is forgiven?

If you mean people must accept God’s forgiveness, then election is conditional.
 
Angainor said:
No, I am saying forgiveness is for everyone, but not everyone will eat of this bread.
Click to expand...
why do you believe it is for everyone? that is inconsistant with the other things you have said:
There are no requirements that are within our power to fulfill, therefore this forgiveness is offered freely. All requirements have been fulfilled by Jesus. There is no requirement someone can boast to themselves as fulfilling, unless they are perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect, which they aren’t.
Click to expand...
If no one can accpt it onm thier own and God elects His chosen people arbitrarily, then there is not need for Jesus to die for the non-elect. not only is there no need for it, it is unreasonable.
Charles H. Spurgeon said: If Christ has died for you, you can never be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sins He will not punish you. `Payment God’s justice cannot twice demand; first, at the bleeding Saviour’s hand, and then again at mine.’ How can God be just if he punished Christ, the substitute, and then man himself afterward
Click to expand...
So did Christ Die for EVERYONE or is there no requirement to fullfulll for salvation? It is an either or thing unless you believe that ALL people go to heaven.
 
40.png
VociMike:
Then all people should be damned, not just some.
Then all people should be saved, not just some.

We’re right back where we started. I’m amazed that you think these answers address the question.
Click to expand...
I’m not at all amazed that you’re amazed.

What you are articulating is anthropocentrism—placing man at the center of all things (cf your thinking with Col 1:16).

You should spend more time trying to understand God’s revelation, and less time trying to be clever in your thinking, IMO.
40.png
VociMike:
Yes, and very consistent in its own way, right up until one asks “why aren’t all saved? why aren’t all damned?” Then it becomes entirely arbitrary, entirely capricious.
Click to expand...
This further demonstrates your faulty theology, again, IMO.**Psalm 115:3

But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Daniel 4:35

“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’

Ephesians 1:11

…also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will**God is purposeful; He is not capricious; God has revealed that His purpose is the only purpose that matters.
40.png
VociMike:
Whoa! Wait a minute, you said that nothing in our power is required for salvation. Now you say that people must be told about some means to receive salvation.
Click to expand...
It’s called the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
sandusky said:
It’s called the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
How does this relate to what, if anything, that is in our power, is necessary for our salvation?

If nothing in our power is necessary for salvation, then hearing, obeying or otherwise responding to the gospel is not required for our salvation.

Just to keep the question at hand in focus:

Is there anything which is in our power that is necessary for our salvation?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top